niallp

Ponte i got 7.10 and im deutan. Does any know if i would have a chance at gettin a score of 6 or under??

2close

niallp,

Of course you have a chance of passing.

Given that each person was only tested once during the aviation related study there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to validate replication of performance.

Some people have taken part in both the aviation and the railways studies and performed differently in both tests, so apart from the fact that this proves that the CAD Test is inaccurate as a diagnostic tool there is always a chance that a person failing one day could pass the next!!

Alternatively, just close your eyes and guess - you have a 1 in 4 chance of being right every single time which are not bad odds considering what's at stake.

In either case, it just goes to show how poorly thought out this CAD Test study and implementation has been and it wouldn't surprise me to see the CAA and AVRC being hauled over the coals within the next couple of years, especially when they start messing working commercial pilots about.

colourblindgeek

Whoooooaaa! Hold on....

So the CAD test is now official?

If you have received a letter from the CAA saying that you've failed - then does that mean they are passing and failing people on the CAD test?

I shall put pen to paper to our chums at the CAA to see where we are with this?

If they are failing people based on this, then where are the passes?

Did the CAA actually say that you will not get an Unrestricted Class 1 based on your CAD test results, or was it more of a

"you've failed on the Holmes Wright etc.... but by the way don't hold your breath on the CAD test because you would fail that if it were introduced"

Ponte

Hold your horses mate.

I've presented current JAA lanterns results and also CAD.
They said if CAD were in place I wouldn't get through given the proposed limits.
Meaningless to say theyr denial was based on the lanterns.

Nothing to hold on to on this matter.

cheers

TelBoy

For those that have had results back from the CAA and taken the CAD at Aviation House, do a Subject Access Request to them (costs £10) and you will most likely see that they sent your results to the City Uni to get a numerical result. Without your permission is this not a breach of confidence?

Now that the JAA is no longer, where does this leave things like the spectrolux - the CAA can easily say NO to a pass in Switzerland. On the other hand without the JAA the CAA can easily say yes to a practical flight test to demonstrate your abilities. After all the CAA have published a document highlighting colour critical tasks for pilots - why wont they allow us to prove in the real world that we can do these tasks , or not as the case may be.

I have had a formal request for a practical test refused and also told I would fail the CAD on the results they have for me. Now my feeling is that if I passed the practical test it would then show their new toy to be a piece of junk.

I would also be interested to see if anyone that has had CAD results back from the CAA have any other comments regarding the health of their eyes - please PM me if so.

I would also like to add my welcome to Dr Pape here, a true hero that has allowed so many to follow their dreams in Australia.

Barracus

Hi guys

Been a long time reader of this thread. This is my first post.

I fail the Ishihara and all lantern tests in the UK.

1. I understand that with a colour vision restricted JAA class 1 medical I can obtain a CPL and work as a flight instructor (day only) in the UK. Is that correct???

2. Does the same apply in the States under the FAA with regard to working as an FI??? (I could not find any info on this in the thread).

Thanks guys

Ponte

Hi there friends.
I've failed all there is to fail but I believe the exams are too strict compared to real life. I already piloted an A320 mcc simulator without any problems.
My only problem is confusing very light green with white which I think it's not related to the pilot tasks of what so ever.

I'm mild deuteranolamlous.

During my exams I've been told that even in USA or Australia, we may pass alternative exams but companies won't hire you because they have private exams.
Have you got any different information?

Also, I was told in spiez (switzerland, spectrolux lantern) that there are 4 countries that want to remove the color vision restrictions as they are, which are UK, Sueden, Ireland and the 4th I don't recall.
The other members oppose to this change in JAR.
In 2011 this document will be reviewed but the same people will vote with the same ideals.

We should unite to fight this thing instead of see what happens in the small chats.
I'm tempted to build a database with info and perhaps use this information latter to complete or contrapose their evidences. Is anyone up to this?

