Ek Package increase
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EGGW,
Now that would be telling wouldn't it
Suffice it to say I'm not European, which could possibly account for my attitude. Also, this is my third international airline, and let's just say that I've seen a lot worse. Finally, I guess I'm just a 'glass half full' kind of guy.
Now, having said all of that, I don't believe in taking a shafting lying down. But because of my past experiences I guess I'm able to put the whole thing into perspective. If and when the bad points exceed the good and I think that it has become a permanent situation, then I'll happily walk away. But trust me, we're not even close to that situation yet.
The grass is always greener on the other side, remember that.
Yardman
Now that would be telling wouldn't it
Suffice it to say I'm not European, which could possibly account for my attitude. Also, this is my third international airline, and let's just say that I've seen a lot worse. Finally, I guess I'm just a 'glass half full' kind of guy.Now, having said all of that, I don't believe in taking a shafting lying down. But because of my past experiences I guess I'm able to put the whole thing into perspective. If and when the bad points exceed the good and I think that it has become a permanent situation, then I'll happily walk away. But trust me, we're not even close to that situation yet.
The grass is always greener on the other side, remember that.
Yardman
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Yardman:
You are able to put things into your perspective, and good luck to you.
I have also been with several airlines and EK is the worst of the lot...I guess I was lucky or was not abused to the extent that you were which has made EK in your perspective a good airline. Regardless, it doesn't make the situation here right, a situation which has deteriorated over the several years I have been here. I've reached my personal limit and am off over the fence to another lawn regardless of the shade of green.
The sadness is that the more people think that EK is ok because it is 'better than the last lot' the more it will be able to get away with and the slide downward will continue.
You are able to put things into your perspective, and good luck to you.
I have also been with several airlines and EK is the worst of the lot...I guess I was lucky or was not abused to the extent that you were which has made EK in your perspective a good airline. Regardless, it doesn't make the situation here right, a situation which has deteriorated over the several years I have been here. I've reached my personal limit and am off over the fence to another lawn regardless of the shade of green.
The sadness is that the more people think that EK is ok because it is 'better than the last lot' the more it will be able to get away with and the slide downward will continue.
Last edited by Shake; 14th Oct 2005 at 16:49.
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Shake,
I understand where you're coming from and I honestly wish you well wherever you go to. We are, as you know, a product of our experiences. Perhaps if I had joined EK 5 or so years ago when things were really good then maybe I would be a little more disgruntled. I know that our T's & C's are gradually being eroded. But show me an airline anywhere in the world where they are improving. It is the story of my life that every job I've joined has been just after the 'good times' have ended
However I'm here. This is my reality. And I'll be here for a while yet until it suits me to move.
Now I have two choices while I'm here. I can whine and winge, and make myself and everyone else around me miserable, or I can can focus on the positives (and there still are many), whilst keeping abreast of developments in the global airline industry, so that should the day come when I feel I need to leave, then the transition will be a quick and as painless as possible.
Understand that I have no emotional attachment to Emirates or Dubai, but for the time being, given my particular situation, they are fulfilling a need for me and my family. Everyone's circumstances are different and I don't condemn anyone for their outlook or the choices that they make. In fact, I wish them all well. I don't post here regularly, but pprune does provide me with a great source of entertainment. However, in the interest of providing a balanced perspective I felt the need to let the folks out there know that there are still some contented pilots here at EK. How long that contentment will last, well only time will tell.
Yardman
I understand where you're coming from and I honestly wish you well wherever you go to. We are, as you know, a product of our experiences. Perhaps if I had joined EK 5 or so years ago when things were really good then maybe I would be a little more disgruntled. I know that our T's & C's are gradually being eroded. But show me an airline anywhere in the world where they are improving. It is the story of my life that every job I've joined has been just after the 'good times' have ended
However I'm here. This is my reality. And I'll be here for a while yet until it suits me to move. Now I have two choices while I'm here. I can whine and winge, and make myself and everyone else around me miserable, or I can can focus on the positives (and there still are many), whilst keeping abreast of developments in the global airline industry, so that should the day come when I feel I need to leave, then the transition will be a quick and as painless as possible.
