EK Overseas Basings.
EK have staff all over the world.
Res, airport-dispatch/managers, sales, engineers, admin, etc.....
To say they don't want basings because of local laws is utter cr@p.
halas
Res, airport-dispatch/managers, sales, engineers, admin, etc.....
To say they don't want basings because of local laws is utter cr@p.
halas
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Quod boy
A couple of subtle differences.
Hong Kong was an independent economy that was not ruled by one family. It was probably the most capitalist place on earth for a period. That is a far cry from Dubai where Emirates is a government owned company where the governments entire purpose is to grow the Dubai economy. Cathay was a publicly owned company (the swire portion anyway). Therefore its overiding mission was to return financial results to the owners.
Yes a lot of pilots send some money home. I dont think many send half of it home. Regardless, the other half stays here. Cabin crew send very little home, nearly all of their money stays here.
If you had basings, all of it would go out of the country. Dubai imports almost everything it consumes, so at the moment, the only thing that keeps the balance of payments in check is the oil exports. When the oil stops there will have to be increased measures to stop capital from flowing out of the country.
Quite right, but why is that different to a 777 stuck in Hong Kong, Melbourne, Sydney, Auckland, Brisbane, Jo'burg or any other destination we operate to. In short it isn't. EK have been operating this way for years, willing to accept the risk. Statistics show that the gamble is paying off. When was the last time you heard of an aircraft being stuck down route because of crewing reasons?
I agree that basings would be an excellent addition to our package. But given the way our management thinks it would not surprise me to see them offered to DEC's rather than us.
I for one am not holding my breath.
dmf
A couple of subtle differences.
Hong Kong was an independent economy that was not ruled by one family. It was probably the most capitalist place on earth for a period. That is a far cry from Dubai where Emirates is a government owned company where the governments entire purpose is to grow the Dubai economy. Cathay was a publicly owned company (the swire portion anyway). Therefore its overiding mission was to return financial results to the owners.
Yes a lot of pilots send some money home. I dont think many send half of it home. Regardless, the other half stays here. Cabin crew send very little home, nearly all of their money stays here.
If you had basings, all of it would go out of the country. Dubai imports almost everything it consumes, so at the moment, the only thing that keeps the balance of payments in check is the oil exports. When the oil stops there will have to be increased measures to stop capital from flowing out of the country.
With an A340 stuck downroute,through sickness,or tech,and looking to A380,cancelling flights downroute(AKL?SYD?JFK?) will have major implications,for crew duty limits,and getting crew together.
I agree that basings would be an excellent addition to our package. But given the way our management thinks it would not surprise me to see them offered to DEC's rather than us.
I for one am not holding my breath.
dmf
Last edited by druckmefunk; 23rd Jun 2004 at 04:23.
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dmf I am here in the wings awaiting a better DEC Package that includes an overseas basing!! However as someone has pointed out because EK salaries are tax free in Dubai the package would have to be in the currency where basing is and it would have to be increased hugely to allow for tax to be paid in country of abode. I am not therefore holding my breath as it would cost EK far more where as the Cathay and SQ overseas basings save them money by not paying education and accommodation allowances.
On busy rotes SQ always have a crew on standby but take a chance elsewhere that Flight Deck will not go sick at the last minute.
On busy rotes SQ always have a crew on standby but take a chance elsewhere that Flight Deck will not go sick at the last minute.
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millers
you are exactly right. It is something I didn't mention previously.
I figure it would be about cost neutral for EK. By the time they increased the salary to cope with taxation, it would roughly take out the savings made from education and accomodation.
So back to my original argument, why would they forgo all the money that pilots spend in Dubai for no significant saving.
The only reason is if they can't attact pilots (DEC's that is, F/O's will always come) or someone else offers a basing package that attracts large numbers away from EK.
dmf
you are exactly right. It is something I didn't mention previously.
I figure it would be about cost neutral for EK. By the time they increased the salary to cope with taxation, it would roughly take out the savings made from education and accomodation.
So back to my original argument, why would they forgo all the money that pilots spend in Dubai for no significant saving.
The only reason is if they can't attact pilots (DEC's that is, F/O's will always come) or someone else offers a basing package that attracts large numbers away from EK.
dmf
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Don't believe that Cathay kindly adjusted salaries to account for
the difference in tax for overseas basings.
In fact quite the opposite, they reduced the actual pay difference
by about 30% and made no allowance for local taxes at all.
So, the actual take home pay became approx 50% of that for
HKG based people.
