Qr Dec Package
Join Date: Jun 2004
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I have heard about the two seniority list and to me that is a very huge "SLAP IN THE FACE" to the F/O's that have served the company and been on the property many years to then have to go junior to someone who leaves their previous company and comes to QR as a captain just because he flew 1000 hours on a medium sized jet. ( as they put it in the flight international advertisement)
i would imagine that some of these guys have no world wide experience and don't have the first idea of ETOPS, flying through time zones, glass cockpit or even FMS. Sure they get a 45 days in Toulouse France and are trained to pass the check ride and I am sure will do fine once on the line, don't get me wrong, But you know what, the first officer with the two cadet bars sitting in the right seat that has been with Qatar Airways for 2.5 to 5 years and has come from a job and been in the Qatar Airways job where he has flown all over the world and knows the middle east, Africa, Far East, Europe and Asia will baby sit this guy until he learns how to make a HF call for the first time to Mumbai or Antanarivo.
Seniority is everything to a pilot, He works hard to get over to the left seat and be a captain, this is basic 101 of being a pilot. You come to an airline for a career and to progress through the ranks and to climb to the top of " THE SENIORITY LADDER." some pilots left jobs to come to QR and join as a F/O so that they can progress and be a part of a great airline. At the interview they were told all sorts of different things that made them believe that "THIS IS THE PLACE" and now "THE GOAL POST" ( as knotaloud put it) have been moved and a new playing field is in place with different rules.
To see this Airline just bringing in pilots from other airlines and jumping the seniority list or have two seniority list is WRONG! ( in my eyes) I can see and feel the frustration of the first officers at QR and feel sorry for them.
Sure it is ok to bring in Direct entry captains in a airline that is growing rapidly and you need to fill the seats quickly. Yes, bring in someone with experience and put them in the left seat, but DON'T SLAP THE FACE of the First Officers that have given blood, sweat and tears and have been loyal to your company. WOW! that two seniority thing is BAD!............... Seniority should be "D.A.T.E O.F H.I.R.E" at the airline and when the first officer gets an upgrade (Inshallah) he would be senior for bidding vacation, upgrade to new fleet and also bidding for a monthly roster (if it ever comes)
I hate to go on but if you serve 5 years with QR and then "INSHALLAH" get an upgrade, the guy that joined a couple of days before you and was hired Direct left seat is Senior to you? Well lets do some math here. This guy finished flying school 5 years ago and was hired in an airline in his country the same day you joined QR. he flew 4 years as a F/O on a 737 or 727 at 1000 hrs a year ( 4000 hours). He then gets an upgrade to the left seat of the 737 or 727 for 1 year at 1000 hours in that year. So now he has 5000 hours and gets hired by QR and is senior to you who has been flying not only longer than him but flying longer at QR than he has flown his entire career..... ha ha ha ha ha. What a joke.......
As you put it in your closing line not registered, "things are slowly getting looked at" I hope for the sake of all at QR that the turtle will pick up some speed and get it all straight soon.
GOOD LUCK TO ALL F/O's at QR.
i would imagine that some of these guys have no world wide experience and don't have the first idea of ETOPS, flying through time zones, glass cockpit or even FMS. Sure they get a 45 days in Toulouse France and are trained to pass the check ride and I am sure will do fine once on the line, don't get me wrong, But you know what, the first officer with the two cadet bars sitting in the right seat that has been with Qatar Airways for 2.5 to 5 years and has come from a job and been in the Qatar Airways job where he has flown all over the world and knows the middle east, Africa, Far East, Europe and Asia will baby sit this guy until he learns how to make a HF call for the first time to Mumbai or Antanarivo.
Seniority is everything to a pilot, He works hard to get over to the left seat and be a captain, this is basic 101 of being a pilot. You come to an airline for a career and to progress through the ranks and to climb to the top of " THE SENIORITY LADDER." some pilots left jobs to come to QR and join as a F/O so that they can progress and be a part of a great airline. At the interview they were told all sorts of different things that made them believe that "THIS IS THE PLACE" and now "THE GOAL POST" ( as knotaloud put it) have been moved and a new playing field is in place with different rules.