Understand that I have no emotional attachment to Emirates or Dubai, but for the time being, given my particular situation, they are fulfilling a need for me and my family. Everyone's circumstances are different and I don't condemn anyone for their outlook or the choices that they make. In fact, I wish them all well. I don't post here regularly, but pprune does provide me with a great source of entertainment. However, in the interest of providing a balanced perspective I felt the need to let the folks out there know that there are still some contented pilots here at EK. How long that contentment will last, well only time will tell.
Yardman
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ratpoison
Sorry to hear about your near death experience on Dubai's infamous roads. If you don't trust the drivers, you've always got the option of driving yourself into work. Good luck!
Sorry to hear about your near death experience on Dubai's infamous roads. If you don't trust the drivers, you've always got the option of driving yourself into work. Good luck!
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always have the option of driving yourself into work
In that case, would we only need to show up 1 hour before departure?
Does anyone do this?
Wouldn't that make it hard to be on the bus to the aircraft 1hr10min before dep with briefings and flight-planning all done??
What do other airlines do...?
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Does anyone do this?
I also cal it practice. Practice that is for when I am going to have to do it anyway at my next job.
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NOW DID YOU GUYS NOT KNOW?
Working in the middle east is like having a bucket of money in one hand and a bucket of sh.t in the other. As long as the bucket of goodies is heavier than the other bucket, it is all right.
Look at Qatar, their pilots were and are still ranting about this AAB dude and claim that there are more pilots leaving the airline than joining. Even then Qatar manages to get pilots, even the whining sort from all over the world.
Another fact is that a pre-req. for the management pilot at any airline is to be caster.ted, so it should be quite understandable as to why they have perfectly good ears and yet do nothing.
If the sh.t is heavier than the goodies than you have option to leave , but they will always find guys to fly.
Sad but true "IT WILL NEVER BITE THEM TO SEE PILOTS LEAVE".
RW
Working in the middle east is like having a bucket of money in one hand and a bucket of sh.t in the other. As long as the bucket of goodies is heavier than the other bucket, it is all right.
Look at Qatar, their pilots were and are still ranting about this AAB dude and claim that there are more pilots leaving the airline than joining. Even then Qatar manages to get pilots, even the whining sort from all over the world.
Another fact is that a pre-req. for the management pilot at any airline is to be caster.ted, so it should be quite understandable as to why they have perfectly good ears and yet do nothing.
If the sh.t is heavier than the goodies than you have option to leave , but they will always find guys to fly.
Sad but true "IT WILL NEVER BITE THEM TO SEE PILOTS LEAVE".
RW
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BYMONEK and others,
I note your positive points,however after 11 years in the Prov Fund,with no AVCs in "managed equities",the "low risk" option my fund is 12000 USD LESS than the contributions.
It will buy me a nice a car but a good generous retirement it is not.
At least not if your planning life after EK in the 1st world.
Off to the pub.QB
I note your positive points,however after 11 years in the Prov Fund,with no AVCs in "managed equities",the "low risk" option my fund is 12000 USD LESS than the contributions.
It will buy me a nice a car but a good generous retirement it is not.
At least not if your planning life after EK in the 1st world.
Off to the pub.QB
BYMONEK,
The paid for house thing ...hmmm...DIC contract runs out in 2007..so you have it till then. Well you will have to use that command pay for something right.
Don
The paid for house thing ...hmmm...DIC contract runs out in 2007..so you have it till then. Well you will have to use that command pay for something right.
Don
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Dissappointed,
You trying to tell us that you drive yourself to work and rock up at the CBC 1 hour before departure. By that time your mate is wondering where the hell you are and the rest of the crew are at the A/C. And yet the GOONS have not brought you in for a cup of tea and cookies. ??????
Rakedwings,
Sadly my friend, your words are very true.
You trying to tell us that you drive yourself to work and rock up at the CBC 1 hour before departure. By that time your mate is wondering where the hell you are and the rest of the crew are at the A/C. And yet the GOONS have not brought you in for a cup of tea and cookies. ??????
Rakedwings,
Sadly my friend, your words are very true.
Last edited by ratpoison; 15th Oct 2005 at 06:20.