Regards

niallp

Ponte,
You have the right idea to fight this. If enough of us make enough noise and go about fighting this the right way something has to be done. Im 100% with you as im sure are so many others but how would we do this and where would we start?

Ponte

I'm building a quick database to get info of how many of us are there and which exams did we fail to get a good sample.

Well that't not so simple, they also say we should speak to airplane builders in order to change their green/red displays.. They will always have an argument. They said I wouldn't have problems identifying the green bu if I'm tired or...watch this, if the luminance is nod adequate I may not identify the green on the display..

I'll share the link with you asap.

cheers

Arthur Pape

We need to maintain the facts: some US and Aussie airlines DO test for colour vision defects, some don't.

Arthur Pape

To the best of my knowledge, the New Zealand colour vision screening is very tight, and very different from that applied in Australia, just across the Tasman Sea. In Australia, we DO HAVE cvd pilots flying sophisticated glass cockpit jet aircraft. My proposal is to utilize some of these in properly designed and conducted research to establish the validity or invalidity, once and for all, of the ICAO standard. More on this in the near future!!

Arthur Pape

dcdriver asked about CASA accepting a US result for a signal gun test: I DOUBT IT. But watch this space!!

Arthur Pape

Finally for tonight, thanks to the few who did respond to one of my earlier posts, inviting them to share with me their stories of succeeding in the upper levels of aviation, notwithstanding their colour vision. In brief, I am attempting to create a database of pilots who, through whatever means, have succeeded in passing or in bypassing the colour perceptions standard. In Australia, we do have a significant cohort of colour defective pilots engaged in sophisticated RPT operations, in fully EFIS equipped aircraft, and undergoing the standard battery of check and training tests that all such pilots undergo at very regular intervals. The interesting thing is that they appear (anecdotally) to be indistinguishable in terms of performance from their colour normal peers. The reason that this is so, is that colour is NOT USED in the way that protagonists would have you believe in providing safety essential information to ANY PILOT.
I mentioned the database earlier. It is important that to progress the case for colour defective pilots or wannabee pilots, we start to build up some real and empirical evidence as to their performance, and the only way to do this is to conduct research in which both colour defective and colour normal pilots are measured in their performance proficiency and safety in AVIATION REALISTIC TASKS, not in the multitudes of colour vision tests and quazi colour vision test masquerading as "experiments" that keep surfacing to try to bamboozle the real issue. There are enough colour vision tests NOW, and producing more will solve nothing for either regulators or colour defective pilots. WE ARE ALL COLOUR DEFECTIVE, and we don't need more colour vision tests, no matter what the claimed advantage of one over the other.

In my search for people to volunteer their stories to me I need more detail than merely stating what jets they fly and how they managed to side step the standard. That is not useful information. I need, if known, the history of the colour perception tests attempted and failed, the diagnosis of the defect, again, if known, and a brief but accurate flying CV. Naturally, all information will be treated in the strictest confidence. I submit my past record of activism in the colour perception world as proof of that. So if anyone out there would like to contact me, even tentativley, I would love to hear from you.

Arthur Pape

TelBoy

The Colour Vision requirements in NZ can be found here http://www.caa.govt.nz/medical/Med_I...ets/MIS006.pdf

TelBoy

It will be interesting for the winners and losers of the CAD test to tell there story here.

As for me - a loser (well actually no better or worse than the old tests).

It will also be interesting to see how this develops. They have proposed a cut down CAD test for initial screening to replace ishahara and colour vision testing at EVERY medical.

Also the CAA have been able to go it alone on this because of the JAA not existing anymore - it will be interesting to see what happens when EASA take over FCL, and as for the FAA???

PPRuNeUser0161

So if the CAD is to be used at every renerwal that means you should be able to take the test in the hope that your CV has changed for the better!!!!!!

Interesting days indeed, in the long term I predict no test CAD or otherwise. I do stress long term however.