To see this Airline just bringing in pilots from other airlines and jumping the seniority list or have two seniority list is WRONG! ( in my eyes) I can see and feel the frustration of the first officers at QR and feel sorry for them.
Sure it is ok to bring in Direct entry captains in a airline that is growing rapidly and you need to fill the seats quickly. Yes, bring in someone with experience and put them in the left seat, but DON'T SLAP THE FACE of the First Officers that have given blood, sweat and tears and have been loyal to your company. WOW! that two seniority thing is BAD!............... Seniority should be "D.A.T.E O.F H.I.R.E" at the airline and when the first officer gets an upgrade (Inshallah) he would be senior for bidding vacation, upgrade to new fleet and also bidding for a monthly roster (if it ever comes)
I hate to go on but if you serve 5 years with QR and then "INSHALLAH" get an upgrade, the guy that joined a couple of days before you and was hired Direct left seat is Senior to you? Well lets do some math here. This guy finished flying school 5 years ago and was hired in an airline in his country the same day you joined QR. he flew 4 years as a F/O on a 737 or 727 at 1000 hrs a year ( 4000 hours). He then gets an upgrade to the left seat of the 737 or 727 for 1 year at 1000 hours in that year. So now he has 5000 hours and gets hired by QR and is senior to you who has been flying not only longer than him but flying longer at QR than he has flown his entire career..... ha ha ha ha ha. What a joke.......
As you put it in your closing line not registered, "things are slowly getting looked at" I hope for the sake of all at QR that the turtle will pick up some speed and get it all straight soon.
GOOD LUCK TO ALL F/O's at QR.
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Since May 11, 04 Qatar placed SIX ad's in Flight Intl. looking for pilots.
Cathay places approx. ONE ad per year for the same amount of pilots.
Does that tell us something about working conditions???
Cathay places approx. ONE ad per year for the same amount of pilots.
Does that tell us something about working conditions???
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Safari Goat,
Well Said.
The Seniority thing is not good here and we can only hope it will change.
I myself have never heard of such a thing but I am new to this Middle Eastern way of doing things.................
Spot on mate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very good post...........
hajj Man
Well Said.
The Seniority thing is not good here and we can only hope it will change.
I myself have never heard of such a thing but I am new to this Middle Eastern way of doing things.................
Spot on mate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very good post...........
hajj Man
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Well said Safari Goat. That is exactly whats happening at QR.
Currently there is a preference for hiring guys from subcontinent they hired dozens from medium sized jet DEC to A300 and roumours are some will come directly to A330.
No experience outside subcontinent, no world experience, no wide body, maybe never used an HF as you put it and some considerably less TT than many of the senior F/O's at QR.
Company F/O's are hired for a POSITION not as a PILOT but as an F/O, this is your designated post. No plans , intentions or willingness to promote from within only talks in the corridors, no written memo's or anything in writting for that matter hence no real policy.There was a memo several months ago regarding upgrades on A300/A320, A330 is off limits for ug's , but it has been swiftly removed after one week and guys were told that it was a MISTAKE !?!
Anyone of the street with nice log book and jet pic time and good conection regardless of the current "written" policy can get in and it is automatically ahead of F/O's Seniority List, that have been with the company for years. What a morale booster.
( btw has anyone actually seen or knows of any official seniority list? It has been covered in a veil of secrecy)
There were guys here that have been hired in the left seat, what Safari Goat said, with no glass or wide body experience, I guess good for them.
Many of our fellows will accept jobs like this but in the long run if the company doesn't value their loyal employees sooner or later it will backfire at all of our fellow pilots regardless of the seat they occupy.
It represents the attitude that you are not welcomed , just a necesity to run the business and noticed by the office only when you ask for orange juice, peanuts or cappucino. So much for the atmosphere here regardless of the seat of course.
Currently there is a preference for hiring guys from subcontinent they hired dozens from medium sized jet DEC to A300 and roumours are some will come directly to A330.
