Now what??
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Chill III
OK one more post and then I'll scurry back into hibernation for the remainder of the winter - unless a good juicy debate comes along.
Many of the EK contributors have an agenda. It is believed that if recruitment dries up EK will be "forced" to address some of our issues. The argument initially appears to have some merit and therefore it is in the interests of these individuals to discourage people such as yourself who display some interest.
I would posit that the major issues concerning EK discussed on this site are:
1. Flight Time Limiations
2. Rest
3. Rostering
4. Remuneration.
There are slated to be 2 deliveries/month starting shortly (1X777 & 1X380). I have not heard anyone on prune suggest that these should be suspended or delayed. So I'm not sure how discouraging potential recruits will positively affect #1 through #3. It will definitely have an immediate effect on #4 as sadly we will all find ourselves flying more and "earning" additional flight or productivity pay. Standby for the siren call of resignations - yeah right! Some will, some won't but it will not be enough to force any significant changes.
As for the remuneration issue it takes closer analysis.
I hope my suppositions are reasonably on point and relate only to A320 and other US pilots. Due to exchange rate fluctuations and a weak US$ the following analysis does not apply to most other nationalties.
You make US$80K/annum on a narrow body 'bus for a US major. You should take home approximately $5K/month out of which you pay for all of your expenses. Unless you own your home "free and clear" your monthly accomadation expenses are probably between $1.5K and $2.5/month. Effectively your disposable income is approximately $3k/month.
Starting take home pay for an F/O at EK in a flying month is approximately US$6k which is essentially "disposable" income. From this money you pay for transportation, food, clothing, 10% school fees, extracurricular activities for your kids, and recreation. All of these things have increased in the last few years because of the unprecedented inflation being currently experienced in the UAE. A family of 4 will spend approximately US$250/week at the supermarket here it's probably 20% cheaper in the US. Gas is cheaper here - period. Most families have only 1 car as we are driven to and from work in company transportation so an "airporter" is not required. Take a drive around DSO where there are open carports and you will see everything from Renaults to Range Rovers and car's tend to be slightly cheaper here. The expensive item in relation to the US is recreation. My pet peeve is golf. We used to have a wonderful deal at Nad Al Sheba but that course was closed as a result of the juggernaut of Dubai growth. Golf is now expensive in DXB resulting in 1-2 hour drives to adjoining emirates.
As long as you come to EK with no major overseas expenses the money isn't bad in relation to the $80K you are currently making.
I'll leave you to analyse the vicisitudes (correct spelling?) of the US industry especially heading into a recession. I see NWA and Delta are talking merger.
As I said before you appear to have made your decision based on Pprune and if that is the case it's like performing a go-around from 1500ft because there are clouds in the vicinity. Get the ATIS, check the radar, see what landing aircraft in front of you are doing, speak to ATC, and then go take a look. It might be clear or it might be IMC - you can always announce "GO AROUND-TOGA-FLAPS 1".
Standing by for incoming.
Scaglietti
Many of the EK contributors have an agenda. It is believed that if recruitment dries up EK will be "forced" to address some of our issues. The argument initially appears to have some merit and therefore it is in the interests of these individuals to discourage people such as yourself who display some interest.
I would posit that the major issues concerning EK discussed on this site are:
1. Flight Time Limiations
2. Rest
3. Rostering
4. Remuneration.
There are slated to be 2 deliveries/month starting shortly (1X777 & 1X380). I have not heard anyone on prune suggest that these should be suspended or delayed. So I'm not sure how discouraging potential recruits will positively affect #1 through #3. It will definitely have an immediate effect on #4 as sadly we will all find ourselves flying more and "earning" additional flight or productivity pay. Standby for the siren call of resignations - yeah right! Some will, some won't but it will not be enough to force any significant changes.
As for the remuneration issue it takes closer analysis.
I hope my suppositions are reasonably on point and relate only to A320 and other US pilots. Due to exchange rate fluctuations and a weak US$ the following analysis does not apply to most other nationalties.
You make US$80K/annum on a narrow body 'bus for a US major. You should take home approximately $5K/month out of which you pay for all of your expenses. Unless you own your home "free and clear" your monthly accomadation expenses are probably between $1.5K and $2.5/month. Effectively your disposable income is approximately $3k/month.
