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Collective Colour Vision Thread 4

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Collective Colour Vision Thread 4

Old 22nd Apr 2013, 16:05
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: London
Posts: 5
The British government is conducting a review into red-tape in General Aviation, can I suggest any Brits here drop an e-mail to them or the MP Grant Shapps who is overseeing it, arguing that the rule is unnecessary, discriminates and is yet another rule holding back 1 in 10 of us gentlemen.
We should take this rare chance whilst they're listening.
It's worth noting that Grant Shapps has a PPL too...
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Old 22nd Apr 2013, 23:25
  #222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 110
Link to the red tape review to which 150bugsmasher refers to can be found here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/g...tape-challenge

If you email this MP, it would also be worth referring him to the CVDPA website which has loads of information on just how discriminatory and unnecessary the colour perception standard is.
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Old 24th Apr 2013, 11:08
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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hi i had a read about this chap, looks and sound ok, i think what should be advised to him is that although i dont think that the authoirty would ever stop some form of colour vision testing, but to make it fair and related to the job.

first instance would be the pass standard for the ishishara test, we would probably find a hell of allot of pilots that manage to achieve the 13/15 standard and thats was really annoys me and others, the cad.... dont want to get started but CAA failed to do one thing, they tested me on the full 15 minutes, without advising me of the quick test, further more they advised that with my results 7.44 any other test on cad if they had to average the score they would use that result, now bearing in mind that i was told that any score below 7 would be challanged with a retest, there is no information relating to this either from city directly and certianlly regarding the point that results over 7 units will also be averaged out.

The whole system from the vision of the CAA is flawed with errors and people experiencing issues with it...

Also how come the CAA stated that only medicals couild be done at gatwick, and yet this is now being done at NATS in swanick, not just for ATCO!!!!
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Old 15th May 2013, 15:19
  #224 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here Nor There
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Here's a cracker.

I recently spoke to a bloke who had an unrestricted Class 2 medical, having passed (15/15) the Ishihara test with the AME but he was aware that, although his choices were all correct some of them could have gone either way, where on some plates he could 'see' two numbers. This does happen with some persons who may be on the border of CVD.

He them went to a high street optometrist for another check before ging for the Class 1 medical. Again he passed with 15/15.

He then went down to Gatwick and guess what, he failed......surprise, surprise.

He then was invited to take the CAD test at considerable expense to himself which he passed and was given an unrestricted Class 1 medical.

However, he was not satisfied that the Ishihara Test had been conducted correctly at Gatwick, therefore I arranged for him to be tested again, this time in natural daylight conditions as per the manufacturer's instructions. I personally witnessed him achieving 15/15.

Now, ask yourselves this; how can someone achieve three 15/15 passes in three independent tests yet fail in circumstances where such a failure is going to make more money for the organization (or person - I don't know) conducting the test?

I leave it to the jury of fairness and reason.


Last edited by 2close; 15th May 2013 at 15:19.
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Old 9th Jun 2013, 16:28
  #225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 207
that's because the ishihara test plates at gatwick are old and faded, and thats how they pay the game, ive had the plates done again with an optician that i dont know so there is no faulse recording and full 15/15,

i do wonder how the optometrist at gatwick feels when he knows that he is failing people, every time i had a renewal for faa i had to redo the book, and the same little marks and tears on the book confirm the plates or book are not replaced as advised, and im talking about seeing this book over a person of 3-5 years, not only is he failing the pilots over this, also failing professionally as a health provider.
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Old 14th Jun 2013, 19:16
  #226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 33
CAD Test Redo

Hi Guys, about 6 months ago, having failed the Ishihara plates during my class 2 medical, I booked in for a CAD test at Gatwick. Unfortunately I failed the main test by what I was told was a significant threshold, but I scored 80% in the screening test, which I'm told if I would have obtained 2 more correct answers in I wouldn't have had to persevere with the main test and would have then become unrestricted. I'm recorded as having a Protan deficiency, r-g threshold 17.72, y-b threshold 0.57.

I'm considering doing a re-test, although I know I would now have to obtain an average between the two tests which is adequate, rather than just one. Also, I'm wondering do they give you the option of the screening test the 2nd time round, as this seems by far the easiest way to pass.