No experience outside subcontinent, no world experience, no wide body, maybe never used an HF as you put it and some considerably less TT than many of the senior F/O's at QR.
Company F/O's are hired for a POSITION not as a PILOT but as an F/O, this is your designated post. No plans , intentions or willingness to promote from within only talks in the corridors, no written memo's or anything in writting for that matter hence no real policy.There was a memo several months ago regarding upgrades on A300/A320, A330 is off limits for ug's , but it has been swiftly removed after one week and guys were told that it was a MISTAKE !?!
Anyone of the street with nice log book and jet pic time and good conection regardless of the current "written" policy can get in and it is automatically ahead of F/O's Seniority List, that have been with the company for years. What a morale booster.
( btw has anyone actually seen or knows of any official seniority list? It has been covered in a veil of secrecy)
There were guys here that have been hired in the left seat, what Safari Goat said, with no glass or wide body experience, I guess good for them.
Many of our fellows will accept jobs like this but in the long run if the company doesn't value their loyal employees sooner or later it will backfire at all of our fellow pilots regardless of the seat they occupy.
It represents the attitude that you are not welcomed , just a necesity to run the business and noticed by the office only when you ask for orange juice, peanuts or cappucino. So much for the atmosphere here regardless of the seat of course.
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Very Few upgrades m4141g,
All the direct hires are taking those jobs from the F/Os that have been here for 3 years and the strong rumour is that some guys are coming direct from 737 at Jet Airways in India direct to the A-330 left seat. Lucky guy ( or did you have a contact to help?)
Now this is starting to not only be a bad thing for the F/Os with the upgrade, now it is wrong towards the A-320 Captains and A-300 Captains that have serve time here also.
When you ask any one in the office about this the answer you get is " everyone will be on the A-330 soon. WHAT IS SOON? well lets see, Soon for 13 years period is 3 years, soon for 100 year period is 10 years, soon for 10 month period is 1 month. What scale are they using you wonder?
I guess it is "who you know" instead of the "what you know" these days and it appears that this has all come about with new folks being hired in the offices with friends from other parts of the world that they are helping out. I have nothing against helping your friends out at all, but don't do it at the expense of others that have been here waiting and want to progress.
I am not sure how life works these days and feel that maybe I have looked at Aviation in a wrong way for many a years.
What can we do? Well as always, lets just sit back and watch the events unfold.
HM
All the direct hires are taking those jobs from the F/Os that have been here for 3 years and the strong rumour is that some guys are coming direct from 737 at Jet Airways in India direct to the A-330 left seat. Lucky guy ( or did you have a contact to help?)
Now this is starting to not only be a bad thing for the F/Os with the upgrade, now it is wrong towards the A-320 Captains and A-300 Captains that have serve time here also.
When you ask any one in the office about this the answer you get is " everyone will be on the A-330 soon. WHAT IS SOON? well lets see, Soon for 13 years period is 3 years, soon for 100 year period is 10 years, soon for 10 month period is 1 month. What scale are they using you wonder?
I guess it is "who you know" instead of the "what you know" these days and it appears that this has all come about with new folks being hired in the offices with friends from other parts of the world that they are helping out. I have nothing against helping your friends out at all, but don't do it at the expense of others that have been here waiting and want to progress.
I am not sure how life works these days and feel that maybe I have looked at Aviation in a wrong way for many a years.
What can we do? Well as always, lets just sit back and watch the events unfold.
HM
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That's true QR is the only company in the world who does not bother to reply. At first I thought that's some kind of mail problem or I am only one who do not get an answer, but now I apprehend a whole situation. Adding to this I had an opportunity to meet one Qatary guy in Touluse, I decided not to apply. Not the pleasest chap he. When things begin so, the quickier to stop the better
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Fullforward
you asked for the QR package and ended up with a lot of other info.
Monthly package is as-
Basic- 20000 Qr
Housing 5000 Qr
Transport/utility/furnishing 1800 Qr
you get paid for kids education also not very sure but I think good enough for the place
Hourly rate of 100 Qr/hr. you can look at about 65-70 hrs.
