Emirates - New Conditions
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The only difference between a commuting roster with confirmed seats and a basing, is that the commuting roster starts in Dubai.
I think all parties would prefer the pilot to work the sector when possible, although sometimes a positioning sector will be required. Commuting in Emirates will involve a lot of dead time and it is NOT a good long term solution for the majority.
Korean have basings but typically (correct me if I'm wrong) deadheads pilots to the base. It isn't an attractive option to me for that reason, I'd prefer to operate and be productive which = more days off.
Cathay bases pilots and some bases are more popular than others, but it works and they are a similar size to Emirates. F/O's on a base have to return to HKG for a command, some defer commands for the lifestyle option. It appears that most pilots could have taken a base in some form in the last ten years. I also heard that they offered temporary bases as well, another option.
There is a lot more to basings than meets the eye. To be content with tickets for commuting is way too simplistic in my book.
I think all parties would prefer the pilot to work the sector when possible, although sometimes a positioning sector will be required. Commuting in Emirates will involve a lot of dead time and it is NOT a good long term solution for the majority.
Korean have basings but typically (correct me if I'm wrong) deadheads pilots to the base. It isn't an attractive option to me for that reason, I'd prefer to operate and be productive which = more days off.
Cathay bases pilots and some bases are more popular than others, but it works and they are a similar size to Emirates. F/O's on a base have to return to HKG for a command, some defer commands for the lifestyle option. It appears that most pilots could have taken a base in some form in the last ten years. I also heard that they offered temporary bases as well, another option.
There is a lot more to basings than meets the eye. To be content with tickets for commuting is way too simplistic in my book.
Last edited by atiuta; 19th Jan 2007 at 10:18. Reason: sp
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atiuta,
I agree with some of what you say. The big difference though is that the troops that scream for basings are mainly the same nationalities. I think most of them are actually Ozzies and Kiwis, some English/European.
If you look at the Ozzies, that would mean that only a small amount of people would be able to be based home. They would do the most of the Ozzie flights, leaving the rest of us with no flights there (which might be home as well) and doing the cr@p to Japan, India, Middle East, Africa,...
Basings as you put it, would be only a good thing to a minority, giving the majority a headache and a roster which is even worse then now.
A second problem would be that of equipment change. If we look at Oz flights again. SYD is done on the A345 now, but will in the near future apparently change to the B777. In a few years, it is most probable that the A380 will go on that route. How would you accomodate for those changes on a basing system?
A commuting roster on the other hand will give everybody a fair chance to bid for destinations and it doesn't really matter on what equipment you passenger home for your 2 weeks or so off.
I think if you want to reach something (in any company), you have to come with a reasonable well thought and proof proposal which has little or no flaws. Otherwise it's too easy for the management to disregard whatever you came up with.
Personally I think basings as you put it, are a step too far from where we are now. Although I don't say that it would be impossible in the future.
But wasn't the thread about the new conditions?
I hear that colleagues are actually very pleased with the 18% payrise. Please guys, before screaming around that we have 18%, do the math. On a realistic yearly roster, you will have a payrise of around 14%, not more, probably a bit less. Whether or no you are happy with this payrise, that's completely up to you, but don't go yell around the wrong numbers. If someone could PM me some rosters of last year with their grade and seniority, I'd be happy to work out the REAL payrise.
MR8
I agree with some of what you say. The big difference though is that the troops that scream for basings are mainly the same nationalities. I think most of them are actually Ozzies and Kiwis, some English/European.
If you look at the Ozzies, that would mean that only a small amount of people would be able to be based home. They would do the most of the Ozzie flights, leaving the rest of us with no flights there (which might be home as well) and doing the cr@p to Japan, India, Middle East, Africa,...
Basings as you put it, would be only a good thing to a minority, giving the majority a headache and a roster which is even worse then now.
A second problem would be that of equipment change. If we look at Oz flights again. SYD is done on the A345 now, but will in the near future apparently change to the B777. In a few years, it is most probable that the A380 will go on that route. How would you accomodate for those changes on a basing system?
A commuting roster on the other hand will give everybody a fair chance to bid for destinations and it doesn't really matter on what equipment you passenger home for your 2 weeks or so off.
I think if you want to reach something (in any company), you have to come with a reasonable well thought and proof proposal which has little or no flaws. Otherwise it's too easy for the management to disregard whatever you came up with.
Personally I think basings as you put it, are a step too far from where we are now. Although I don't say that it would be impossible in the future.
But wasn't the thread about the new conditions?
