DEC - Disaster Entry Captain??
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Desert
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411A,
SO I am pig headed. Okay but what makes you so arrogrant that you think that you can scab my senority without knowing how cabable I am in the RHS or even the LHS. The main reason for a senority list is so arseh0#@% like you can't jump over anyone. Do you really think that there are that many unqualified co-pilots at EK? If so you are the pork headed one who probably is at a low rent airline just looking for something better and you think that EK offers it. Get real, onward pork!
SO I am pig headed. Okay but what makes you so arrogrant that you think that you can scab my senority without knowing how cabable I am in the RHS or even the LHS. The main reason for a senority list is so arseh0#@% like you can't jump over anyone. Do you really think that there are that many unqualified co-pilots at EK? If so you are the pork headed one who probably is at a low rent airline just looking for something better and you think that EK offers it. Get real, onward pork!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
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Told you so...
Gosh, LHR Rain, you do indeed seem to have your knickers in a twist, over the DEC issue.
I mentioned on this forum over three years ago to the various co-pilots at EK that they were foolish to 'assume' that EK would follow any sort of senority list, in promoting or hiring a pilot, no matter what the position, and especially for first officers.
Just so you know...airlines in the middle east, and indeed EK is positively NO exception, will lie to you at every turn, and the ONLY positive way to get around the promotion issue, is to be hired directly into the position, to which you aspire.
IE: wanna be a Captain...get hired as one.
Full stop.
This has been the only way to assure yourself that the outcome is as you expect.
Always has been, always will be, in the middle east.
How do I know?
Been working in/around the middle east for over thirty years, collecting the big(er) bucks, always as a DEC...period.
Now, to those who 'thought' that EK was an honorable company, and will 'do the right thing' with regards to upgrades...welcome to the real world my friend,you have learned a valuable lesson, for sure.
Now, if I was running EK, I personally would offer upgrades to everyone that deserved, and was qualified for same, on a merit basis, ignoring senority.
Set a policy, and stick with it.
But, being as I don't run EK, you are left with those managers that will do as they please...middle eastern style.
Get used to it.
It ain't likely to change anytime soon.
Not in your lifetime, anyway.
I mentioned on this forum over three years ago to the various co-pilots at EK that they were foolish to 'assume' that EK would follow any sort of senority list, in promoting or hiring a pilot, no matter what the position, and especially for first officers.
Just so you know...airlines in the middle east, and indeed EK is positively NO exception, will lie to you at every turn, and the ONLY positive way to get around the promotion issue, is to be hired directly into the position, to which you aspire.
IE: wanna be a Captain...get hired as one.
Full stop.
This has been the only way to assure yourself that the outcome is as you expect.
Always has been, always will be, in the middle east.
How do I know?
Been working in/around the middle east for over thirty years, collecting the big(er) bucks, always as a DEC...period.
Now, to those who 'thought' that EK was an honorable company, and will 'do the right thing' with regards to upgrades...welcome to the real world my friend,you have learned a valuable lesson, for sure.
Now, if I was running EK, I personally would offer upgrades to everyone that deserved, and was qualified for same, on a merit basis, ignoring senority.
Set a policy, and stick with it.
But, being as I don't run EK, you are left with those managers that will do as they please...middle eastern style.
Get used to it.
It ain't likely to change anytime soon.
Not in your lifetime, anyway.
DEC
411A,
Could not agree more with your post, well done!!!!
I guess it will be a chock for the "dreamers" in the Middle East to read what you wrote but it is true.....
EK, like many others can not be trusted.
Could not agree more with your post, well done!!!!
I guess it will be a chock for the "dreamers" in the Middle East to read what you wrote but it is true.....
EK, like many others can not be trusted.
Payscale
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Hey, don't balme the DECs too much here. They were after all just other guys out there looking for another job. EK recruited them and now they are here. Those that make no effort to blend into the culture (of complete negativity) are a problem but surely there must be a few that have managed to fit in and make life better for all.
The management is to blame for getting the airline into this situation of low morale. Perhaps if you accepted as many of the DECs as possible into the group life would be better. After all they were only seeking new employment.
The management is to blame for getting the airline into this situation of low morale. Perhaps if you accepted as many of the DECs as possible into the group life would be better. After all they were only seeking new employment.
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Just a couple of points.
1.
Direct entry commands have been around for at least the last forty years, to my knowledge. Within expanding airlines the need to get the show on the road at minimum cost and training time and without diluting experience levels too much is paramount. An airline can only afford to have a small percentage of its captains as new captains. In stable, non or slowly expanding airlines this is achieved by the normal attrition process of retirement and resignations. New captains naturally require more supervision and monitoring whilst they absorb the transition from LHS to RHS and there is only a set amount of time and resources available for this. To ensure that these resources are not overstretched DECs are employed in the hope that once on line they can be left to get on with the job, fall back on their previous experience when required and leave available training resources to concentrate on turning out a good command product from suitably qualified F/Os.