Hajj Man - says Qr taking 737 DEC on 330 I dont think he has got it right lot of QR capts still waiting for their upgrade and many are local. There is no way a 737 capt can bypass the Senior Capts and go on 330 not till date atleast.
Safari Goat - thinks that F/O's will baby sit the Capt and teach him how to make a HF call. Dont if safari goat is a F/O himself and thought that making a HF call was such a difficult thing to do. Though I cant say much on Seniority it is a debateable isuue with many airlines all over the world.
Many other posts talk of DEC being taken into QR but the that is being done at all major airlines and QR is no different.
Belowclouds-you have a valid complain that they dont reply at QR and that can be very painful I feel they must atleast acknowledge recipt of an application but then even airlines like SIA dont reply if they dont consider a candidate suitable- but i guess there can be a better way to it.
you asked for the QR package and ended up with a lot of other info.
Monthly package is as-
Basic- 20000 Qr
Housing 5000 Qr
Transport/utility/furnishing 1800 Qr
you get paid for kids education also not very sure but I think good enough for the place
Hourly rate of 100 Qr/hr. you can look at about 65-70 hrs.
Hajj Man - says Qr taking 737 DEC on 330 I dont think he has got it right lot of QR capts still waiting for their upgrade and many are local. There is no way a 737 capt can bypass the Senior Capts and go on 330 not till date atleast.
Safari Goat - thinks that F/O's will baby sit the Capt and teach him how to make a HF call. Dont if safari goat is a F/O himself and thought that making a HF call was such a difficult thing to do. Though I cant say much on Seniority it is a debateable isuue with many airlines all over the world.
Many other posts talk of DEC being taken into QR but the that is being done at all major airlines and QR is no different.
Belowclouds-you have a valid complain that they dont reply at QR and that can be very painful I feel they must atleast acknowledge recipt of an application but then even airlines like SIA dont reply if they dont consider a candidate suitable- but i guess there can be a better way to it.
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"Many other posts talk of DEC being taken into QR but the that is being done at all major airlines and QR is no different."
ALL MAJOR AIRLINES! I'm off to Cathay Pacific or maybe British Airways or maybe Air France or............which one should I go to Mr Weatherman?
Also, this being a rumour forum remember, but I think Hajj is correct. According to the story going around, 737 DEC's are doing courses on the 330 as that is where the current shortfall lies.
Fullforward. Please refer to my post under "To QR/Qatar with wife and baby" for a realistic approximation of what you'll receive here.
ALL MAJOR AIRLINES! I'm off to Cathay Pacific or maybe British Airways or maybe Air France or............which one should I go to Mr Weatherman?
Also, this being a rumour forum remember, but I think Hajj is correct. According to the story going around, 737 DEC's are doing courses on the 330 as that is where the current shortfall lies.
Fullforward. Please refer to my post under "To QR/Qatar with wife and baby" for a realistic approximation of what you'll receive here.
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Many things said here are unfortunately the truth.....
One thing false though:
DEC on 330 are all captains with widebody experience. No way 737!!!!
Still its very bad that they prefer DEC above there own crews, especially the 320 guys. They have frozen (again) the 320 pilots due to shortage!
With all due respect to the 300 people but I think its only fair that 320 pilots, whi have been flying their a***s off in the gulf and subcontinent, with only few layovers, should get a shot at the LH sectors.
QR is not as bad as people tend to believe here (personal opinion) but everything regarding transfers and upgrades is a BIG BIG BIG mess!
Two seniority lists, no policy, changing rules etc....Do not believe you will get a command three years after joining! BS!
The next months/years will be CRUCIAL for QR....and it will be either survival or total downfall! Safety is slowly but surely going down at the moment, morale is low, experienced crew is running away, indian maffia has total control in HR and flight ops,,there is a shortage of experienced crew ( tech crew and cabin) joining the company engineering is struggling to find qualified people etc etc etc...