I hear that colleagues are actually very pleased with the 18% payrise. Please guys, before screaming around that we have 18%, do the math. On a realistic yearly roster, you will have a payrise of around 14%, not more, probably a bit less. Whether or no you are happy with this payrise, that's completely up to you, but don't go yell around the wrong numbers. If someone could PM me some rosters of last year with their grade and seniority, I'd be happy to work out the REAL payrise.
MR8
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Its a 6 % Payrise
The start of the tread was correct its a 6% pay rise...try telling your bank manager you have more than that and show him the paper work its 6 % pay rise guys
Short summary
6% on basic
3% for those eligible (increment)
45 dhs/hr flying pay for Captains
35 dhs/hr flying pay for F/O's
Both of the above are up to the present productivity levels
Review of education/utilities allowances
Review for training and management pilots
Effective 01 May 2007.
Just the facts.
6% on basic
3% for those eligible (increment)
45 dhs/hr flying pay for Captains
35 dhs/hr flying pay for F/O's
Both of the above are up to the present productivity levels
Review of education/utilities allowances
Review for training and management pilots
Effective 01 May 2007.
Just the facts.
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The basings and or commuting type rosters will only come about when they need to use that trump card to attract new joiners.We will soon be car pooling and doing more pick ups on the way with the extra time they have bought themselves.The DSO guys will be using a bus system.The list goes on and on.Did I mention the 1000 hrs a year.You guys need to understand very rarely do things like flight pay and payrises come for free around here.
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Muttley Crew:
Pretty sure you're incorrect here. My wife does not get driven to work and I have friends working in DXB who are doctors, engineers and mid-level executives at several companies who do not get driven to work.
As far as I know, EK cannot do away with the transport altogther as someone theorised. It's a gov't requirement here, just like it is for the busloads of jinglies you see over-turned on the SZR from time to time. Only difference is we only squeeze two pax in.
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My money is with M.C. Dune
The norm in Dubai is that a Transport Allowance or Transport is provided. Check out the Grapeshisha web site for some general job info on Dubai
The UAE labor Law is on line here trawled through it there was only section 101
Article 101
Each employer employing workers in areas remote from towns and not covered by regular means of transport shall provide his workers with the following services:
1- Suitable means of transport.
The norm in Dubai is that a Transport Allowance or Transport is provided. Check out the Grapeshisha web site for some general job info on Dubai
The UAE labor Law is on line here trawled through it there was only section 101
Article 101
Each employer employing workers in areas remote from towns and not covered by regular means of transport shall provide his workers with the following services:
1- Suitable means of transport.
Louise Roselle, one of the attorneys representing victims' families, said the pilots' conversation about searching for other jobs reinforces one of the central issues in the lawsuits related to the crash.
"It reinforces how Comair has been treating its pilots," Roselle said.
---
Associated Press writer Brett Barrouquere in Louisville, Ky., contributed to this report.
Did long range Ed ever work for Comair?
Don
"It reinforces how Comair has been treating its pilots," Roselle said.
---
Associated Press writer Brett Barrouquere in Louisville, Ky., contributed to this report.
Did long range Ed ever work for Comair?
Don
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Living in sunny Dubai
The core of the issue is that many of the guys (not just the old-timers) do not want their families to live in Dubai. The reasons may vary, but it is a personal decision. If you love living in Dubai - good on yer. Enjoy it.
Is management going to accept this and deal with it, or bury their heads in the sand? The future of the airline may well depend on how this issue is handled.
How about trying a long term experiment? Call a series of meeting (on a day off naturally) for anyone intersted to come and discuss the pros and cons.Try commute/remote rostering for at least 10 months (two roster cycles). The main commute destinations will probably be LHR/LGW/MAN/FRA/MUC/DUS/ZRH/SYD/MEL/JNB. All these places have two flights day, allow three days a week for training/line bids and block the remaining four days for the commuters.
Assign rosters (no bidding) for the guys who want to participate in the experiment. Guarantee that they will spend ten days at base (two blocks of 5) per month. Put two of the more competent schedulers in charge of crewing the flights as efficiently possible, operate or deadhead (jumpseat) depending on what is feasible.
Revisit after ten months and analyse. Publish the figures and have another forum to discuss it. Ensure the whole process is transparent and cost-neutral. Then plan for the long-term. Reallistically we can't have bases until the 380/777 is all sorted out and we know where the aircraft go. But if we try it this year, we will be better informed when the bases become reality in 2008/09.
Of course I am only dreaming, none of this will evr happen
Is management going to accept this and deal with it, or bury their heads in the sand? The future of the airline may well depend on how this issue is handled.