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Someone's telling porky pies. Maybe that's what you wish or dream you do Mr. Disappointed??
I don't know, I just find it weird that there is so much you have to get done (at least 20-30min worth) after you sign on at the computer and before you get on the bus to the aircraft. But the bus leaves 10min before the actual sign on time that we write in the Voyage Report.
My math must be flawed because it looks like we're on duty without it being counted for about 40min or so every time we go to work.
I don't know, I just find it weird that there is so much you have to get done (at least 20-30min worth) after you sign on at the computer and before you get on the bus to the aircraft. But the bus leaves 10min before the actual sign on time that we write in the Voyage Report.
My math must be flawed because it looks like we're on duty without it being counted for about 40min or so every time we go to work.
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I didn't expect to make a post like that and not receive replies.
That's why I posted the positives knowing full well there'd be plenty out there posting the negatives. The frustration that many of us have is that most of the problems here are easy to rectify with little or no cost to the Company.The analogy of the two buckets is often used in the Gulf and , i'd imagine, one that most of us use in a practical sense here in EK. If conditions were to deteriorate significantly such that the bad outweighed the good, i'd leave. My wife would ensure that! By then of course, there may be no containers left. There are,however, two points worth mentioning;
Provident Fund
This is something that affects us all. Unless you're a National of course where after only 15 years service you can look forward to 75% final salary for the rest of your life. Is that industry standard? I don't think so! For those few Airlines that still have FS schemes, 35 years service is the norm. For the rest of us though, we have to accept a provident fund that is poorly performing and is anything but actively managed. We need to pressure the Company into allowing us a more diverse range of funds to invest in. Funds which are available to the public and are accountable as such. If we did our jobs as badly as these so called money men, we'd have all been sacked yonks ago. Fidelity and Merill Lynch only have to make better than our EOB so hardly a strong incentive and room for sure for some creative accountancy. This is our future guys so start asking some difficult questions, especially you Quod Boy.
Report Times
Yes, interesting points that are brought up. In most Airlines it would be unheard of to turn up and start the actual brief up to 55 mins before report time. The Company culture here is a strong one and on the one occassion I did make my own way to work, was questioned why I was late when my 'official' report was not for another 20 minutes. We have no legal obligation to brief the CC before report so if the Company want us to, change the report time. If we're expected to brief as comprehensively as we do, then change the report time. BA do and it varies with type of operation so those on some flights, long haul/ ETOPS report at STD -80 minutes. And yes, it counts toward their FDL. And no, they're not expected to brief the CC. Personally, I prefer to use the Company transport and get in early so not to feel rushed but do take exception to being bollocked for turning up 20 minutes early!
How we go about trying to address these and other issues is a difficult one with few options available. Until the day we have a spokesperson for the whole Pilot body, we will continue to use forums like this as we know management read them. We also have the option of having the guts to go and speak to these people to highlight our grievances so that something MAY be done about it. Bitching and moaning at work may make us feel better, but it achieves little as we all know too well. Stick with the issues at hand and not the personalities.
Talking of 'personalities'. LHR Rain.........you're still not funny!
Regards BYMONEK
p.s Don, are fishing cause you ain't got the right fish yet!
That's why I posted the positives knowing full well there'd be plenty out there posting the negatives. The frustration that many of us have is that most of the problems here are easy to rectify with little or no cost to the Company.The analogy of the two buckets is often used in the Gulf and , i'd imagine, one that most of us use in a practical sense here in EK. If conditions were to deteriorate significantly such that the bad outweighed the good, i'd leave. My wife would ensure that! By then of course, there may be no containers left. There are,however, two points worth mentioning;
Provident Fund
This is something that affects us all. Unless you're a National of course where after only 15 years service you can look forward to 75% final salary for the rest of your life. Is that industry standard? I don't think so! For those few Airlines that still have FS schemes, 35 years service is the norm. For the rest of us though, we have to accept a provident fund that is poorly performing and is anything but actively managed. We need to pressure the Company into allowing us a more diverse range of funds to invest in. Funds which are available to the public and are accountable as such. If we did our jobs as badly as these so called money men, we'd have all been sacked yonks ago. Fidelity and Merill Lynch only have to make better than our EOB so hardly a strong incentive and room for sure for some creative accountancy. This is our future guys so start asking some difficult questions, especially you Quod Boy.