I wish QR all the best but i sincerely hope nothing bad will happen.....IN SHA'ALLAH
One thing false though:
DEC on 330 are all captains with widebody experience. No way 737!!!!
Still its very bad that they prefer DEC above there own crews, especially the 320 guys. They have frozen (again) the 320 pilots due to shortage!
With all due respect to the 300 people but I think its only fair that 320 pilots, whi have been flying their a***s off in the gulf and subcontinent, with only few layovers, should get a shot at the LH sectors.
QR is not as bad as people tend to believe here (personal opinion) but everything regarding transfers and upgrades is a BIG BIG BIG mess!
Two seniority lists, no policy, changing rules etc....Do not believe you will get a command three years after joining! BS!
The next months/years will be CRUCIAL for QR....and it will be either survival or total downfall! Safety is slowly but surely going down at the moment, morale is low, experienced crew is running away, indian maffia has total control in HR and flight ops,,there is a shortage of experienced crew ( tech crew and cabin) joining the company engineering is struggling to find qualified people etc etc etc...
I wish QR all the best but i sincerely hope nothing bad will happen.....IN SHA'ALLAH
Last edited by Qatari515; 24th Jul 2004 at 06:24.
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Qatari515
The next months/years will be CRUCIAL for QR....and it will be either survival or total downfall! Safety is endangered at the moment, morale is low, experienced crew is running away, indian maffia has total control in HR and flight ops, engineering is struggling to find qualified people etc etc etc...
thats a big BIG issue then they should do something about it or wow wow i dont even want to think about it
The next months/years will be CRUCIAL for QR....and it will be either survival or total downfall! Safety is endangered at the moment, morale is low, experienced crew is running away, indian maffia has total control in HR and flight ops, engineering is struggling to find qualified people etc etc etc...
thats a big BIG issue then they should do something about it or wow wow i dont even want to think about it
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WXman & Qatari515,
I think you need to do your homework a bit before you come to post anything here........Yes this is a rumour page but I spoke to some one that just came back from the A-330 course in Toulouse and he said a DEC is going through the A-330 program now.
when you go into the office next time to go to work, ask the question if anyone is in Touluose France right now from Jet airways going through the A-330 program?
Sorry to tell you this...
Good Luck.
HM
I think you need to do your homework a bit before you come to post anything here........Yes this is a rumour page but I spoke to some one that just came back from the A-330 course in Toulouse and he said a DEC is going through the A-330 program now.
when you go into the office next time to go to work, ask the question if anyone is in Touluose France right now from Jet airways going through the A-330 program?
Sorry to tell you this...
Good Luck.
HM
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Hey, there s so much BUZZ about Jet Air guys joining QR, where do they come from?? And are these the only ones joining QR nowadays!!! Every QR post talk about Jet guys, is there something more to them then others.... just wondering...
Cheers to the rest of em too...
Cheers to the rest of em too...
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Actually it is not right to pick on the Jet Airways guys coming to QR. But it does help when you have a contact in the hiring manager team to pull all your country men in and give them A-330 and A-300 Left Seat when all you have flown is a 737 locally in India.
We have other DEC coming form other airlines and some of them only flew RJ. ( some RJ outfit in Europe that shut down.)
It just is not right to treat the f/os that are here at QR now and have waiter for their turn to upgrade, were told when hired it would be a certain time frame and then "YOU CHANGE THE PLAYING FIELD ON THEM"
That is wrong,
Actually I think DEC is wrong also. I am from the old way of thinking that NO DEC...Upgrade from within.......
HM
We have other DEC coming form other airlines and some of them only flew RJ. ( some RJ outfit in Europe that shut down.)
It just is not right to treat the f/os that are here at QR now and have waiter for their turn to upgrade, were told when hired it would be a certain time frame and then "YOU CHANGE THE PLAYING FIELD ON THEM"
That is wrong,
Actually I think DEC is wrong also. I am from the old way of thinking that NO DEC...Upgrade from within.......
HM
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HAJJ MAn,
NO 737 DEC is joining on the 330 fleet!