How about trying a long term experiment? Call a series of meeting (on a day off naturally) for anyone intersted to come and discuss the pros and cons.Try commute/remote rostering for at least 10 months (two roster cycles). The main commute destinations will probably be LHR/LGW/MAN/FRA/MUC/DUS/ZRH/SYD/MEL/JNB. All these places have two flights day, allow three days a week for training/line bids and block the remaining four days for the commuters.
Assign rosters (no bidding) for the guys who want to participate in the experiment. Guarantee that they will spend ten days at base (two blocks of 5) per month. Put two of the more competent schedulers in charge of crewing the flights as efficiently possible, operate or deadhead (jumpseat) depending on what is feasible.
Revisit after ten months and analyse. Publish the figures and have another forum to discuss it. Ensure the whole process is transparent and cost-neutral. Then plan for the long-term. Reallistically we can't have bases until the 380/777 is all sorted out and we know where the aircraft go. But if we try it this year, we will be better informed when the bases become reality in 2008/09.
Of course I am only dreaming, none of this will evr happen
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Some interesting postings on the thread. It seems that the predominant issue is about having the family in Dubai. I totally agree. The city is developing a hostile environment for the kids and the missus once she gets fed up with Karama or the MoE. To know they have to venture on Dubai’s roads every day becomes unbearable and if you want to choose either school or home to minimize this impact, you’re confronted with unbearable costs and timeframes. I suppose that given a little more time to the miserably organised megalomania of Dubai’s infrastructure, even a suparcalifragilistic payrise would not hold back the exodus of fed-up families and with them their dad-pilot. EK might think that they can fill the gap with newbees, but they get somewhat rare and if they want to take in the still waiting but less experienced, then their training expenditure gets too big (and if they hate something, it's "cost"). - What to do, as EK can’t stop the screwing up of the neighborhoods, roads, beaches, clubs, desert (in short: Lifestyle)?
All our ideas rotate around commuting rosters and basings, and they are certainly the shortest term solutions to the threatening pilot shortage. Many would then consider staying longer. It wouldn’t be rocket science to implement and it would certainly be COST NEUTRAL (Squeely!!), but it would need a little less ego and a little more brain power.
But I’m afraid that as long as such ******* ******** like AAR and TC remain in their armchairs, nothing will happen. Their ego would rather run EK into the ground than give us the minimum we request as to retain the majority among us.
But maybe EK could make a survey among the Audi-drivers, this will certainly bring up a similarly intelligent answer to this topic as the new pick-up scam.
All our ideas rotate around commuting rosters and basings, and they are certainly the shortest term solutions to the threatening pilot shortage. Many would then consider staying longer. It wouldn’t be rocket science to implement and it would certainly be COST NEUTRAL (Squeely!!), but it would need a little less ego and a little more brain power.
But I’m afraid that as long as such ******* ******** like AAR and TC remain in their armchairs, nothing will happen. Their ego would rather run EK into the ground than give us the minimum we request as to retain the majority among us.
But maybe EK could make a survey among the Audi-drivers, this will certainly bring up a similarly intelligent answer to this topic as the new pick-up scam.
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Looks like they will now save some money on overtime payments,
As effectively they have been reduced the overtime rate Capts 45 P/hr and F/O 35 p/hr,
I am still trying to work out how I got a 18% pay rise, when I work it out it’s a lot less then that???
As effectively they have been reduced the overtime rate Capts 45 P/hr and F/O 35 p/hr,
I am still trying to work out how I got a 18% pay rise, when I work it out it’s a lot less then that???
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A Cunning Stunt
Fact
On the Bus Fleet You will be assigned overtime and no way to bid avoid flying overtime. Why the smoke and mirrors in the letter to pilots over Flight Pay when Flight Pay STOPS when you go into overtime?
Quote below from the letter
To further test your intelligence as others have pointed out the money you receive doing Overtime or productivity is LESS than your hourly pay rate.
So not only do you have no choice to do overtime but you will be paid LESS for it.
What ever the spin put on by the company this remains ONLY a 6% increase
On the Bus Fleet You will be assigned overtime and no way to bid avoid flying overtime. Why the smoke and mirrors in the letter to pilots over Flight Pay when Flight Pay STOPS when you go into overtime?