Report Times
Yes, interesting points that are brought up. In most Airlines it would be unheard of to turn up and start the actual brief up to 55 mins before report time. The Company culture here is a strong one and on the one occassion I did make my own way to work, was questioned why I was late when my 'official' report was not for another 20 minutes. We have no legal obligation to brief the CC before report so if the Company want us to, change the report time. If we're expected to brief as comprehensively as we do, then change the report time. BA do and it varies with type of operation so those on some flights, long haul/ ETOPS report at STD -80 minutes. And yes, it counts toward their FDL. And no, they're not expected to brief the CC. Personally, I prefer to use the Company transport and get in early so not to feel rushed but do take exception to being bollocked for turning up 20 minutes early!
How we go about trying to address these and other issues is a difficult one with few options available. Until the day we have a spokesperson for the whole Pilot body, we will continue to use forums like this as we know management read them. We also have the option of having the guts to go and speak to these people to highlight our grievances so that something MAY be done about it. Bitching and moaning at work may make us feel better, but it achieves little as we all know too well. Stick with the issues at hand and not the personalities.
Talking of 'personalities'. LHR Rain.........you're still not funny!
Regards BYMONEK
p.s Don, are fishing cause you ain't got the right fish yet!
Last edited by BYMONEK; 15th Oct 2005 at 11:29.
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Didn't they tell you on your CRM course that you should never Generalize. You then, I take it, DON'T work for us otherwise that last 'commet' of yours would include yourself, right?
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Bymonek,
I am reading your posts and smiling because, once long ago, I was just like you. When I came to EK nothing bad was written about the company, I was delighted to get the job and thought I had arrived in utopia. I am still more positive than negative but what a difference 6 years makes.
When I first arrived, I used to go to Scarletts with the boys for half priced piss and enjoyed my lifestyle. I used to quote to mates that it beat working for a living and that I averaged 18 days a month free from duty. I got a free house, a great medical package, schools etc etc. I used to sit in the back of the car with anal captains that spent all their time back-seat driving. Now I do the same.
So what went wrong? First I started to see the sand in between the skyscrapers, I got jingled every day and then my family were taken out on the roads, not EK's fault just part of living in Dubai. We used to be well compensated for it (In the 90s) but things had gradually started to deteriorate even before AAR and CK came up with their 'cost neutral scam'. Even after our recently trumpeted payrise we have not made back the cash that was cut when they changed the credit system. (Then again, maybe that's what they meant by 'cost neutral')
I was fine for the first 2 years and believed all they told me because I was shown a modicum of respect and when I worked days off or lost leave I felt it would be a transitory thing. What has actually happened is that the company have cut costs on the back of their employees. We used to have one of the lowest cost bases by percentage for labour in the industry but managed to keep most people happy by offering them a clear career path and vaguely sensible managerial decisions. Then they squeezed all the employees further, just because they could.
That has resulted in screwing over our quality of life. In 2000 some guys didn't get their leave because we were short, every year since the same has happened and it becomes even harder to get leave when we want it. They were asking for guys to give leave back in November with the promise of leave when ever you want it. Hmmm...really? Lots of guys are flying 20+ extra hours every month. Might pay some overtime but I for one would prefer to feel less tired, spend more time with my family and get leave when I wanted it, some of the time.
When I first arrived I'd help out and generally I might get something in return. Now if you help out some take it as a licence to abuse you. So I don't!
So what do I want. I'd just like the management to stand up, look me in the eye and tell me that they have screwed the pooch. They have made a mistake, the crewing levels are inappropriate for a ULH airline and they are taking steps to rectify things. Then if they said 'in the mean time you'll have to work a bit harder' I might be inclined to help because things were going to improve. When asked directly, TCAS said that he was not worried about the number of pilots or resourcing in general. What that really means is that the sitch we are in at the moment isn't gonna get any better.
So what can we do about it?
Well if you haven't joined yet make sure it really is for you. Job security is good, pay average, working conditions ok, command prospects a real worry. This market is opening up to competition from both around the gulf and the sub-continent. I cannot believe that Qatar, Etihad, Gulf and EK will all bring their big plans to fruition.