Believe you me, I have more then my facts straight!
All those guys join on either 320 or 300 fleets!!!!
330 DEC......only people with international Widebody experience and that my friend, is a fact.
Just to be totally correct, they have hired some A320 DEC on the 330 but these guys where flying 320 LH ops and had previous widebody experience. THis was only to fill in a very big crew shortage that will arrise in the next few months on the 330 fleet! But 737 guys, NO WAY!
If you dont believe me, try to get a hold of any name and send it to me via PM......Il check it again then but ill bet you a crate of beers you wont find that name...
NO 737 DEC is joining on the 330 fleet!
Believe you me, I have more then my facts straight!
All those guys join on either 320 or 300 fleets!!!!
330 DEC......only people with international Widebody experience and that my friend, is a fact.
Just to be totally correct, they have hired some A320 DEC on the 330 but these guys where flying 320 LH ops and had previous widebody experience. THis was only to fill in a very big crew shortage that will arrise in the next few months on the 330 fleet! But 737 guys, NO WAY!
If you dont believe me, try to get a hold of any name and send it to me via PM......Il check it again then but ill bet you a crate of beers you wont find that name...
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Qatari515,
I will try to find out a name for you and see if my sources are correct.
As for the bet on the crate of beers........... Sorry I don't drink !!!alcohol but I will make any other bet.
I am going on a flight today so I will try to check it out ..
Thanks
HM
I will try to find out a name for you and see if my sources are correct.
As for the bet on the crate of beers........... Sorry I don't drink !!!alcohol but I will make any other bet.
I am going on a flight today so I will try to check it out ..
Thanks
HM
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WXman and Qatari515,
I have to apologize to you about the 737 deck crew joining on the A-330 fleet.
I asked in the office today when I went to work and found out I was wrong and I stand corrected.
I also apologize to anyone reading this post about the 737 crew joining direct to the A-330 as Captains. But they are a few direct entry F/o from some 737 operation in Europe joining.
It is a fact though that I know for sure that one if not a few have been hired to the A-300 fleet as you stated.
Please accept my apologies, it looks like I am the one who needs to do the homework here.
Thanks
HM
I have to apologize to you about the 737 deck crew joining on the A-330 fleet.
I asked in the office today when I went to work and found out I was wrong and I stand corrected.
I also apologize to anyone reading this post about the 737 crew joining direct to the A-330 as Captains. But they are a few direct entry F/o from some 737 operation in Europe joining.
It is a fact though that I know for sure that one if not a few have been hired to the A-300 fleet as you stated.
Please accept my apologies, it looks like I am the one who needs to do the homework here.
Thanks
HM
Last edited by Hajj Man; 25th Jul 2004 at 18:29.
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Hajj Man
you got it right this time no 737 DEC going on 330, they may if at all only go on 300 or 320. Heard that people with a good 8000-9000 hrs were considered for 300 and guys with lesser experience on the 320 I had a friend do an interview along with some 737 pilots you were talking about.
I also agree with you that a lot of buzz on Jet Airways pilots joining but there is more buzz then the total no. of pilots joining.
Infact there are now more 737 pilots out of the far east airlines.you talk of some contact with the hiring manager to pull his countrymen in but we all know the selection process at QR and the major emphasis is on the interview and simulator check. Who is this new Hiring manager you are talking about sure would like to know I need to try and help a friend get a job as he is unemployed now.
you got it right this time no 737 DEC going on 330, they may if at all only go on 300 or 320. Heard that people with a good 8000-9000 hrs were considered for 300 and guys with lesser experience on the 320 I had a friend do an interview along with some 737 pilots you were talking about.
I also agree with you that a lot of buzz on Jet Airways pilots joining but there is more buzz then the total no. of pilots joining.
Infact there are now more 737 pilots out of the far east airlines.you talk of some contact with the hiring manager to pull his countrymen in but we all know the selection process at QR and the major emphasis is on the interview and simulator check. Who is this new Hiring manager you are talking about sure would like to know I need to try and help a friend get a job as he is unemployed now.