Be Careful What You Wish For.
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TP,
Everyone has an agenda and few are above board enough to show it. You are right that a lot of crap is written trying to slag EK off, but then again a lot of crap is written trying to defend things.
EK is not Utopia Airlines just as Dubai is not Utopia; neither exist. Anyone from the outside can judge whether or not the package is acceptable to them. 330 Man said 'it depends on your baggage', he was right! Ghostflyer was right that the package has deteriorated.
The only thing that guys on the inside can add is how hard they are worked and how things have changed. The bottom line is that we now work much harder in real terms and get paid much less in real terms than we did even 2 years ago. I am less worried about T&Cs than the work rate. Sadly they both go hand in hand. If EK improved the package they would have to beat off applicants with a sh1tty stick and the work rate would go down.
Interestingly it would put EK where they were 7 years ago, they worked a bit harder than most for less than some but most people were happy. Maybe Utopia did exist but in amongst the traffic fumes and the cost cutting everyone lost sight of it!
Cerberus
Everyone has an agenda and few are above board enough to show it. You are right that a lot of crap is written trying to slag EK off, but then again a lot of crap is written trying to defend things.
EK is not Utopia Airlines just as Dubai is not Utopia; neither exist. Anyone from the outside can judge whether or not the package is acceptable to them. 330 Man said 'it depends on your baggage', he was right! Ghostflyer was right that the package has deteriorated.
The only thing that guys on the inside can add is how hard they are worked and how things have changed. The bottom line is that we now work much harder in real terms and get paid much less in real terms than we did even 2 years ago. I am less worried about T&Cs than the work rate. Sadly they both go hand in hand. If EK improved the package they would have to beat off applicants with a sh1tty stick and the work rate would go down.
Interestingly it would put EK where they were 7 years ago, they worked a bit harder than most for less than some but most people were happy. Maybe Utopia did exist but in amongst the traffic fumes and the cost cutting everyone lost sight of it!
Cerberus
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Originally Posted by whossorrynow
Your colleagues, with some obvious exceptions, would disagree with your statement about whether or not they are being attacked, and yes, I am attacking you, but in a gentlemanly way without resort to foul language.
By the way, I wrote 'a Godfather figure', not 'the Godfather'. I am aware that you are not Gillegan, but I wonder if he will appreciate you exposing him on this forum.
Still waiting for an apology.
By the way, I wrote 'a Godfather figure', not 'the Godfather'. I am aware that you are not Gillegan, but I wonder if he will appreciate you exposing him on this forum.
Still waiting for an apology.
The Capo de Capo has given me his blessing and isn't bothered by my "exposing" him. Thanks for your concerns on the familia's business though.
That isn't to say that he agrees with my posts. In fact, he was the first to comment, critically, on my other posts elsewhere.TP
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GoForIt,
Very good post! Unfortunately I disagree totaly on the SCAB part. We will have to agree to disagree.
I do want to clear up one thing that you mentioned. I too was an ALPA member for over 20 years. You said "You can't take your American ALPA expectations with you when you go to Emirates." I must tell you in the most forceful way possible that I HAVE NO AMERICAN ALPA EXPECTITATIONS!
ALPA for me was nothing more than a $200 a month magazine subscription. Obviously it was a medical insurance and license protection insurance policy in my back pocket, but I did not have to use either. It was nothing more than political wanabees playing a very dangerous financial game with the future of the other 7000 pilots in my old company. If you do not believe me ask any U pilot how the retirement terminaton, the last paycut, was handled. The only ones who got anything from ALPA were the MEC members who were paid trips missed for union work. One of the most pleasureable days of my career was the day that I stopped giving that corrupt systam any money!
My views are based on what I consider to be right and wrong. I have been in this profession for over 25 years so you can assume that those views are very strong, and that in this case I am too old to change them. Being an American or former ALPA member have nothing to do with it. If you take an upgrade from a well qualified First Officer who is not allowed to upgrade because of economcal reasons, it is wrong and you are a SCAB. I, like you made the same decision regarding picket lines in 1984. I was left seat on a turboprop commuter and intervied at Contenental. They offered me a job and I told them I would take it when the strike was over. For some reason they never did call back. I guess Frank took it personal.
Regards,
330 Man
Very good post! Unfortunately I disagree totaly on the SCAB part. We will have to agree to disagree.
I do want to clear up one thing that you mentioned. I too was an ALPA member for over 20 years. You said "You can't take your American ALPA expectations with you when you go to Emirates." I must tell you in the most forceful way possible that I HAVE NO AMERICAN ALPA EXPECTITATIONS!