If you are here already you can either leave or stay. Many though are trapped. It is easy to say leave but starting at the bottom of the pile again in your late 40s is not the place to be for many of us. Change it, go into management...yeah right. EK management lesson 101 in how to succeed.
Boss "#$**&$##"........................ You "Yes"
Boss "22345te%^46^#@"........... You "Yes"
Opinions are like arseholes, we all have one and they usually stink. It will be interesting to see where you stand in 3 years, I bet you take a bit more jaundiced view. If the command thing has come to pass you'll probably be ok. I shudder to think what it will be like for guys joining now without even that carrot to hang on to. But the biggy still stands that until the management stand up and admit they have under-resourced the entire airline things can only get worse.
Ghost
I am reading your posts and smiling because, once long ago, I was just like you. When I came to EK nothing bad was written about the company, I was delighted to get the job and thought I had arrived in utopia. I am still more positive than negative but what a difference 6 years makes.
When I first arrived, I used to go to Scarletts with the boys for half priced piss and enjoyed my lifestyle. I used to quote to mates that it beat working for a living and that I averaged 18 days a month free from duty. I got a free house, a great medical package, schools etc etc. I used to sit in the back of the car with anal captains that spent all their time back-seat driving. Now I do the same.
So what went wrong? First I started to see the sand in between the skyscrapers, I got jingled every day and then my family were taken out on the roads, not EK's fault just part of living in Dubai. We used to be well compensated for it (In the 90s) but things had gradually started to deteriorate even before AAR and CK came up with their 'cost neutral scam'. Even after our recently trumpeted payrise we have not made back the cash that was cut when they changed the credit system. (Then again, maybe that's what they meant by 'cost neutral')
I was fine for the first 2 years and believed all they told me because I was shown a modicum of respect and when I worked days off or lost leave I felt it would be a transitory thing. What has actually happened is that the company have cut costs on the back of their employees. We used to have one of the lowest cost bases by percentage for labour in the industry but managed to keep most people happy by offering them a clear career path and vaguely sensible managerial decisions. Then they squeezed all the employees further, just because they could.
That has resulted in screwing over our quality of life. In 2000 some guys didn't get their leave because we were short, every year since the same has happened and it becomes even harder to get leave when we want it. They were asking for guys to give leave back in November with the promise of leave when ever you want it. Hmmm...really? Lots of guys are flying 20+ extra hours every month. Might pay some overtime but I for one would prefer to feel less tired, spend more time with my family and get leave when I wanted it, some of the time.
When I first arrived I'd help out and generally I might get something in return. Now if you help out some take it as a licence to abuse you. So I don't!
So what do I want. I'd just like the management to stand up, look me in the eye and tell me that they have screwed the pooch. They have made a mistake, the crewing levels are inappropriate for a ULH airline and they are taking steps to rectify things. Then if they said 'in the mean time you'll have to work a bit harder' I might be inclined to help because things were going to improve. When asked directly, TCAS said that he was not worried about the number of pilots or resourcing in general. What that really means is that the sitch we are in at the moment isn't gonna get any better.
So what can we do about it?
Well if you haven't joined yet make sure it really is for you. Job security is good, pay average, working conditions ok, command prospects a real worry. This market is opening up to competition from both around the gulf and the sub-continent. I cannot believe that Qatar, Etihad, Gulf and EK will all bring their big plans to fruition.
If you are here already you can either leave or stay. Many though are trapped. It is easy to say leave but starting at the bottom of the pile again in your late 40s is not the place to be for many of us. Change it, go into management...yeah right. EK management lesson 101 in how to succeed.
Boss "#$**&$##"........................ You "Yes"
Boss "22345te%^46^#@"........... You "Yes"
Opinions are like arseholes, we all have one and they usually stink. It will be interesting to see where you stand in 3 years, I bet you take a bit more jaundiced view. If the command thing has come to pass you'll probably be ok. I shudder to think what it will be like for guys joining now without even that carrot to hang on to. But the biggy still stands that until the management stand up and admit they have under-resourced the entire airline things can only get worse.
Ghost