Emirates Pilot Meeting
Join Date: Jul 2002
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High Cirrus It has always been unwise to join ANY expat Airline IMHO other than as a Direct Entry Captain with the exception of Cathay and until recently Emirates.
Some people don't understand that once they join as an expat all the old rules go out of the window. You are on your own and upgrades have nothing to do with seniority, experience or how good/bad you are as a Pilot.
Any current Captain or high time F/O considering Emirates needs to think very carefully as to what he is letting himself in for. Years and Years possibly in the RHS!!!!! and getting poorer and poorer all the time.
Some people don't understand that once they join as an expat all the old rules go out of the window. You are on your own and upgrades have nothing to do with seniority, experience or how good/bad you are as a Pilot.
Any current Captain or high time F/O considering Emirates needs to think very carefully as to what he is letting himself in for. Years and Years possibly in the RHS!!!!! and getting poorer and poorer all the time.
This forum is very interesting with many of we 777 drivers in
Ba,and suddenly dear old blighty aint so bad after all.
Most airlines cannot compete aginst emirates commercially
especially when shake-yer-money owns the airline,the airport
,the atc,thecaa etc etc
Ba,and suddenly dear old blighty aint so bad after all.
Most airlines cannot compete aginst emirates commercially
especially when shake-yer-money owns the airline,the airport
,the atc,thecaa etc etc
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Wake up gentlmen and face the reality!!!some of you are leaving in a FANTASY ISLAND. The aviation industry is fast heading towards the ruins!! Look around you, SQ,CX,and a number of european CO following the same path. The accountants are doing the sums,the rest of us just doing the driving.
Grandpa Aerotart
Jabal...perhaps you should do a little more research. SQ/CX both VERY profitable...QF also, KA?-licence to print money.
Yeah a few US airlines suffering...more at the hands of their own govt security debacles than from the efforts of a handfull of Islamic Terrorists but there you go.
Even the average dimwitted Beancounter is/will be/ being dragged, innexorably, towards some of life's little inescapable facts.
1/. Insufficient pilots = aircraft parked instantly.
2/. Insufficient beancounters =....well, bliss really...certainly an instant + to the company bottom line....never been known to cause the instant immobilization of assets worth 100's of millions $ in capital costs and god knows what in cashflow!!
3/. SARS/**** (The War Against Terrorism) merely delayed the effects of MASSIVE retirements of baby boomers.
4/. Beancounters may have convinced themselves that modern aircraft don't need experienced crew but the reality is they do...still a few hull loses will fix that little mistake when pax vote with their feet.
5/. Experienced pilots are like any other commodity...they go to the hghest bidder!!
CX/KA have some of the highest paid pilots around and they are still highly profitable. Could it be that their (even more) highly paid beancounters are a little smarter than the average beany?
Chuck.
Yeah a few US airlines suffering...more at the hands of their own govt security debacles than from the efforts of a handfull of Islamic Terrorists but there you go.
Even the average dimwitted Beancounter is/will be/ being dragged, innexorably, towards some of life's little inescapable facts.
1/. Insufficient pilots = aircraft parked instantly.
2/. Insufficient beancounters =....well, bliss really...certainly an instant + to the company bottom line....never been known to cause the instant immobilization of assets worth 100's of millions $ in capital costs and god knows what in cashflow!!
3/. SARS/**** (The War Against Terrorism) merely delayed the effects of MASSIVE retirements of baby boomers.
4/. Beancounters may have convinced themselves that modern aircraft don't need experienced crew but the reality is they do...still a few hull loses will fix that little mistake when pax vote with their feet.
5/. Experienced pilots are like any other commodity...they go to the hghest bidder!!
CX/KA have some of the highest paid pilots around and they are still highly profitable. Could it be that their (even more) highly paid beancounters are a little smarter than the average beany?
Chuck.
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I am not trying to defend 411a, but admit is quite right, he is one of the few that didn't change is opinion in this forum....A lot of guys were blinded, they just got some sort of a reality check!
Lets accept other guys point of view, its part of the game....
Lets accept other guys point of view, its part of the game....
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Why so many unhappy pilots? Are they just a "lazy" bunch who want always want more? Did they suddenly wake up to have a huge moan?
