Ryanair
 

Hi,

Basically i'm considering paying for a rating with Ryanair (No smart arse comments please)

I am just after a brief description of the process... Usual stuff like do they guarentee you a job, how long does it take from rating to RHS? etc etc..

Any of you guys been there and done it please share your experience!

Without the usual 'Don't work for Ryanair gags' please!

VC10

VC10L1011: Unlike the majority of people who will come on here and offer an opinion on a company they don't work for, as a recently hired Pilot I can offer you some facts, and not what I have heard down the pub. I do this as a warning and not looking for sympathy.

The first Major problem you’re going to encounter is the time between starting your type rating course and doing your base check, which is the point you start to get paid. This used to be 4-6 weeks. There are a frightening amount STILL waiting, UNPAID , 7+ MONTHS since they started the TR. This is not an isolated incident, it’s a regular occurrence.

So the first question is asking yourself can you live for the thicker end of a year with no money?

The Pay is the second Major problem. The Deal was changed at the end of the summer. You will now get zero sector pay during the first 6 months of your contract. It used to be that you would get sector pay after line check. No, you get a basic rate of STG 8900 per annum while training. This works out at about STG 7.50 an hour when flying 100 hrs a month, or about STG 270 a week. For Six months! After the first six months, you will still only be on half sector pay for the following six months. Don't forget sector pay is the larger part of the salary here. You might think like I did: "Fine I'll be at home it will be a tight few months, but I'll get through it," It will be worth it in the end.. ", you keep telling yourself. But hang on a minute, you will almost certainly be sent abroad for line training for 6 months, and then probably moved again after the 6 months. So you have to pay for 6 month worth of B&Bs. On STG 8900 a year.

It’s very hard to admit when you have made a mistake, no one wants to admit how foolish they have been, but I will. I was a fool to take this "job".

You will need 40K Euro at least to start. Type rating, 5-600 Euro for the uniform, airside pass, background checks, flights, hotels, B&Bs, salary for 7 months, and the sheer heartache of it all.

I was blinded by the whole thing, I thought I had done well to pass the interview; I was desperate for a job after waiting so long with no replies from any other companies.

The price of admission was too high however. I now have an unbelievable level of debt and I make less then the No.3 Cabin Crew for a year. Think very carefully before you take this thing on.

Would I do it again? No way.

Couldn´t agree more with Carmoisine, Right now I am going through what he already lived, I finished the T/R at the end of July, and still waiting to start the line training, and right now I am really disappointed. Think well before you do anything. Before I use to fly piston, but at least I had a life. Maybe on the long run I´ll be pleased with my decision, although right now, I must admit that this has by far been the worst year in my entire life. By the way I got a deal with my bank to start paying for the 30K loan after a year, and I also signed the old contract, and I still can´t see the light at the end of the tunnel, imagine if I had signed that new contract Carmoisine is talking about, i´d probably be selling my body to mature ladies by now.

Regards

Many thanks for the replies so far guys, keep em coming good or bad...

Good posts, well done Guys, it takes alot to admit wrong decisions.
I hope this will make some wannabe's take note, That it really is not a good idea to rush out and get type rated without a firm offer, alot of you will end up leaving the industry with alot of debt and a bad taste for aviation. LOOK INTO EVERY POSSIBLITY, there are options you just have to find them.

Fair play you guys ... coming on hear and admitting something was a mistake is not something many would do. Lets hope by these pieces of real life experience and advice that enough guys & girls are put off applying to this joke of an airline and this madness of paying for a job ends.

They are playing a cruel game with the hopes and dreams of people and get away with it because people are so desperate. A classic example of capitalism at its very worst imo :mad:

good thread, but if you know to read a contract, you know what to expect.
personaly, I hate to work for free or even pay the airline. pay to wake up at 4 am, go work all day, and at the end of the day: you didnt make any money!

no way!

unbelievable reading

just a quick question for the guys who are signed up
did you have previous airline experience if so atpl?

and question for anybody who knows or has heard something (no opinions please) will they ever pay for a co-pilots type rating (senior fo) valid rumours of bonding are also welcome

I can't believe this is happening.You can obviously try other airlines with the type in those 'seven' mths? Hope you guys pull thru ok. Cipri & Carm' check your pm's. Cheers S'

A320rider Please note I did not start this thread, I was answering a question asked by the thread starter. The problem for me is that the deal was changed before I signed the contract, I was already financially committed.