Quote below from the letter
Introduction of Hourly Flying Pay Flying Pay will be paid for all actual block hours commencing from "1 hour " up to the level of the "Productivity Pay Threshold " AFTER which Productivity Pay would commence at the current rate. The hourly Flying Pay will be at the rate of Dhs 45 per block hour for a Captain and Dhs 35 per block hour for a First Officer
So not only do you have no choice to do overtime but you will be paid LESS for it.
What ever the spin put on by the company this remains ONLY a 6% increase
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[QUOTE=Muttley Crew;3080847]No. Flight pay stops when you reach 75 hours.
Not really,the 75 hours is only an example. The hourly flight pay stops when you reach the productivity pay limit for the given month that dipends on how many days that specific month has.
Happy open days flying
Not really,the 75 hours is only an example. The hourly flight pay stops when you reach the productivity pay limit for the given month that dipends on how many days that specific month has.
Happy open days flying
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Except that if the company still accepts that it is going to lose people, it wants it to be the senior people on high increments that go first.
Having said that the early announcement of the pay review indicates a shift in their crew retention policy that previously consisted of just f*** 'em.
Having said that the early announcement of the pay review indicates a shift in their crew retention policy that previously consisted of just f*** 'em.
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Aiming Point said,
Amen Brother!
But will we ever see this?
Getting rid of the rotating bid groups will give an incentive to stay longer, recognises loyalty and contribution, has no cost impact and has the much added benefit of allowing pilots based in Dubai to at least get back to their families as much as possible in a month.
But will we ever see this?
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More Smoke and Mirrors and a Dodgey Payrise Letter
Hi Muttley sorry your wrong Fatbus has it correct the quote I used was directly from the company letter As in most letters you need to read it several times to see what was slipped in. EK have never given something away for nothing.
Cabin Crew Flight pay does not stop at any thresh hold yet whith our scheme once you reach the productivity level for the month (when your over time payment kicks in) then you will not get Flight Pay. Wheres the logic in that?
To add insult the Productivity Pay (Overtime Payment) is less than your normal Hourly Flight Pay Rate, and you do not have a choice, you have to do Overtime some months.
Personally I am not interested at all in flying overtime. We were promised over a year ago by A.S that more pilots would be employed and we could enjoy flying around 780 hours a year. A.S even took the bold initative to blame the previous head of Flight Ops for all the problems.
What the company failed to take in to account was a massive increase in resignations as well as finding it difficult to recruit suitable candidates. They grossley underestimated the number of guys leaving and would continue to leave. Some how I think they have under estimated the numbers again.
Few points worth noting.
This letter has been produced 5 months before we even see a rise. Why not implement a rise NOW?
Company are making record profits again
The Oil Price continues to drop
Over seas Revenues ( Pound , Euro, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand Dollars) continue to rise against the AED and US Dollar.
When was the last time we had a Pow Wow with our Leaders....
Cabin Crew Flight pay does not stop at any thresh hold yet whith our scheme once you reach the productivity level for the month (when your over time payment kicks in) then you will not get Flight Pay. Wheres the logic in that?
To add insult the Productivity Pay (Overtime Payment) is less than your normal Hourly Flight Pay Rate, and you do not have a choice, you have to do Overtime some months.
Personally I am not interested at all in flying overtime. We were promised over a year ago by A.S that more pilots would be employed and we could enjoy flying around 780 hours a year. A.S even took the bold initative to blame the previous head of Flight Ops for all the problems.
What the company failed to take in to account was a massive increase in resignations as well as finding it difficult to recruit suitable candidates. They grossley underestimated the number of guys leaving and would continue to leave. Some how I think they have under estimated the numbers again.
Few points worth noting.
This letter has been produced 5 months before we even see a rise. Why not implement a rise NOW?
Company are making record profits again
The Oil Price continues to drop
Over seas Revenues ( Pound , Euro, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand Dollars) continue to rise against the AED and US Dollar.
When was the last time we had a Pow Wow with our Leaders....
Last edited by uplock; 21st Jan 2007 at 10:08.
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Actually I think that the rotating bid groups are a very good idea to retain people, as they benefit a lot more people than they don't. It's ok if you are senior to have a fixed system, but I thinks it's nice to give everyone a crack at a good roster, thats if the system isn't played around with tho.
Another thought I had that was mentioned was that when you reach the overtime limit you should get your OT hourly pay + your 35/45 dhs/hour as well.
As I said before this raise will just about cover the 20-25% inflation in Dxb over the last year to 18 months.
Another thought I had that was mentioned was that when you reach the overtime limit you should get your OT hourly pay + your 35/45 dhs/hour as well.
As I said before this raise will just about cover the 20-25% inflation in Dxb over the last year to 18 months.