Emirates could do the same if they were to base pilots, trouble
is after reducing salary to home country rates and applying local
taxes- you would'nt have enough left to feed a baby camel.
The single biggest incentive for Cathay to base people was to extract pilots out of the provident fund.
Emirates would not benefit from guys leaving their fund to the
same extent.
Basings would have to be at lower pay rates, for DEC's or whoever, otherwise the pilot body in Dubai would revolt.
the difference in tax for overseas basings.
In fact quite the opposite, they reduced the actual pay difference
by about 30% and made no allowance for local taxes at all.
So, the actual take home pay became approx 50% of that for
HKG based people.
Emirates could do the same if they were to base pilots, trouble
is after reducing salary to home country rates and applying local
taxes- you would'nt have enough left to feed a baby camel.
The single biggest incentive for Cathay to base people was to extract pilots out of the provident fund.
Emirates would not benefit from guys leaving their fund to the
same extent.
Basings would have to be at lower pay rates, for DEC's or whoever, otherwise the pilot body in Dubai would revolt.
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boofta
Some signigicant differences between Cathay and EK.
When Cathay introduced basings, everyone was on the A scale. That was back in the days when it was considered that you had to pay people a huge amount of money to live in HK. So they did. The trade off with basings was that you took a huge pay cut, but still earned a huge salary and got to live in your home country.
Many Cathay based people didn't have to pay tax in their country of domicile so in fact they laughing all the way to the bank.
EK on the other hand pay salaries that are well below industry standards and assume that we are all happy to accept them in order to live in "paradise". My salary converted to home country dollars is below that of a LoCo. If you then apply the tax factor, it is not an option. So EK would in fact have to increase basic salaries if they were to try and base people in countries with normal taxation rules. Some of my UK friends tell me that the after tax dollar at Easy or Ryanair is more than they are paid here!
BTW even after the turmoil at Cathay over the last decade, a Cathay F/O still earns more than an EK captain. And I would suggest that a Cathay Captain on a basing would still be earning significantly more, after tax, than and EK Captain in Dubai is earning.
So as you can see, it is not easy to compare the Cathay basings model to EK.
dmf
Some signigicant differences between Cathay and EK.
When Cathay introduced basings, everyone was on the A scale. That was back in the days when it was considered that you had to pay people a huge amount of money to live in HK. So they did. The trade off with basings was that you took a huge pay cut, but still earned a huge salary and got to live in your home country.
Many Cathay based people didn't have to pay tax in their country of domicile so in fact they laughing all the way to the bank.
EK on the other hand pay salaries that are well below industry standards and assume that we are all happy to accept them in order to live in "paradise". My salary converted to home country dollars is below that of a LoCo. If you then apply the tax factor, it is not an option. So EK would in fact have to increase basic salaries if they were to try and base people in countries with normal taxation rules. Some of my UK friends tell me that the after tax dollar at Easy or Ryanair is more than they are paid here!
BTW even after the turmoil at Cathay over the last decade, a Cathay F/O still earns more than an EK captain. And I would suggest that a Cathay Captain on a basing would still be earning significantly more, after tax, than and EK Captain in Dubai is earning.
So as you can see, it is not easy to compare the Cathay basings model to EK.
dmf
Thread Starter
It would appear unlikely the EK management would consider such a proposal at present. However, there are a number of real issues in DXB, which unless resolved will stop potential flight crew applying.... I'm not saying they are having problems recruiting..
The long term situation may well change their opinion.. time will tell..
The long term situation may well change their opinion.. time will tell..
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Thread Starter
EK Overseas Basings.
I have heard recruitment in EK and other ME airlines has slowed to a trickle and a radical approach is now required...Bases in the US/CAN/UK/AUS/NZ on the radar.......Anyone have any info ?
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I have heard similar. I believe they are going to offer basings to DEC's, as that is the most efficient way.
The reasoning is that if they were to offer current pilots basings, they would have to replace them with a new joiner anyway and that is where the difficulty is, so DEC basings makes the job more attractive to anyone qualified, and basically fills the company requirements.
The reasoning is that if they were to offer current pilots basings, they would have to replace them with a new joiner anyway and that is where the difficulty is, so DEC basings makes the job more attractive to anyone qualified, and basically fills the company requirements.
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Very strong labour laws in all these countries. Would EK really be interested in basing someone in a place that actually has some teeth. From what I've read and heard from friends that work there, not likely.
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EK Discovering...
I guess that overseas basing were inevitable but it will create even more problems for EK and prove very divisive. In any case it will not solve the fundamental issues back in Dubai.