The fact is this. Most would be happy if everything stayed just the way it was when they arrived. However relatively speaking things have got worse. Pay, conditions, prospects.... whatever. Hence the discontent.
The complaining is simply a human response to this. Bearing in mind this downward trend has been going on for some time, make any decision based on what conditions will become, not what they are now.
The fact is this. Most would be happy if everything stayed just the way it was when they arrived. However relatively speaking things have got worse. Pay, conditions, prospects.... whatever. Hence the discontent.
The complaining is simply a human response to this. Bearing in mind this downward trend has been going on for some time, make any decision based on what conditions will become, not what they are now.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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why why why???
do flight crew in the one of the best airlines in the world moan soooo much????I know sooo many drivers who have been here for years,they moaned then and in 5 years time they will still be moaning,but at the same time living in a big,fancy FREE villa just like mine and driving a big,gas guzling jeep,just like mine,and getting drunk most nights in town ,just like me.People this is the easy life here in Dubai and 99% of us LOVE it.EK is one of the best which is why soooo many want to be here and stay here.Worse than girls I tell you.Forgive my spelling but English is not my first language...............
moremilk for someone who's been registered for less than a month you've sure got a lot to say. I'd remind you that this forum is for the primary use of professional pilots to get the latest news, vent their spleen or do as they generally see fit. Aside from that we welcome all other professions within our industry to make comment or participate in the conversations. In fact there's even some forums dedicated to their use. But if you're going to jump on this pony and start insulting the folk who form the heart of this site then you will shortly find your access to this site limited or restricted. It's your call; do you want to continue to float around the bowl or do I pull the chain?
4HP
moremilk for someone who's been registered for less than a month you've sure got a lot to say. I'd remind you that this forum is for the primary use of professional pilots to get the latest news, vent their spleen or do as they generally see fit. Aside from that we welcome all other professions within our industry to make comment or participate in the conversations. In fact there's even some forums dedicated to their use. But if you're going to jump on this pony and start insulting the folk who form the heart of this site then you will shortly find your access to this site limited or restricted. It's your call; do you want to continue to float around the bowl or do I pull the chain?
4HP
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 5th Mar 2004 at 16:01.
Join Date: Apr 2003
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"One of the best airlines in the world" - well, not to work for. But the really sad part is that it could so easily be..... Moremilk, who did you work for before and how long have you been in Dubai?
Join Date: Jan 2004
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I am sorry but with all do respect, I don't really understand. I have been reading this Forums for few months now. All I have been reading is how BAD EK or QR is, and how this is a 3rd world country. Will I have Question? If it is so bad than Why don't you guys just pack your bags and go back home where things are much better. are you trying to tell me that you really care about me and my career. All you care about is your own careers. you figure if less people apply than the company has to give you what you want. if I am wrong than correct me Please. Best of luck ..
P.S
For your information Cathey Pacific is looking for pilot.
P.S
For your information Cathey Pacific is looking for pilot.
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Moremilk
I had a nice home (villa) back home, paid for....I had a nice 4X4 back home...I could buy all the boose I wanted, not on a limited licence, back home...
So those are not the reasons why I came to Dubai.... And I think a lot of guys wanting to join think the same....
Maybe you come from a place where you didn't get those sort of goods, but a lot of guys are not impressed by such things...
May be if you bring arguements of substance (not material) you will be more credible...
Enjoy the scary driving around Dubai with your fuel guzzler!!!
I had a nice home (villa) back home, paid for....I had a nice 4X4 back home...I could buy all the boose I wanted, not on a limited licence, back home...
So those are not the reasons why I came to Dubai.... And I think a lot of guys wanting to join think the same....
Maybe you come from a place where you didn't get those sort of goods, but a lot of guys are not impressed by such things...
May be if you bring arguements of substance (not material) you will be more credible...
Enjoy the scary driving around Dubai with your fuel guzzler!!!
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Out Of The Blue: Before uprooting the whole family, better let your pilot husband go solo to see if he can get comfortable.
It's not just about assimilating to a new job, it's about digesting an alien culture and about living in a sandbox with much higher summer temperatures than you are accustomed to in Ontario.