Standardbrief There are a fairly even spread of backgrounds on the mine, and the courses either side of mine.

The man in charge of the course at the school I was at showed me 3,000 applications he had recieved for the self sponsored type that he had recieved that year alone . So no, unless those 3,000 change their minds they won't be giving any free type ratings anytime soon.

This makes some poor reading!
Is there only me who has never applied ro Ryanair or refused refused to pay for my Type Rating?? :{

This is a pretty terrible thing to happen to you, but I've heard the same from other ex-colleagues of mine who have (tried to) joined FR.

Though much written here about FR I take with a massive pinch of salt, as I have other friends who work for them and really seem to enjoy it. Mind you, since we all used to work for the guaranteed worst company in the industry, a salt mine in Siberia would probably have been better!

Bad luck to those that have been affected by this. I don't think there's much comfort anyone can offer when you've been shafted like this.

I think the guys whom have semi ok experiences with FR on this scheme are tucked up in bed , ready for their 4am report! I just hope your right 'I say again slowly'! I have friends who have done their time at Fr, then moved on to more socialble employment.......at ASDA! .... just kidding............Tescos.:{

Oh my god!
Have to confess, had no-idea this sort of cr*p was going on...I fly a TP and have bug*er all money/income, little help from the Bank Of Parents every now and then, but will never moan about it again!!

And no, Longchop, your not alone, I cannot afford to apply to FR!

Just noticed the advert on the top of this page "Ryananir - The High Pay Airline"

Well thats two of us who have already made a stand,eh!!:p

Well said maverick 777, I hope to see you, cipri, carmoisine and others in the coming weeks on line. We all have our stories (nightmares) about the FR scheme !

Hmm, sounds very much like propaganda. I SERIOUSLY doubt there are that many fools out there, what with most other airlines recruiting.

Virtually every airline on this list is recruiting big time, some are seriously stuck for pilots. There is a LOT out there. Low hour guys are getting recruited in a big way in a lot of companies.
And if you're wondering why I don't go, I'm in FR long enough to have avoided all the $hit the current newbies suffer. Would I do it again on the current terms? Absolutely no way. Not worth the constant hassle, sim checks, line checks, managment bull$hit.

Carmousine and Cipri, well done on standing up and calling it like it is. The rest of you wannabes take note.

I cannot believe they have got this bad! When I joined FR on the TR scheme it was totally different. We got a salary after saftey pilot was released on line training and then after line check we went onto half sector pay for six months. After six months we got normal FO salary and full sector pay. Even when I was on half sector pay + cadet salary, it was still ok money, you could live happliy on it! There were also no delays when I joined, it was all really quick and on-line straight away.

To be honest I enjoy it and it's worked out well for me. But I have to say, reading the new terms and conditions of no sector pay for six months etc.. I don't think I would have bothered either! It really is a shame how they seem to sink lower all the time!

I wish you guys the very best of luck with it!

Actually, I do believe it! At Virgin, we have probably several thousand applicants on file. Many aren't qualified for the job either through lack of experience, the wrong licence, or lack of EU residency rights, but they apply anyway. We are looking for around 120 pilots this year, but it's now pretty difficult to find the kind of people we want - especially as we don't take people with less than around 3000 commercial hours.

Other airlines are less demanding of their applicants, but they still don't want to fill all of their new-joiner courses with ab-initio pilots as that creates quite serious experience gaps in the workforce. It also loads the training system hugely, as Ryanair are discovering. Therefore, even though there are many thousands of wannabe pilots out there (and not just from UK), it might be difficult for an airline to get the mix of experience it would like.