Like many others, I'm obsessed with the thought of flying commercially, and wondering if I move to Austrailia, which I gather is one of the few places that doesn't regard colour deficiency as critical, can I work as a commercial pilot.

I currently have a VFR restricted Class 2 medical.

Thanks.

Last edited by mtanz0; 14th Jun 2013 at 19:19.
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Old 15th Jun 2013, 12:43
  #227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 28
Colour Deficiency and RAF

Dear Forum Members,

I am a deutranomoly (slight red-green colour deficiency) and was wandering if this disqualifies me from becoming an Air Traffic Controller for the RAF.

I cannot see any of the Ishihara plates.

Thank you for your help!
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Old 15th Jun 2013, 14:50
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 207
flyingblind uk,

Hello mate, yes you will be considered unsafe, all air duties according to raf standards are that for air duties cp2 is the standard, ie 15/15 for ishihara, cp3 is for holmes-wright lantern, but cp2 is required.
Scottish.CPL is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2013, 15:18
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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cad is still not approved by easa and the caa are issuing medicals with this test, the problem is that the cad test is being promoted as the golden standard and that its 100% accurate, that B****it,

i take it you did the fast cad failed , and then the 15 min long test!!!

i believe proton level pass is 12 units, and you got 17.72, to be honest i think you will be wasting money because your 5x over the limit, be different if you were lets say 12.5 or even 13 units, that's close, one of two presentations went wrong direction..

you've entered a situation that we are all in wither we pass the plates to 13/15 and jaa rules are too high, or indeed you are unsafe!! just a thought,
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Old 15th Jun 2013, 19:47
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: UK
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With NATS, failing the Ishihara Test means you have to do the CAD test. Is there a similar alternative with the RAF?
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Old 15th Jun 2013, 19:50
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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nats have the same standards, as the caa or easa, the raf have the same pass standard as civil aviation, cad is just a fancy computer game,
Scottish.CPL is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2013, 13:46
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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The RAF uses the Holmes-Wright Type B Lantern Test for secondary testing.

If you are unable to see any of the Ishihara plates I would not expect that you would pass any of the secondary tests.

I would also be a tad concerned as some are designed to be visible to colour deficient persons, although with some numbers appearing more prominent than others, to determine whether you are protonomalous or deuteronomalous.

Also, if you cannot see the first plate there is a very serious problem as everyone should be able to read that, unless you do suffer with a form of numerical 'blindness' - the test has tracing and shape cards for persons who cannot read numbers.

Last edited by 2close; 17th Jun 2013 at 13:51.
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Old 20th Jun 2013, 19:28
  #233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Yorkshire
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Hi all,

I've been following this thread for a few months now as I had a nightmare with the CAA and colour deficiency.

I went for my class 1 medical at the start of March this year and having managed the health side of things was quickly advised i had a colour deficiency.

Realising what this could mean i became a bit flustered and when the CAD test was offered to me I snapped at the chance and after a brief explanation from the nurse, started the test.

I wasn't in the greatest frame of mind at the time and as the test went on got more frustrated by my lack of ability to see the colours on the grid and the longer it went on, the worse i got, and the quicker i tried to finish. When i finished i was advised i had a deutan deficiency and my result was 7.44, cut off point being 6. Obviously, i was devastated and issued with a restricted medical.

I was advised to look at this site and saw Matt1991 had gone to the City University to sit the CAD test with them, stating it was a much better environment to have the test and he subsequently benefited by passing the test.

I booked the full CVD tests at the college, and everything Matt said was true. Upon my arrival was met by a very friendly optometrist who explained everything about the test fully to me. I was told to take my time, explained how the threshold test works properly, that i wont see all the colours all the time, took the test, and got a 5.29! Still deficient but fell within Gatwicks parameters.

I contacted the CAA and explained my situation to them and after about 4 weeks, was contacted and invited back to Gatwick to have the CAD test again (for free as well!).

I went down on Tuesday, sat through 3 full tests (horrible), and came up with the same results that i had at City University. Even with my initial 7.44, my average was well below the 6 score required and i was granted a full medical! The optometrist (Mr Chorley) was at a loss as to why results could differ so much to which i explained that it was because I felt I was ill advised with regards to the first test, felt pressured into taking it quickly and that having had the test at City University, I was better prepared to take the test again. The only plus point with regards to the CAA was the fact they didn't charge me!

