DEC - Disaster Entry Captain??

[MR8]

Since the A340 incident in JNB, we had 2 incidents close to disaster..

1. EGPWS in Nairobi. Some guys decided to intercept te LOC from the north at 7500 ft... while the hills go up to 8000-ish feet. Thank you modern technology!!

2. Near collision with jetblast fence in DXB. Again we were lucky, KWI flight, so not very heavy, excess of power, ...

Did someone notice these 2 incidents were both with DEC's at the wheel? Might be a wake up call for recruitment that hours isn't everything! IMHO, it's the best prove that a company with a diverse operation as EK nees to upgrade from within, get some EK experience in your right seat and then move over left.

Hopefully there won't be a 3 in the near future, we might run out of luck...

MR8

[Omark44]

Well, given that both incidents mentioned should have been picked up and challenged by a competent FO the question one is bound to ask is, "Are the current RHS F/Os actually experienced and qualified enough for Command?"

[330 Man]

Omark44,

Good observation. I have stated here many times that I am against the DEC program, but this last incident is not a DEC issue. I know the Capt personally on the last incident and he is a former TRE/Flight Standards Captain on the 737, TRI on the 767, FAA air safety award recipient, with over 18000 hours, almost all with a major airline in jets. He is no slouch. The F/O was a local, former UEA military. Contrary to what is posted on the big white board in CBC, they DID NOT use the numbers for takeoff on 12L while taking off on 12R. They ran the numbers for 12R and the Boeing computer told them 12R was sufficient. I also heard from one of the safety guys that they did not rotate early, and cleared the end of the runway at 50 feet. That is the required screen height for 2 engines.

This entire incident and investigation is a result of the captain filing an ASR. We all need to think about that. He is facing a deciplinary hearing as a result of telling on himself, because no one else told on him. Is that what the ASR program is here for? If we are facing action by filing an ASR we will all think twice before filing one. In the end the ASR is our most valuable tool for safety, but we should not face termination for filing one.

Hopefully when this case is over the company will come clean and allow all of us to learn from it. If it can happen to this experienced crew it can happen to anyone. If we can all be better pilots at the end of the day due to this last incident, then it was not all bad.

Regards,

330 Man

[Global Nomad]

A330.

Agree with you about the ASR filing, however it's a fact that there does need to be a safety investigation. One would hope that the non-jeopardy reporting system will operate as it should.

It would be inappropriate to refer to any particualr individual so I'm not going to, but this business of "he's a great pilot because he's done xyz" is a load of bollocks.

[donpizmeov]

Is it true re the deciplinary hearing? This seems to becoming a sign of the times at the moment.

Don

[Saltaire]

I have to admit I was more than surprised to see a sandwich board of the latest intelligence.......is the portal not sufficient? Desperate manouvre for sure; I thought I was back at flying school with the latest daily instructions.

Non-jeopardy is very important, but it's not a get out of jail free card either.....and I agree with Nomad, your past history means very little on the day, history proves this all too well.

[dunerider]

If they used the correct figures and cleared the barrier by the appropriate height then why the disciplinary or is there more to this? I also agree that all this hot air about how many hours and what other supposed ratings the DEC's have, has no relevance unless the guy is a test pilot from Boeing or he just came back from flying the space shuttle. I do, however, agree that an ASR is appropriate in relation to the barrier. A small percentage of the DEC's come from the top echelon of airlines.These are airlines that fly longhaul widebody aircraft and have done for many years.
The best performance from a DEC is when he learns to accept and operate the company's SOP's, even if he disagrees with them and when he can fit into the expat way of life. Then you may find they might have some acceptance amongst the first officers. However, amongst some they won't ever be accepted and I can sympathise with their reasoning as well.

[ratpoison]

MR8,

Probably a bean counter has come to the ragh##d conclusion that the risk of a hull loss is much cheaper than transition upgrades.

[MR8]

First of all.. was intended as a little BS topic, get the whiners out and have a laugh.. Bit of a devils advocate thing, turned out to atract more serious replies... To bad for that laugh though..

Few remarks though..

Omark - Not ALL F/O's at EK are very experienced and ready for command. A good bit of them are, no idea about the guys involved in these incidents. They might as well be 'learners' gaining experience on the job.. The Captain on the other hand SHOULD have the experience and knowledge... So your remark is a bit of nonsense..