2.
The requirements for promotion to command, (let us not forget, it is a promotion, not a God given right), are, usually:
Correct licence, sufficient appropriate hours and suitability!.
Suitability comprises a whole tranche of things. Attitude, maturity, command ability, assertivness, CRM, company loyalty, the ability to be a company ambassador down route at all times but particularly when things go seriously wrong, the ability to command a crew, a degree of commercial awareness and the ability to know when to differentiate between operational, safety and commercial requirements and allocate priorities accordingly, the ability to have and retain the appropriate respect from all around you, etc. etc. The list is quite long and whilst many can satisfy the licence and appropriate hours requirements many fall down on suitability, as measured by your current employer, not your last one.
I have seen potential captains with excellent quality experience come unstuck not in the simulator but during line training when the suitability factor comes into the equation big time.
Reading some of the posts on this thread I am bound to wonder if one or two people are so wound up in seniority issues that they have lost sight of the big picture.
1.
Direct entry commands have been around for at least the last forty years, to my knowledge. Within expanding airlines the need to get the show on the road at minimum cost and training time and without diluting experience levels too much is paramount. An airline can only afford to have a small percentage of its captains as new captains. In stable, non or slowly expanding airlines this is achieved by the normal attrition process of retirement and resignations. New captains naturally require more supervision and monitoring whilst they absorb the transition from LHS to RHS and there is only a set amount of time and resources available for this. To ensure that these resources are not overstretched DECs are employed in the hope that once on line they can be left to get on with the job, fall back on their previous experience when required and leave available training resources to concentrate on turning out a good command product from suitably qualified F/Os.
2.
The requirements for promotion to command, (let us not forget, it is a promotion, not a God given right), are, usually:
Correct licence, sufficient appropriate hours and suitability!.
Suitability comprises a whole tranche of things. Attitude, maturity, command ability, assertivness, CRM, company loyalty, the ability to be a company ambassador down route at all times but particularly when things go seriously wrong, the ability to command a crew, a degree of commercial awareness and the ability to know when to differentiate between operational, safety and commercial requirements and allocate priorities accordingly, the ability to have and retain the appropriate respect from all around you, etc. etc. The list is quite long and whilst many can satisfy the licence and appropriate hours requirements many fall down on suitability, as measured by your current employer, not your last one.
I have seen potential captains with excellent quality experience come unstuck not in the simulator but during line training when the suitability factor comes into the equation big time.
Reading some of the posts on this thread I am bound to wonder if one or two people are so wound up in seniority issues that they have lost sight of the big picture.
omark 44,
The EK Fo group is made up of a great bunch of professional fellas. What you see vented here is frustration of being lied to and mistreated.
FOs joining now know what the present state of play is, however those that joined over 2yrs ago have had the rug well and truely ripped from under them. They have even witnessed their boss tell them they will not be disadvantaged, when it was obvious to all, and questioned otherwise. When you adversely effect someones, and their families livelihood, they tend to become a little disgruntled. And this is exactly what is happening.
The DECs are just applying for and getting a job. Just like anyone else in the industry. And people joining as FOs now know the score, and make their decisions accordingly. On a whole I think most have no problem with the DECs, but they do have a problem with the short sighted management style that has caused the present problems.
So there is no need to worry. I am sure that they well and truely see the big picture, hence the concern they vent on this forum. They have taken two big body blows, one the DECs, and the other the stopping of transition upgrades. One of these is a hinderence, but both are career stopping.
Don
The EK Fo group is made up of a great bunch of professional fellas. What you see vented here is frustration of being lied to and mistreated.
FOs joining now know what the present state of play is, however those that joined over 2yrs ago have had the rug well and truely ripped from under them. They have even witnessed their boss tell them they will not be disadvantaged, when it was obvious to all, and questioned otherwise. When you adversely effect someones, and their families livelihood, they tend to become a little disgruntled. And this is exactly what is happening.
The DECs are just applying for and getting a job. Just like anyone else in the industry. And people joining as FOs now know the score, and make their decisions accordingly. On a whole I think most have no problem with the DECs, but they do have a problem with the short sighted management style that has caused the present problems.
So there is no need to worry. I am sure that they well and truely see the big picture, hence the concern they vent on this forum. They have taken two big body blows, one the DECs, and the other the stopping of transition upgrades. One of these is a hinderence, but both are career stopping.
Don
Join Date: May 2004
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No axe with the individuals,the policy was flawed and doomed from the start.
A great deal of bad feeling because in many cases(not all) the wrong people with the wrong experience hired.
An unmitigated and avoidable personnel disaster.Finally,now acknowledged by the brass hats.Time will tell.
Off to the bar.QB
A great deal of bad feeling because in many cases(not all) the wrong people with the wrong experience hired.
An unmitigated and avoidable personnel disaster.Finally,now acknowledged by the brass hats.Time will tell.
Off to the bar.QB