ALPA for me was nothing more than a $200 a month magazine subscription. Obviously it was a medical insurance and license protection insurance policy in my back pocket, but I did not have to use either. It was nothing more than political wanabees playing a very dangerous financial game with the future of the other 7000 pilots in my old company. If you do not believe me ask any U pilot how the retirement terminaton, the last paycut, was handled. The only ones who got anything from ALPA were the MEC members who were paid trips missed for union work. One of the most pleasureable days of my career was the day that I stopped giving that corrupt systam any money!
My views are based on what I consider to be right and wrong. I have been in this profession for over 25 years so you can assume that those views are very strong, and that in this case I am too old to change them. Being an American or former ALPA member have nothing to do with it. If you take an upgrade from a well qualified First Officer who is not allowed to upgrade because of economcal reasons, it is wrong and you are a SCAB. I, like you made the same decision regarding picket lines in 1984. I was left seat on a turboprop commuter and intervied at Contenental. They offered me a job and I told them I would take it when the strike was over. For some reason they never did call back. I guess Frank took it personal.
Regards,
330 Man
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There's ALWAYS a goodie-goodie in EVERY class...
Hey U all,
You're obviously new "kids" on the block (or management of some sort) and still all bright eyed and bushy tailed! Hell Billy-Bob, them 4 gold bars still been a shinin'.
Happiness that you can see sunlight through all the crap that's being flung at you. Personally, I've been here long enough to remember a very different airline, one where obvious greed wasn't the order of EVERY day, where mutual respect and understanding existed and one where pilots had some sort of a lifesyle.
We actually enjoyed our jobs then and the only people quiting were those going on pension.
Now, get your heads out your ARSES and get with the program, because all I see is your shoelaces sticking out of management backsides!
Oh, by the way.... when I came to EK I already had "international experience"
You're obviously new "kids" on the block (or management of some sort) and still all bright eyed and bushy tailed! Hell Billy-Bob, them 4 gold bars still been a shinin'.
Happiness that you can see sunlight through all the crap that's being flung at you. Personally, I've been here long enough to remember a very different airline, one where obvious greed wasn't the order of EVERY day, where mutual respect and understanding existed and one where pilots had some sort of a lifesyle.
We actually enjoyed our jobs then and the only people quiting were those going on pension.
Now, get your heads out your ARSES and get with the program, because all I see is your shoelaces sticking out of management backsides!
Oh, by the way.... when I came to EK I already had "international experience"
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Warlock2000
a bit hard on the boys there ...
but well put....good to hear from someone that really can say how it was. Its never going to be like he good old days warlock unless you have a secret spell you can cast on the ever increasing maddness here.
nothing will ever be changed because we are all too busy looking after ourselves........from the cleaners to the top.
I am still an FO and from where I am sitting my left seat looks to be still on track. company resources seem to be the limitations.
TR
a bit hard on the boys there ...
but well put....good to hear from someone that really can say how it was. Its never going to be like he good old days warlock unless you have a secret spell you can cast on the ever increasing maddness here. nothing will ever be changed because we are all too busy looking after ourselves........from the cleaners to the top.
I am still an FO and from where I am sitting my left seat looks to be still on track. company resources seem to be the limitations.
TR
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TG,
It has nothing to do with experience or qualifications. I am just as qualified as anyone here including you. I have just as much or more experience as others here, even you. To those coming here as DEC's I will put my experience against them any day, so please do not tell me to "get the experience and the world is my oyster." It is all timing, and only timing. F/O's not able to upgrade because they were hired at a different time and are not allowed to upgrade now because we cannot hire enough F/O's to replace them. So we take the cheap way out hire DEC's and let the F/O's wait. It is wrong, and no matter how much you say otherwise it can not be justified.
Your Chief Pilot example is not valid. Maybe they interviewed for the job and were passed over. Maybe they like doing what they are doing and want to not change positions. Maybe they are not qualified for the VP fleet position. I do not know and the point is neither do you. All I do know is that there are many qualified and experienced F/O's at EK that are not upgrading and that we are hiring DEC's instead.
And like you I choose to be happy every day, as my posts have said. But, I can still be happy and complain about DEC's..I am sure that even you sometimes complain about something and it does not make you an unhappy person. It only makes you human. I love my job, but there is always room for improvment.