330 Man - Although I agree with most of your previous postings, I think this one is a load of cr@p...
First of all, the experience and past of your guy has nothing to do with it. Remember Capt. Van Zanten, most senior guy at KLM in 1977, yet involved in the worst airline accident ever...
Second, if they had a normal rotation and cleared the runway end at 50 feet, why the ASR?
Third, if there was really an error in the Boeing computer, why isn't there a Notam published NOT to use this computer for T/O data anymore?
It looks to me that you want to defend an old mate who MIGHT have made a f*ck up. I don't say he did. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone, just curious..

MR8

PS: Think we can forget about the 'shoot all DEC's' discussion now.. Bummer ;-)

[411A]

Seems to me that the DEC program needs to be expanded, now that the true quality of (some) EK First officers has been revealed.

Many (most) I expect are sitting in the RHS, crying the blues that their perceived 'abilities' have been set aside, in favor of more experienced guys.

BooooHooo

[Global Nomad]

MR8

Now I am laughing.

Good to see you on the thread 411a....your input is always welcome. Whether anyone believes it or not is strictly up to the individual.

As usual your comments will be construed by some to be inflammatory, however when read carefully it does have a ring of truth. I might add that your stated perception of abilities also applies to a number of DEC's.

That just makes Emirates the same as any other airline.

[uid0]

no person is immune to human errors.
Errors happen and experience (left or right seat) counts in how the pilot recognise and deal with those errors.

[Austin Holed]

Whilst I am not happy that EK have hired DECs, I do get down on my knees and thank the dear sweet lord above that 411A aint one of 'em.

[White Knight]

Percieved abilities - interesting comment 4iia. That could apply to F/O's (as you point out), 3 yr EK skippers (good blokes) and DEC's (mainly good blokes - but a couple of real half wits )
You have this fetish for EXPERIENCE as being the be all and end all in flying - you really are living in a backwards age old bean. Many of aviations nastiest accidents have been with the "highly experienced" skipper driving into the ground - or another aeroplane a la Tenerife.....


I think the reason that a lot of EK F/O's are p1ssed off is due to the bullsh1t that's raining down from above!! Plus the fact that we're bailing out A FEW - (minority) of these wonderful DEC's when they are being paid almost twice as much as we are!! Of course 4iia, along with flying your wonderful TriStar you also raised 15 kids on $10 per month with no hassle - God, you are my hero

By the way - the NBO GPWS (so I'm told) hard warning was NOT reacted to, pretty effing scary....................................

[Omark44]

You are quite wrong MR8, why do you think there are two crew? they should have both picked it up, I don't see any nonsense there.

[330 Man]

To all of you who have pointed out the obvious about time and experience, I agree. No amount of experience will protect you from making a mistake. What I was trying to say was that you do not reach that experience level by cutting corners, being a "cowboy" or a rogue pilot. In today's environment of CRM, most of the first officers will call you on the carpet for cutting corners.

MR8 I do remember Capt. Van Zanten, and yours is a very valid point. I am not however defending an old mate just for the hell of it. The white board in CBC is incorect and I was just pointing that out. The hearing was because of an ASR that the Captain filed, and I was just pointing that out. He filed the ASR because he knew he was very close to the barrier, he thought he had rotated early, and he thought he had missed the barrier by a few feet. In the hearing , the data showed that he had rotated at Vr, and cleared by 50 feet. Experience will not protect any of us from making mistakes, but none of us will get experience by cutting corners. That was my point. If he did make a F--K up it was taking off on a short runway when there is perfectly good long one right next door. I am sure that he will never do that again, no matter how loud the threat is on the atis about delays.
(I am sure that I am not the only one who hears the implied threat on the atis in DXB)

Global Nomad. Is "a load of bollocks" the same a bulls--t? I am after all from the country!

Lastly, if I had anything to do with 411a coming down from the ozone and venting his "bollocks" (right GN?) then I apologise to each and evey one of you. That is a curse that none of us deserve or need!

Regards,

330 Man

[Global Nomad]

A330 Man

Great to see that you can inject a sense of humour back into the thread. I don't think we should take anything too seriously on any thread other than an underlying message.

"Bulls..t" is a damn fine substitute and yes it is your fault for waking the troll up.

I wonder what trend there will be in runway utilisation over the next few weeks.

Is the poor chap having a disciplinary (corrected your spelling Don) hearing or is the incident just being investigated?

[donpizmeov]

Thanks GN. As that wise man once said...If I had of worked harder at school I could have got a real job.