Starting take home pay for an F/O at EK in a flying month is approximately US$6k which is essentially "disposable" income. From this money you pay for transportation, food, clothing, 10% school fees, extracurricular activities for your kids, and recreation. All of these things have increased in the last few years because of the unprecedented inflation being currently experienced in the UAE. A family of 4 will spend approximately US$250/week at the supermarket here it's probably 20% cheaper in the US. Gas is cheaper here - period. Most families have only 1 car as we are driven to and from work in company transportation so an "airporter" is not required. Take a drive around DSO where there are open carports and you will see everything from Renaults to Range Rovers and car's tend to be slightly cheaper here. The expensive item in relation to the US is recreation. My pet peeve is golf. We used to have a wonderful deal at Nad Al Sheba but that course was closed as a result of the juggernaut of Dubai growth. Golf is now expensive in DXB resulting in 1-2 hour drives to adjoining emirates.
As long as you come to EK with no major overseas expenses the money isn't bad in relation to the $80K you are currently making.
I'll leave you to analyse the vicisitudes (correct spelling?) of the US industry especially heading into a recession. I see NWA and Delta are talking merger.
As I said before you appear to have made your decision based on Pprune and if that is the case it's like performing a go-around from 1500ft because there are clouds in the vicinity. Get the ATIS, check the radar, see what landing aircraft in front of you are doing, speak to ATC, and then go take a look. It might be clear or it might be IMC - you can always announce "GO AROUND-TOGA-FLAPS 1".
Standing by for incoming.
Scaglietti
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Just having fun giving our views!
Many of the EK contributors have an agenda
It will definitely have an immediate effect on #4 as sadly we will all find ourselves flying more and "earning" additional flight or productivity pay.
Okay Okay I'll stop here... ( I could go on i think...
)So what is your agenda scaglietti? Getting more US pilot to join EK?
Sorry! It was just to tempting
"Maybe some EK contributors with and agenda" just want the true facts out there so people with good jobs know exactly what's going on at EK before they decide to throw away years of seniority in a company to come over here. We are actually just having fun on a rumour network. We don't have any agenda... Come on, we ALL love our job! Keep Discovering!
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scaglietti,
When I came here there was 25 airplanes or so, the company has since expanded and then hired all the guys they needed, they did not suffered a pilot shortage.
That still did not prevent a deterioration of: Rosters, flight time limitations, salaries(relative to cost of living and exchange rate), vacations, etc.
So trying to prevent guys from coming would not help. Encouraging guys to come, will not help neither, and has never helped in the past.
This is not the "agenda", just read the different threads, they are factual.
Coming here is not just about money, and also involves more expenses than living back in the North America. Many threads refer to it, with credible references.
If I had to join today, I would like to know these things. And if you think they're not true, please feel free to expose the FACTS.
When I came here there was 25 airplanes or so, the company has since expanded and then hired all the guys they needed, they did not suffered a pilot shortage.
That still did not prevent a deterioration of: Rosters, flight time limitations, salaries(relative to cost of living and exchange rate), vacations, etc.
So trying to prevent guys from coming would not help. Encouraging guys to come, will not help neither, and has never helped in the past.
This is not the "agenda", just read the different threads, they are factual.
Coming here is not just about money, and also involves more expenses than living back in the North America. Many threads refer to it, with credible references.
If I had to join today, I would like to know these things. And if you think they're not true, please feel free to expose the FACTS.
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Chill IV
I know, I know I did say something about hibernation but it's 27c outside and severe clear so I guess winter is just about over.
I appreciate the responses but I' d really like to hear from A320 - when he wakes up it's only 6:15 am on the East Coast. I think I'm going to stand behind my analysis of the financial situation. I lived and worked (as a pilot) there for many years and still have a lot of family living there.
My agenda? I really didn't think I had one but I guess it's not to have this guy make a decision based solely on our prune debates. Fair enough?
I also enjoy blogging it's like debating without the potential for violence.
Nobody should base their decision based solely on supposed potential riches in DXB. But they should really have full info - don't you think?
Fully awake now and hungry.
Scaglietti
I appreciate the responses but I' d really like to hear from A320 - when he wakes up it's only 6:15 am on the East Coast. I think I'm going to stand behind my analysis of the financial situation. I lived and worked (as a pilot) there for many years and still have a lot of family living there.
My agenda? I really didn't think I had one but I guess it's not to have this guy make a decision based solely on our prune debates. Fair enough?
I also enjoy blogging it's like debating without the potential for violence.
Nobody should base their decision based solely on supposed potential riches in DXB. But they should really have full info - don't you think?
Fully awake now and hungry.
Scaglietti
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A320PLT
Hi. No agenda from me.
If they offer you the ticket, come and have a look. You owe it to yourself to make a more informed decision and ultimately, whatever you read here, you can get a better feel by coming and having a look.
Good luck
Hi. No agenda from me.
If they offer you the ticket, come and have a look. You owe it to yourself to make a more informed decision and ultimately, whatever you read here, you can get a better feel by coming and having a look.