EK have already discovered that they are not as attractive as they thought they were and pilots are not applying or arriving in the numbers needed to sustain todays schedules let alone those planned for the future.
At a time when they need as many pilots as they can train, they are losing pilots both through the front and back doors and it doesn't look as if the spectre of DECs with overseas basings will solve the problem, only add significantly to them.
They continue to do anything BUT look at the issues of pay and conditions. 8% didn't cut it and throwing CVs in our faces and telling that we are 'given' accomodation and other 'perks', which are actually necessities, doesn't work either.
Pilots are not coming because the pay fails to compete in the long haul-widebody sector regardless of what any 'in house' remuneration survey would have us believe. Pilots are leaving because the pay/conditions at EK have deteriorated when those elsewhere have improved.
Unfortunately EK have chosen to follow the road of Gulf Air and the writing is on the wall.
I am in the process of finding an overseas basing for myself and like many others it is not with EK.
EK have already discovered that they are not as attractive as they thought they were and pilots are not applying or arriving in the numbers needed to sustain todays schedules let alone those planned for the future.
At a time when they need as many pilots as they can train, they are losing pilots both through the front and back doors and it doesn't look as if the spectre of DECs with overseas basings will solve the problem, only add significantly to them.
They continue to do anything BUT look at the issues of pay and conditions. 8% didn't cut it and throwing CVs in our faces and telling that we are 'given' accomodation and other 'perks', which are actually necessities, doesn't work either.
Pilots are not coming because the pay fails to compete in the long haul-widebody sector regardless of what any 'in house' remuneration survey would have us believe. Pilots are leaving because the pay/conditions at EK have deteriorated when those elsewhere have improved.
Unfortunately EK have chosen to follow the road of Gulf Air and the writing is on the wall.
I am in the process of finding an overseas basing for myself and like many others it is not with EK.
Last edited by Shake; 24th May 2005 at 14:45.
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So who is going to fly with these overseas based DEC's would we have overseas based DEFO's. Now those two combined would p*ss off nearly every current EK pilot.
Keep discovering (new ways to aggravate your workforce)
EK stop dicking around and increase the pay and conditions.
I know it will hurt your ego but go on!!!!!!
brgds
CRS
PS Good article in 7 days from the Economist magazine. Standard Chartered bank estimate inflation in Dubai as 8% last year. So the last pay rise wasn't a pay rise
Keep discovering (new ways to aggravate your workforce)
EK stop dicking around and increase the pay and conditions.
I know it will hurt your ego but go on!!!!!!
brgds
CRS
PS Good article in 7 days from the Economist magazine. Standard Chartered bank estimate inflation in Dubai as 8% last year. So the last pay rise wasn't a pay rise
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For my 2 dirhams worth I just can't see it happening. What would happen if these pilots wanted to join a....dare I say the word.. union? And would their salary be increased by approx 40% to cover the tax they will have to pay,which, if so,would expose our pay as a reduced salary rather than a tax free salary. Would they have to e-mail a request to leave their country on days off......"ah,hello,i'm just driving over from England to Wales for the weekend,is that okay?" Private schooling,medical.......No.Too many problems I think.
But heh.....you just never Know!
But heh.....you just never Know!
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What if it was a seperate company,like SIA cargo,we do it right now with Atlas(more or less)
Have not heard anything wrt the 310Frt maybe that is the offline basings being reffered to
Have not heard anything wrt the 310Frt maybe that is the offline basings being reffered to
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Surely by signing an agreement,not to form a "U****",and operating under a seperate name(SIA Cargo,Atlas,CX cargo etc),there would be advantages ?
Cost base lower?Standby coverage downroute?Reduced housing?
Pilots not leaving,to go home?
The company is already divided,irreversibly with DEC programme so just another split on a voluntary basis is hardly controversial now.The airline is big and impersonal now.
Is it not better to have your own pilots in the company,utilising their EK experience living where they want to live rather than leave to another carrier?What a loss of experience.
I think it is viable,(as CX,SIA etc have done so),but whether EK see the advantages remains highly debatable.QB
Cost base lower?Standby coverage downroute?Reduced housing?
Pilots not leaving,to go home?
The company is already divided,irreversibly with DEC programme so just another split on a voluntary basis is hardly controversial now.The airline is big and impersonal now.
Is it not better to have your own pilots in the company,utilising their EK experience living where they want to live rather than leave to another carrier?What a loss of experience.
I think it is viable,(as CX,SIA etc have done so),but whether EK see the advantages remains highly debatable.QB