Don

[Cerberus]

A330 Man, I do not want to make personal attacks but lets look at your 3 quotes in general terms:

Q1. 'he is a former TRE/Flight Standards Captain on the 737, TRI on the 767, FAA air safety award recipient, with over 18000 hours, almost all with a major airline in jets. He is no slouch.'

A1. Wrong, someone with that profile might be a slouch! Experience isn't about how long you have been doing it or how many hours you have, it is about what you have fitted into those hours, how relevant it is, what you have learnt and how you apply it in the future! Someone with the above profile might be good, might have been good and might never have been any good at all.

Having all those awards and hours doesn't amount to anything unless you use them wisely. Clearly, the Nairobi Captain didn't have the experience to recognise a massive mountain between himself and the localiser. Maybe it might have been different if he had been in his environment and inside his comfort zone or sat in the right seat for a while and learnt about his new environment and gained some relevant experience.

Q2. 'The F/O was a local, former UEA military.'

A2. Ergo, the first officer was probably quite inexperienced! He might be good, he might not. In the UK in the 80's about 8 US Military exchange pilots were killed by the RAF who assumed they were experienced and sent them off on low-level missions in the hills. They were experienced but their experience related to the clear skies of Arizona (bit like 411a) in a nice radar controlled box, not 500' cloudbase / 5km viz in the UK's winter. I think you can read across from the US military to the UAE and make your own conclusions.

What did the Brits do? They gave them a UK orientation course with experienced IPs until they had the clues in their bag. We could do the same with some DECs, the orientation could be carried out in the right hand seat for a while recognising their previous experience but letting them learn about their new environment and gain relevant experience

Q3. 'What I was trying to say was that you do not reach that experience level by cutting corners, being a "cowboy" or a rogue pilot.'

A3. No you can just keep your head down and wend through the system. Doesn't mean you are good but it does mean you have been around a long time. I know lots of pilots that have got old without picking up much experience or many clues along the way. Is an 18,000 hour pilot better than a 12,000 hour one? Maybe but probably not more likely just older and eventually for most of us on the slippery slope down. We have some former Captains that are permanent EK F/Os cos they didn't meet our standard.

So what to take out of all my blustering? Well when we employ DECs they should have relevant experience. A rating in one of our aircraft types would be a good starting point. Experience of the airfields to which we operate should be another. If they don't have that they should sit in the right hand seat and gain it. As an ex-pat airline you have the added burden as a Captain of flying with all sorts of guys that have very different experience, knowledge and ability bases. The best way to cope is by having been exposed to that environment before stepping across to the left seat.

1. Previous Command - DEC has had it, most EK F/Os have too.
2. Meets EK's Command Ability Standard - DEC maybe, you can check out F/Os to see.
3. Relevant Operating Environment - DEC maybe, EK F/O has for sure.
4. Used to SOPs - DEC no / EK F/O definitely.
5. Time on type - DECs maybe / EK F/O for sure.
6. Relevant Experience- DEC maybe / EK F/O definitely

There seem to be a hell of a lot of maybe's surrounding DECs, if the meet them all it is not unreasonable to take them. If not, we should look within at guys that of whom we have more knowledge. That way we will make a better and informed decision. Even Transition/Upgrades might make sense. A guy within the company has fewer things to learn than a DEC going to a new Company, Country, Operating Environment, type etc.

It is a big ask to be a DEC, the humility to recognise that you are not a god, just a man starting a new job is a good start. (Unlike so I am told one of our ME DECs) To set the same standards you held with your previous operator whilst learning new SOPs etc is hard. That ask gets even bigger if you are trying to learn about a new jet and new operating environment at the same time. Lets get DECs with relevant experience or promote the experienced and capable guys from within.

Speaking of bollocks; what's the one compliment never heard in the bedroom? 'Nice scrotum!'

Off to the physio to get my typing finger renewed.


Cerberus

[MTOW]

DECs have happened before in EK, and they’ll happen again. I think few would disagree that the vast majority of the current crop are a cut well above many of the earlier lot.

Most of the last lot are long gone, some of them with a little encouragement from the very people who employed them. (Who could forget the one who shared a first name with a famous German general who also lived for a while in a desert?) A “Mustang” pilot if ever there was one.

Were the EK FOs unhappy campers when the last lot arrived? You betcha. (And did management care?) See here for the FOs reactions at the time, and those bemoaning the alleged lack of experience in some of the current DECs, take a look towards the end of the story Look for

For it is written that many… …will cometh … from the tribe of Parker bin Pehn.”

What strikes me most about the story is that it could have been written last week.