It's not just about assimilating to a new job, it's about digesting an alien culture and about living in a sandbox with much higher summer temperatures than you are accustomed to in Ontario.
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Yes, Lounge Lizard we are still here. We have had a ton of Private Messages and just want to say thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond; it has been greatly appreciated.
Living in Dubai is not a concern, I am well aware of the crazy drivers, the hot summers and the bureaucracy (i.e. all the paper work you go through just to obtain a drivers license). This is not of real big concern, I definitely think that there is a lot of good things about living in Dubai. I think that part of it really comes down to a personal choice (depending on where you are coming from and what type of lifestyle you are looking for).
Our major concerns are:
Career progression, financial security & good working relations
1. First you have the DEC's and then the pilots on the accelerated course. Where does that leave guys who are just being hired as F/O's? With no sort of structure i.e. seniority list, the rules and policies can change at any time as they obviously already have. By the sounds of it being hired as a F/O with EK, you could be taking the chance that you may never see a left seat. EVER!
2. The salary was never an issue, we knew what EK was paying before we applied and that was fine. However in reading some of the posts (EK PAY) it once again leaves us with concern.
In 1992 an EK First Officer made 15500 AED
In 2004 an EK First Officer makes 16760 AED
From 1990 -2000 the General Retail Price Inflation was: 44.9%
From 1990-2002 it was 51.2% (2002 figure corrected to 1990 base)
Things in Dubai are becoming more and more expensive all the time. At the present time would be able to manage just fine on the salary, however down the road it could be a different story, if the cost of living continues to increase and the pay cheques don't. A lot to think about especially when you have a family to take care of.
3. The third issue is management, and I am only speaking for myself, as my husband is once again away flying.
If I owned a company and my management addressed the employees in the manner that apparently the EK management did last week I would FIRE their ASSES!! No matter what the situation is and whether or not the situation can be rectified, the way that management handled the meeting and spoke to the pilots in my mind is most detrimental thing that you could do to a company and morale of its people.
From the posts I have read and the fact that there has been 13,750 hits to this site in the past week I think this proves my point.
Career Progression, Financial Security & Good Working Realations..... At the end of the day is that not what we are all looking for?
Living in Dubai is not a concern, I am well aware of the crazy drivers, the hot summers and the bureaucracy (i.e. all the paper work you go through just to obtain a drivers license). This is not of real big concern, I definitely think that there is a lot of good things about living in Dubai. I think that part of it really comes down to a personal choice (depending on where you are coming from and what type of lifestyle you are looking for).
Our major concerns are:
Career progression, financial security & good working relations
1. First you have the DEC's and then the pilots on the accelerated course. Where does that leave guys who are just being hired as F/O's? With no sort of structure i.e. seniority list, the rules and policies can change at any time as they obviously already have. By the sounds of it being hired as a F/O with EK, you could be taking the chance that you may never see a left seat. EVER!
2. The salary was never an issue, we knew what EK was paying before we applied and that was fine. However in reading some of the posts (EK PAY) it once again leaves us with concern.
In 1992 an EK First Officer made 15500 AED
In 2004 an EK First Officer makes 16760 AED
From 1990 -2000 the General Retail Price Inflation was: 44.9%
From 1990-2002 it was 51.2% (2002 figure corrected to 1990 base)
Things in Dubai are becoming more and more expensive all the time. At the present time would be able to manage just fine on the salary, however down the road it could be a different story, if the cost of living continues to increase and the pay cheques don't. A lot to think about especially when you have a family to take care of.
3. The third issue is management, and I am only speaking for myself, as my husband is once again away flying.
If I owned a company and my management addressed the employees in the manner that apparently the EK management did last week I would FIRE their ASSES!! No matter what the situation is and whether or not the situation can be rectified, the way that management handled the meeting and spoke to the pilots in my mind is most detrimental thing that you could do to a company and morale of its people.
From the posts I have read and the fact that there has been 13,750 hits to this site in the past week I think this proves my point.
Career Progression, Financial Security & Good Working Realations..... At the end of the day is that not what we are all looking for?