Regards,
330 Man
It has nothing to do with experience or qualifications. I am just as qualified as anyone here including you. I have just as much or more experience as others here, even you. To those coming here as DEC's I will put my experience against them any day, so please do not tell me to "get the experience and the world is my oyster." It is all timing, and only timing. F/O's not able to upgrade because they were hired at a different time and are not allowed to upgrade now because we cannot hire enough F/O's to replace them. So we take the cheap way out hire DEC's and let the F/O's wait. It is wrong, and no matter how much you say otherwise it can not be justified.
Your Chief Pilot example is not valid. Maybe they interviewed for the job and were passed over. Maybe they like doing what they are doing and want to not change positions. Maybe they are not qualified for the VP fleet position. I do not know and the point is neither do you. All I do know is that there are many qualified and experienced F/O's at EK that are not upgrading and that we are hiring DEC's instead.
And like you I choose to be happy every day, as my posts have said. But, I can still be happy and complain about DEC's..I am sure that even you sometimes complain about something and it does not make you an unhappy person. It only makes you human. I love my job, but there is always room for improvment.
Regards,
330 Man
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The fundamental issue is the divisions created in the company. DEC's, accelerated etc....It's a big win for many DEC's from charter's and other limited prospect airlines. I would not blame them personally, but the policy is a morale killer. On balance, FO's are very qualified and have experience for quick command which inflames the issue. As a supplement to FO's the policy would work, but it seems the focus is to fill the seats without regard to fairness and equality. This applies to the Airbus fleet or course, and it might come to pass with the 380 arrival, but the 330's start to leave next year.
Another real concern is keeping the troops motivated. Working harder is here to stay, but it would be nice to see more benefits. Leave restrictions and other indicators of lack of crew is a problem. The perdiem is below average in most destinations. They need to attract more FO's and keep the chain moving from the bottom. A healthy pay increase is a must with the hyper growth, inflation and dollar weakness. Global opportunites are opening outside North America and competition is good for supply and demand. EK must be mindful of retention and keep the package competitive. Anyone listening ??
Another real concern is keeping the troops motivated. Working harder is here to stay, but it would be nice to see more benefits. Leave restrictions and other indicators of lack of crew is a problem. The perdiem is below average in most destinations. They need to attract more FO's and keep the chain moving from the bottom. A healthy pay increase is a must with the hyper growth, inflation and dollar weakness. Global opportunites are opening outside North America and competition is good for supply and demand. EK must be mindful of retention and keep the package competitive. Anyone listening ??
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Originally Posted by Tartan guy
In the global scheme of things, you get what you are worth and not how long you've been there. TG
You should know better. Worth is a fluid concept at best that means different things to different people. Your worth is established by the market place. Right now, Emirates traditional sources of pilots has dried up (at least for the package they are offering). They have resorted to some non-traditional sources (for EK) with mixed results and are now fishing in the U.S. (we'll see how that works out).
I think what burns A330 Man and others is that EK have used the carrot of the quick command to entice people to come. I understand that even now, potential recruits are being told that it's 3 years to a command. Now while it is true that there are no guarantees, and they have always left open the possibility of DEC's, they have also given guys the wink and the nod (and more) regarding their commands. They know what they are doing and it is not honorable. Some may be willing to let them off the hook because it is a business but personally I call it a lack of integrity. They have moved the goal posts at their whim with little or no regard to the things that people were told to get them to come here. At the time, A330 Man was worth the promise (nod, nod, wink wink) of a quick command. Now they have reneged on that promise.
I personally can't see a continuation of the 3 year upgrades for guys joining now due to the projected growth over the next few years (we are more than half way there) and due to the large numbers of DEC's. There really is no need for the situation that we are in. There is not one airplane that has come this year or that is coming in the next year that we didn't know about 4 years ago. Some people screwed up and now, we have some FO's who are being expected to shoulder the consequences. Personally, I don't know how A330 Man keeps such a good attitude given what he was told.
Last edited by Gillegan; 28th Mar 2006 at 05:33.
Thread Starter
Going to Take These Jonny Come Latelys to Task
330 heavy men, scotch fella, typhoon etc, all been in the company 5 minutes. They fly in the face of comment from long time EK crew. Apparently they know it all.
But they dont because it is only the long time guys who have seen the decline of this company. These late arrivals have only seen the later stages of the decline, not what was there before, they compare it only to their decimated industry back in the USA.
They have not considered that the slide is continuing, in 2,3,5 or whatever years they will be just as aggrieved as the present long termers are right now. Unless something is done to reverse the slide.
People pass comment about agendas, but there would be no opinions or debate or discussion or argument or solution or need for a forum if there was no agenda, hidden or otherwise.