Scroggs

maverick777 says: Your problem is that the very situation you describe to be acceptable in the short term is working its way through the industry and will inevitably change the future - and not for the better. You also said:Had it not been for many outsiders the news would have been even slower in coming out. You don't seem to grasp the fact that once Ryanair has you in their clutches you will have a vested interest in keeping a low profile. Most people who have been royally screwed are simply unwilling to speak about it. At least we now have some people sending out warnings.

maverick777 I know that nothing will stop you. But I think you should be a bit more thoughtful and careful about what you are becoming involved in. Ryanair are not doing this as a favour to low-time pilots. Low time pilots are, for Ryanair, like Latvian cabin crew: easily manipulated, susceptable to propaganda and even grateful for the system of exploitation into which they enter. Above all, they are cheap and can be kept cheap by telling them "oh, sorry there was a mistake in your contract" - so you don't get .... full sector pay, or whatever.

there is a pilots shortage actually, airlines ask for 3000-4000 eavy jet, with this kind of requirement, they are looking everwhere for pilots and then say they are desperated, but when you go see interviewers, the do not give a **** about you and bring on his desk the 2000-3000 CV.

this is the market, and as I have said in one of my posts, the world has a pool of pilots for many years.I think we are more than 15000 pilots only for Europe and airlines will just keep their minimum requirement at 2000-3000 hours.

this is like cinema in LA, many actors, few will be on the big screen.the rest of them will live with small jobs like taxi driver, truck driver,...or for bad paid TV advertising jobs.Still , hollywood say they have a shortage of actors...
and soon the car industry will say the same after kicking out 30'000 of workers.


about the job at ryanair, this is reserved for fortunate people, yes, they pay well (pilots pay well their Orealy!!)
unfortunately, I am too old to join them, but would I??? certainly not.

do not give up, airlines have a shortage of pilots....:ugh: :{ :ugh:

Maverick777 you posted a good explanation why things are going so wrong in this industry,there are other factors but lets stay on the thread and see how we get to the RHS at Ryanair.

On one end poeple are fighting to keep some of there T&C's in place(look at the SAS thread) on the other end poeple will except anything that is offered to them as long as they can fly(and most of the time it's a 737 or a A320 that we are after 1 year or less out of flight school).There are a lot of posts on self funding so lets leave that out of the discussion.

You describe how you basically went on your knees asking for a job regardless of pay etc etc, please let me fly i will sign anything you give me.

What i don't understand is why somebody wants to get in to flying so bad that they are willing to except whatever is offered, there are so many posts on here about FR and it looks to me that there are still enough poeple who say;i don't care i will do it anyway.You say you are looking at the long term.What do you think the long term is going to bring? Do you believe it's going to stop here or do you agree that the actions you take now will effect you and others in "the long term" ? You would fly for half of what you make now wouldn't you,even if it meant moving in with friends or parents for the next couple of years so you can fly ?

Anybody that wants to get in to flying these days has so many more options to research anything they want to know about this industry,just switch on the computer go to pprune and so many other sources and ask your self is this something i should do ? It's just a job and hard work most of the time with up to 900 hours a year!The good old days are gone and will not come back, even though i support the SAS guys i think they are fighting a loosing battle, SAS office tigers and others take notice of what is going on at FR and other places and they want to bring things in "line".

So why not do something else ? If i had to make a career choice today i don't think it would be a in aviation, do you really want this RHS so bad? why not make money in a other fields get a 25% share in a light airplane and take the wife out on a nice day and fly VFR down the UK coast?

Is there no self respect among people that want to get in to aviation these days? What do you think is so glamorous about the job today that you would be willing to do anything to get in? i am not trying to be sarcastic about this, it's a serious question.

Why on earth do you want to spend 50K in training, another 30k for a TR ,work for "free" etc etc, this will haunt you later on and we will see you and others back here asking what went wrong after you got a 1000 hours on the 737 at FR and could not get a good pay offer somewhere else to fly there 737's, because that's the thought isn't it, fly for free and pay now,i will make up for it later. There is a good change you wont make up for it an so in a few years we are back on here and ask what the F.ck went wrong? The bad seeds you put in the ground now you will harvest further down in your career when you believe that the payback time has come.

RHS to FR or any similar route, i don't think it's worth it. we will all find out the hard way!

Good point you make regarding what do those seeking a first job thihk is so fantastic about flying commercially that they would seel their souls to get in.
Do not for a moment think that this job has anything in common with flying a light aircraft with friends on a day of you choice, that is a pleasure, this is a job. It has all the negative sides of most other jobs that you may have had, anti-social working hours, plenty of stress and fast diminishing terms and conditions. The Ryanairs of this world are well aware of the dreamers out there that think that operating a machine with jet engines is possibly the greatest thing they could ever do and therefore worth any sacrifice, either financial or in a personal sense. I know that many will take no notice until it is too late, its a shame that a work experience scheme is not available to try this industry for 6 months, that would change many peoples expectations believe me.