Good luck
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Couldn't have put it better myself, Helen...unfortunately I decided to used the 10 days off I had created with our trip-trade system here in the US to go on vacation with the Missus to our house in the Caribbean which I bought with our 'measly' after-tax US earnings instead of going to EK's interview. 10 days off in a row....just think....now that's something you can no longer do at EK and that's what was the clincher for me.
Scaglietti is absolutely correct to keep the debate fair and balanced, though, and I support him for that. Having been in recruitment myself once, I cannot endorse wasting EK's time and tickets to make a vacation in Dubai, but that's just me.
320 good luck whatever your choice. EK are better than many, believe me.
instead of going to EK's interview. 10 days off in a row....just think....now that's something you can no longer do at EK and that's what was the clincher for me. Scaglietti is absolutely correct to keep the debate fair and balanced, though, and I support him for that. Having been in recruitment myself once, I cannot endorse wasting EK's time and tickets to make a vacation in Dubai, but that's just me.
320 good luck whatever your choice. EK are better than many, believe me.
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I'm awake gents and have been most of the night due to this damn cold!! I hate these things, cause me to toss and turn all night long.
Addressing one issue of my salary, yes we do own a home of which I planned to rent out if I were offered a position with EK. Never sell your property. Yes things are rough here in the states regarding airlines that is no secret. We were the object of a merger 2yrs ago of which the seniority issues for one group are still not over even though a third party arbitrator has already ruled on the case.
I am if I'm lucky about 8 more yrs away from an upgrade on the Bus. More mergers and more uncertainity were some of the driving forces to my looking at both Emirates and Etihad. I was leaning more toward EY and before you guys hand me my head let me explain. EY is the new kid on the block so they are going to have all the growing pains that EK had 20 yrs ago but they do get worked out as EK is a glowing example. EY pays close to $13k US more per year and I felt that the upgrade time would be about half of what EK's was. I'm 41 now and hope to be in command by 45, that just isn't going to happen here in the states. I do have my family here my roots are all here and is my flying and or upgrading worth much of what I will have to give up?
I don't know guys. I have buy in from my wife which is key because without that this discussion wouldn't not be happening. Can I subject her and my 8yr to an entirely new way of life and living? Many things sound so good on the surface but under the surface is what you want to see, it's what you need to see!! I had already insulted people that I had no idea I was ever insulting in the first place.
Then there is the real make or break for me. NFL season and my being able to see not one or two but EVERY Dallas Cowboy game, something I've done for the past 12yrs. That in and of it'self is a deal breaker
A320
Addressing one issue of my salary, yes we do own a home of which I planned to rent out if I were offered a position with EK. Never sell your property. Yes things are rough here in the states regarding airlines that is no secret. We were the object of a merger 2yrs ago of which the seniority issues for one group are still not over even though a third party arbitrator has already ruled on the case.
I am if I'm lucky about 8 more yrs away from an upgrade on the Bus. More mergers and more uncertainity were some of the driving forces to my looking at both Emirates and Etihad. I was leaning more toward EY and before you guys hand me my head let me explain. EY is the new kid on the block so they are going to have all the growing pains that EK had 20 yrs ago but they do get worked out as EK is a glowing example. EY pays close to $13k US more per year and I felt that the upgrade time would be about half of what EK's was. I'm 41 now and hope to be in command by 45, that just isn't going to happen here in the states. I do have my family here my roots are all here and is my flying and or upgrading worth much of what I will have to give up?
I don't know guys. I have buy in from my wife which is key because without that this discussion wouldn't not be happening. Can I subject her and my 8yr to an entirely new way of life and living? Many things sound so good on the surface but under the surface is what you want to see, it's what you need to see!! I had already insulted people that I had no idea I was ever insulting in the first place.
Then there is the real make or break for me. NFL season and my being able to see not one or two but EVERY Dallas Cowboy game, something I've done for the past 12yrs. That in and of it'self is a deal breaker
A320
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We were the object of a merger 2yrs ago of which the seniority issues for one group are still not over even though a third party arbitrator has already ruled on the case.
Even though we are not on the list any longer that grossly unfair integration has severely impacted the lives of good friends and will forever be a bone of contention. I worked overseas during a furlough in the 90s and even though I was a Captain I always said I would go back to USAirways because it was better to be a first officer for a major in the USA than a Captain for a foreign airline. When the time came I did go back and had a few good years with no regrets ( save the occasional
head captain ). If I had a job with a Phoenix base; lived in California; and just received a lottery windfall seniority integration you wouldn't find me looking to move to the desert.