My agenda is obvious. I want it to be so. I want this company to return to what it was, on the way to becoming a premier airline. And it is largely the attitudes of the employees that make a company what it is.
If the management were less short sighted they would realise that the real commercial advantage would be to make this the nirvana of airline jobs rather than on the way to becoming the pariah of the industry. At a cost still well short of most, if not all, major carriers outgoings.
In the 90s around thirty S/Os and F/Os left Cathay for Emirates, three went the other way of which one came back to Emirates. Dont think that would happen now.
They could have a long line of quality crew aspiring to join EK, instead of having to travel to the States to seduce a bunch of misplaced hairyassed redneck alphas.
No real offence intended, I do not question their ability to operate an aeroplane, but I do question the judgment shown on this forum by those already here.
A certain satisfaction gained from watching them now starting to argue amongst themselves. The freshmen that is, not you Gillegan.
But they dont because it is only the long time guys who have seen the decline of this company. These late arrivals have only seen the later stages of the decline, not what was there before, they compare it only to their decimated industry back in the USA.
They have not considered that the slide is continuing, in 2,3,5 or whatever years they will be just as aggrieved as the present long termers are right now. Unless something is done to reverse the slide.
People pass comment about agendas, but there would be no opinions or debate or discussion or argument or solution or need for a forum if there was no agenda, hidden or otherwise.
My agenda is obvious. I want it to be so. I want this company to return to what it was, on the way to becoming a premier airline. And it is largely the attitudes of the employees that make a company what it is.
If the management were less short sighted they would realise that the real commercial advantage would be to make this the nirvana of airline jobs rather than on the way to becoming the pariah of the industry. At a cost still well short of most, if not all, major carriers outgoings.
In the 90s around thirty S/Os and F/Os left Cathay for Emirates, three went the other way of which one came back to Emirates. Dont think that would happen now.
They could have a long line of quality crew aspiring to join EK, instead of having to travel to the States to seduce a bunch of misplaced hairyassed redneck alphas.
No real offence intended, I do not question their ability to operate an aeroplane, but I do question the judgment shown on this forum by those already here.
A certain satisfaction gained from watching them now starting to argue amongst themselves. The freshmen that is, not you Gillegan.
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whossorrynow'
Why do you feel the need to attack those who have a different opinion than yours? We all speak about we know. You have been here longer than others and have seen the decline in the package and the overall treatment of employees. I'm sure it is very frustrating! I've seen the EXACT thing in the states so I know where you are coming from. I chose to leave a job that I had been in for over 19 years to come here and am quite happy about the move. Just because the conditions have changed; albeit drastically in the last few years; doesn't make this a bad job. If you or others hate it so much here then find somewhere you can be happy. There is more to life than a blasted job.
I think some guys have no life other than Emirates. If you hate it here so much then so be it. That doesn't mean that we all have to share your pain.
Having said all that, there's nothing wrong with wanting to better our working conditions. If that is your goal then we should be constructive and not belittle those with a different viewpoint. That's called being a gentleman and a professional. The gentlemen that you seem so intent on attacking are all working constructively in the company and trying to do as much as they can to improve conditions here. They like Dubai and Emirates. Good on them! I hope it remains so for them and I hope the conditions at our company will improve. Then maybe all will be somewhat more satisfied.
330
Why do you feel the need to attack those who have a different opinion than yours? We all speak about we know. You have been here longer than others and have seen the decline in the package and the overall treatment of employees. I'm sure it is very frustrating! I've seen the EXACT thing in the states so I know where you are coming from. I chose to leave a job that I had been in for over 19 years to come here and am quite happy about the move. Just because the conditions have changed; albeit drastically in the last few years; doesn't make this a bad job. If you or others hate it so much here then find somewhere you can be happy. There is more to life than a blasted job.
I think some guys have no life other than Emirates. If you hate it here so much then so be it. That doesn't mean that we all have to share your pain.
Having said all that, there's nothing wrong with wanting to better our working conditions. If that is your goal then we should be constructive and not belittle those with a different viewpoint. That's called being a gentleman and a professional. The gentlemen that you seem so intent on attacking are all working constructively in the company and trying to do as much as they can to improve conditions here. They like Dubai and Emirates. Good on them! I hope it remains so for them and I hope the conditions at our company will improve. Then maybe all will be somewhat more satisfied.
330
Last edited by 330 heavy; 29th Mar 2006 at 02:07.
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This thread was closed by the originator but following requests from some of the members I've opened it again. Things did get a little heated but that's no reason to bin it so carry on with the debate, but try to keep it nice please.
4HP
4HP