TelBoy

As history is always in the making and the CAD is just the latest, I should like to take a look at the past to try and predict the future.

A long time ago before the JAA (1990's) there were three medical classes in UK CAA structure. Class 1 for ATP and CPL, Class 2 for BCPL and Class 3 for PPL.

Now this is where things in licencing have changed. If you went for CPL via the Integrated route you did it in the same hours as today (if I remember right - was 150 or 200 hours, please correct me if I'm wrong). However if you went for CPL via the Modular route, it was known as the self improver and you needed 700 hours for CPL. Now the BCPL could be issued at 200 hours and allowed you to be paid for non public transport work such as instructing.

The Class 1 medical could NOT have any deviation for colour vision, but the Class 2 medical could - so you could be a paid instructor with CVD. For those that are interested I will list the conditions from my 1992 Class 2.

CODE: SCD STANDARD VISUAL DEFICIENCY CONDITION
(a) flights by day only;
(b) flights within UK, Channel Island and Isle of Man, provided that flights within the territory of other contracting states may be made, subject to authorisation in writing by such states;
(c) use at aerodromes or landing grounds where, if air traffic control is provided, it is by means of radio communication; and
(d) aircraft used by the holder for flights to aerodromes or landing grounds where Air Traffic Control is provided by means of radio communication, must be equipped with radio telephony equipment to be used by the holder to comply with Air Traffic instructions.


Now from this history lesson we can see that when the JAA went to the two medical classes we know today the CAA took into account those CVD Class 2 subjects to issue a deviation at class 1. It basically gives us the same privileges as the old BCPL, so nothing was taken away.

Now the EASA is the next stumbling block. As the UK is the only state to issue deviation for CVD and the EASA will take the whole of Europe into account it could seem likely that the C1 deviation will disappear! Maybe it will simply not be issued any more, but those that already have the deviation can keep it (seems to sensible to work in Euro land!!), who knows.

Now for the CAD. At present the CAD is simply replacing the Holmes Wright and Beyne lanterns at Gatwick (assume they will be on ebay soon ) and the CAD is only taken at the initial medical. If it does get to the stage where the CAD is taken at every medical, it will work in CVD favour :-

1) Many experienced captains might well loose their medical and start legal action

2) We would be able to do what they do in the US with the Farnsworth Lantern and simply go from AME to AME until you eventually pass!

I don't think either of the above options would provide a useful addition to aviation safety, so lets work for a sensible and working option.

The following months and years will surly be history in the making for the CVD pilot in Europe and maybe even the US, or even all ICAO states. The UK CAA has made a bold move with the CAD test and seem to be "selling" it well, but I do feel that the future will show that it was another missed opportunity and something else that didn't work!!

Dr Pape has made an excellent post above and I feel that it is only practical testing that can determine an applicants true abilities. I have always maintained that any pilot must be able to demonstrate satisfactory all required tasks needed for the licence or rating sort.

The UK CAA has refused me a practical test - I guess it would only junk their CAD toy if I passed!!

2close

Well, I hope they have a suitable alternative for their CAD Test because I will be refusing to take it as it has made me physically ill on each occasion that I have taken it, on one occasion causing me to lose work through illness as an employee of the.........errr..........CAA!!!!!

niallp

So the cad is finally in?!! has anyone gone to take it yet and been successful? I think i'lll have to head over and give it a go. Is it true you need a score of 6 or less for deuterans to pass? thanks

ChecklistPlease

Hi Guys,

I'm in the Royal Navy still at BRNC in IOT.

This is on belhalf of my friend, who which has just graduated from Uni. He also applied to the Navy for Pilot and failed the medical on Colour Vision, therefore he is now looking at working in the commercial world.

What testing methods are now in use at Gatwick, CAD? Ishishara What is CAD? What method?, is it the moving coloured Block grid screening or, PAPI/ PSL Lights to be identified correctly??

Thanks for your much welcomed answers.

Checklistplease