Typhoonpilot
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I guess that would be great if in fact I hit the lottery or even received a windfall but I didn't. Here is what I got, I am, was in the same place the day after the award that I was in the day before!! We got no windfall and if we did I certainly can't see it. I am now as result of the save the failure effort known USAir further away from my upgrade then I was when I got hired!! In my opinion the east pilots got way more out of this then they ever deserved seeing as how they were headed for the street.
Sorry man really sore subject with me and this is not supposed to be the place to debate this issue...
Good day bro.
Sorry man really sore subject with me and this is not supposed to be the place to debate this issue...
Good day bro.
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I guess that would be great if in fact I hit the lottery or even received a windfall but I didn't. Here is what I got, I am, was in the same place the day after the award that I was in the day before!! We got no windfall and if we did I certainly can't see it. I am now as result of the save the failure effort known USAir further away from my upgrade then I was when I got hired!! In my opinion the east pilots got way more out of this then they ever deserved seeing as how they were headed for the street.
Sorry man really sore subject with me and this is not supposed to be the place to debate this issue...
Sorry man really sore subject with me and this is not supposed to be the place to debate this issue...
I would guess, based on what you've written here, that you were a 2004 ( plus or minus one year ) hire date at AWA. You are now senior to pilots hired in 1987/88 ( a 17 year jump in seniority ). The East pilots will be retiring at the rate of over 200/year for the next decade+. Those captain spots that should have gone to 1987 through 1990 hire dates will be yours for the taking. You're unhappy about that?
I'll agree that the West has seen some short term stagnation, but you've only been there for 4 years. Have some patience, an airline career is not a sprint. How would you feel at Emirates when pilots hired after you get a shot at command before you ? That would include Fast Track commands and Direct Entry Commands. I just don't see how you could be happy in a place like Emirates where people junior to you will get a shot at command before you when you are in the exact opposite position at AWA and are already unhappy.
The guys who are generally happy at Emirates are ones who tend to see the bright side of things. Realistically, those who know how bad others places are through experience. Emirates isn't nirvana or paradise by any stretch. It is a good job, but if you concentrate on the negative you'll find yourself in the exact same mood you are in now.
Typhoonpilot
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You know Tim, I thought about responding like I would to your fellow usapa brethren but then what would be the point. I'm not going to rehash that whole arbitration case for you or read you the transcripts. Instead of your being greatful that you left behind a situation and moved you and your family to greener pastures you decide to attack me unprovoked mind you about a subject that has NOTHING to do with EK now does it?? That Tim speaks volumes about the man!!
I will leave you with this, I wish you and your family nothing but the best. This conversation like the binding arbitration that you and your comrades agreed to is over! I will no longer respond to this subject.
Have a pleasent day.
A320
I will leave you with this, I wish you and your family nothing but the best. This conversation like the binding arbitration that you and your comrades agreed to is over! I will no longer respond to this subject.
Have a pleasent day.
A320
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Realizing that the written word doesn't show inflection and/or tone of voice one might see what I've written as an attack. It was not. What I've written was advice and observations. If you choose to see it as an attack instead of giving it thoughtful reflection that is up to you.
TP
TP
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And I thought the 1989 Australian pilots were bitter!
320.... If you have a wife and an 8year old child and like to attend the football match for 12 years I suggest unless you realy want more agro and a divorce you forget about the Middle East and I speak as an English man who flew there for 26years....good place for a single guy to save money and gain experiance.
320.... If you have a wife and an 8year old child and like to attend the football match for 12 years I suggest unless you realy want more agro and a divorce you forget about the Middle East and I speak as an English man who flew there for 26years....good place for a single guy to save money and gain experiance.
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Chill V
Who knew the word "vicisitude" (correct spelling?) would cause such problems.
A320 I'm coming around to the opinion of some of the previous posts. An EK way of life may not be to your liking. What you see here is the modern day version of debating - the first rule of which is never let them see you sweat. Besides it's definitely not possible to see every Cowboys game live and you'd have to stay up until the wee hours if you could.
Scaglietti
A320 I'm coming around to the opinion of some of the previous posts. An EK way of life may not be to your liking. What you see here is the modern day version of debating - the first rule of which is never let them see you sweat. Besides it's definitely not possible to see every Cowboys game live and you'd have to stay up until the wee hours if you could.
Scaglietti
Can you imagine what it would be like to fly with this guy????????? Pissed off at the world. Not to mention that the Cowgirls only play 16 games a year. He must be a JOY to be around.
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Forget it 320
Frankly your attitude does not really fit into this environment pal. People try to give you advice, read your answers. And finally you attacked Typhoonpilot, a well known person in this and other forums. I never read anything he said that was not true, stupid or arrogant. You gained and still you just try to jump ahead. If you want to come to the sandpit then you need to learn the law of the land and do not open your mouth before you know what the shot is. That helps