I'd like to thank everyone on the thread as there is some great advice on here and without this, I would still be stewing over my original results! My advice, contact Marisa at City University on 020 7040 0262, makes much more sense paying them than Gatwick!
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Old 20th Jun 2013, 21:33
  #234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 28
@2close thanks for the reply, Sir. I may have exaggerated a little bit as there are a few plates I can see and then another few I can barely see. Most of them however remain invisible to me.

@Chrissyuk interesting post man! +1
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Old 21st Jun 2013, 07:45
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
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Chrissyuk, i found your message really interesting, i got the same score of cad as you, and felt the same way, ie pressure. second caa claim that cad is 100 percent accurate so no averaging of scored does that not mean that the test is in question, so we both failed to achieve the 6 unit score, in theory that should have been the end of it, you went to city and found it a better environment and passed with them!! VERY INTERESTING,

remember that cad is still not approved from easa's point of view and therefore if easa dont approve it then you are in possession of a medical that in not legal!! just under the CAA's eyes only

second 'contacted and invited back to Gatwick to have the CAD test again ' why , don't they trust the institute that designed the test in the first place,

im wondering if its time for me to go to city and do what you did!!
Scottish.CPL is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2013, 17:41
  #236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Sussex
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ChrissyUK - Just out of interest, when they initially issued you a restricted medical, was it class 1 or class 2?
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Old 23rd Jun 2013, 22:02
  #237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Yorkshire
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Scottish CPL, I've just re-read the letter from the CAA and they say that the CAD test performed at City wasn't a a test for aviation standards..... Not sure how they worked that one out as its the same test?!
The first time I did the test at Gatwick, the nurse who told me I had failed turned around and said that because I wasn't too far out of the 'pass mark', I could do it again and maybe bring my average down. Like you say, if its a definitive test, why would they allow that as we well as my invite back? The whole process just makes me think there is no structure to any of it. They don't seem to have any definite guidelines and make bits up as they go. It'd suit them down to the ground to keep getting people back or re-tests at 150 a pop.

I'd definitely have a go at City, I feel like you'd definitely know where you stand afterwards and I'd resent paying more money to the CAA. Plus, if it does work out there is now a precedence for a free re-test at Gatwick!

Dobbin1 it was a restricted class 1 medical.
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Old 24th Jun 2013, 14:37
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
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i had to laugh at part of your reply, not are yourself, but the part about being close to the pass mark and to do it again, i was told that i i got between 6 and 7 uints i could be retested!!! we both scored 7.44

I would like to know what is the difference between the city version and the gatwick version, i might call city and ask, because all i hear in my thought are Bullsh**, the ishihara test is not aviation orientated, just a pediatric test!!

i need to find out how to get to city university from flights or train up north,
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Old 24th Jun 2013, 18:57
  #239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Posts: 319
Dobbin1 it was a restricted class 1 medical
Interesting. I thought that it was no longer possible to add the CVD restrictions to an EASA class 1. My restricted class 1 runs out shortly and I am resigned to loosing my CPL due to the fact that I can't have the CVD restrictions on a class 1 and will need to drop to class 2.

Are the CAA making up their own rules now?
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Old 25th Jun 2013, 10:46
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here Nor There
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Yes, and as things stand that medical will be worthless outside the UK.

They are inventing deviations for applying to UK issued medicals, which do not exist in EASA Part-MED - EC Reg 1178/2011 is THE LAW! - and this is all going to end in tears for some individuals.

You can rest assured that the CAA will not accept any liability.

dobbin1

Bad news; officially, your restricted Class 1 became null and void as soon as it became an EASA Part-MED Class 1, i.e. the date of implementation of Part-FCL/MED in the UK, and as you already know EASA Part-MED does not permit CVD deviations on Class 1 medicals. However, the good news - the UK CAA is continuing to issue CVD deviations on Class 1 medicals, with the No Public Transport/No Night Flight in place. So if you are happy to continue as you are, you can keep your CPL but it will only be valid in UK airspace. The old days of being able to keep a CPL and a PPL on the go simultaneously have gone - only one licence now!! It is a bl**dy mess.


Last edited by 2close; 25th Jun 2013 at 10:52.
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