Last edited by out.of.the.blue; 6th Mar 2004 at 04:22.
Join Date: May 2003
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EK has 1000 pilots today, needs 2100 in 2012.
today 550 captains, so lets say they need 1100 by 2012.
that means 550 upgrades in 8 years, then they will hire 150 DEC (thats what they said) so that makes 400 upgrades unless they hire more DEC.
EK has already 400 F/O's so if the last one is lucky, he will get his command 2012 (but I think they will take more DEC because its cheaper).
ps: dont forget all the local F/O's who will have the hours in the next few years, they will also be in front of the new joiners.
today 550 captains, so lets say they need 1100 by 2012.
that means 550 upgrades in 8 years, then they will hire 150 DEC (thats what they said) so that makes 400 upgrades unless they hire more DEC.
EK has already 400 F/O's so if the last one is lucky, he will get his command 2012 (but I think they will take more DEC because its cheaper).
ps: dont forget all the local F/O's who will have the hours in the next few years, they will also be in front of the new joiners.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Here's another problem as I see it for Emirates:
Lots of new 777-300ERs coming form 1/2005, in fact one a month for the next few years.
Emirates needs Captains and FOs to fly these a/c.
Training Capts p*ssed off at pay and conditions so are resigning.
Hence need New Training Capts to train all the new FOs ( because as we are told there are always lots queuing up to join!!!).
Problem - if take Line Capts OFF to train as Training Capts there won't be enough Line Capts to fly the normal schedule. If they don't take them OFF there won't be enough FOs trained to fly the new a/c.
DECs - quite a few have failed so far and do I care, to be honest no, they shouldn't have needed to come here in the first place. There are so many guys here already who could do the job (all ex Captains with a lot of experience) but Management do not have the balls to tell the Sheik what the promotion criteria is doing to the Company. MORALE IS ROCK BOTTOM. I joined on accel command and the rules changed and I am now deemed not experienced enough for accel upgrade. I have to wait 3yrs yet I regularly fly with Capts who have less hours than me (both total and command hours).
Such a pity as it should/ could be a great place to be. Unfortunately I've started to look for other jobs as I have to have a back up plan because I just don't trust management when they say when I get to 3 yrs I'll have a command!!!!!
For SVP FO and also our EVO E&FO - take the blinkers off, listen to what is being said and try and do something. You may have 3000 people trying to join but you have to deal with the people here at the moment.
Lots of new 777-300ERs coming form 1/2005, in fact one a month for the next few years.
Emirates needs Captains and FOs to fly these a/c.
Training Capts p*ssed off at pay and conditions so are resigning.
Hence need New Training Capts to train all the new FOs ( because as we are told there are always lots queuing up to join!!!).
Problem - if take Line Capts OFF to train as Training Capts there won't be enough Line Capts to fly the normal schedule. If they don't take them OFF there won't be enough FOs trained to fly the new a/c.
DECs - quite a few have failed so far and do I care, to be honest no, they shouldn't have needed to come here in the first place. There are so many guys here already who could do the job (all ex Captains with a lot of experience) but Management do not have the balls to tell the Sheik what the promotion criteria is doing to the Company. MORALE IS ROCK BOTTOM. I joined on accel command and the rules changed and I am now deemed not experienced enough for accel upgrade. I have to wait 3yrs yet I regularly fly with Capts who have less hours than me (both total and command hours).
Such a pity as it should/ could be a great place to be. Unfortunately I've started to look for other jobs as I have to have a back up plan because I just don't trust management when they say when I get to 3 yrs I'll have a command!!!!!
For SVP FO and also our EVO E&FO - take the blinkers off, listen to what is being said and try and do something. You may have 3000 people trying to join but you have to deal with the people here at the moment.
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Everything seems pretty much crystal clear to me, expect for why all of the Training Captains are leaving. I know that everyone seems to be ticked off right now, but it seems that the Training Captains are especially ticked and they are the ones in fact that are leaving. Could someone please give me some clarification on why that is. Thanks
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O.O.T.B Its because they spend every waking hour in the simulator, their rosters are crap, they have no quality lifestyle and for all that they took a pay cut about a year ago. Yeah, I think that's about it..