Carmoisine and Cipri - fair play to you for giving such a brutal insight !

Hazehoe + Stratman - couldn't have put it better myself really !

Just curious, whats the net take home pay like, per month, after you complete the initial 6 month training contract?

You do yourself a disservice to confuse negativity with pragmatic reality. Obviously your mind is made up, so you have no interest in hearing it like it is, and thus you will refuse to do so. However, decrying what those of us in FR know to be true will not make them untrue.
The one reality that you really should consider though is that, while you seem to think that the appalling deal that FR will give will be short-term, that will not be the case. At what point do you plan to stand up to them and say, enough of the crap, now treat me properly??

Hi
Just to get back to VC10's original question " how long to RHS after type rating",
hopefully it will be somewhat quicker now that CAE have been conducting the LST in addition to EMA since early January.
Willby

I am not sure about other contributors on this thread but after nearly two years seeking a flying job, when FR offered me the chance of a JOB flying one of there aircraft I thought long and hard about my options. With the base check yet to do with no money coming in I find it hard. If you ask me now would I recommend the scheme I would say NO. Despite working on the grd for a large national airline for ten years (Eager Beaver take note!) and having an airline background I really struggled to find employment. I too am thinking long term. I totally agree that in Ryanair eyes us cadet pilots are the Latvian cabin crew equivalent. Ask me the same question in two years time when the blue book has turned green and I am starting to earn a very good salary you will probably get another answer.

I should have thought that was obvious. Apply elsewhere, fly TP, instruct. Absolutely no need to pay anyone again to fly if you put some effort in.
There are a lot of other companies recruiting. Have you tried them all?
People weren't born with 2,000hrs before FR decided to start screwing the market you know.

An honest report to RHS at Ryanir please...
 

To VC10L1011, maverick777,

There is an other way or solution you didn't expect : paying for your type rating and getting ....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING :mad::{ I mean no type rating, no LPC, no more license after a partial pass LST - first attempt -. ARE YOU READY ???

I read threads posted by others and a lot of have their own story. Now I'm gonna tell you mine : as you is was ready to pay for my type rating and I paid for. As you they tell me the usual stuff about the job, the pay, the contract, ... seems nice after a very long unemployement period.

I started last January 2005 for a B737/800 type rating at EMA, finished ground training and 19 SIM sessions begining of June 2005 - not the 6 to 8 weeks expected first - and was FIRED after a 1st LST partial pass ...
The JAR/FCL - and FR training manual - expect that you have at least 2 attemps for passing the LST : NO WAY :}.
For FR :
- it cost time so it means a lot a money, unacceptable for them
- the training manual has to be interpreted "on a certain way..." by DOB,
For the IAA :
- "Accordingly, and based on the relevant requirements of JAR-FCL, you should consider addressing your LST complaint to the Ryanair TRTO HoT who should be able to assist you." OK, but HE fired me, :E

I had to pass by a sollicitor to get my notice - 3 months after - and there is nothing to do about my type rapting : for the solicitors it's too long, too risky and too expensive, for the IAA : chek with your company and for FR : s.... you !
I paid 15.000 £ for a type rating + accomodations + uniform + ID card + travels .... FOR NUTS.


So the turn is down, everyone is happy, job well done.
I have no more licence, no job, a lot of debts for a type rating I will never get with FR, a strong wife - who support me every day - and a kid with special needs. That's for the human factors, but who care about them ?

You care about your future, OK.
But sometimes it doesn't works as you expected ... So are you still ready for ?
GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU:ugh:

I am highly surprised you got fired! There were two guys on my course that got a partial pass but they were not fired. I don't mean to insult anybody by saying this, but sometimes there are more hidden agendas behind getting fired. I have to say from my experience and all of my colleagues that joined with me, none of us had a problem at any stage with FR. I agree with what many of you say on this thread, but I can only tell you what my personal experience was and I read in disbelief sometimes what Ryanair are "supposedly" doing!

Why do all the newbies earning the crap salary starting off with FR think it will get better for them down the line? Look at what busbar said, he can't believe the conditions for newbies compared to what it was like for him when he was starting off. Do you not think that by the time you get to busbar's stage that those conditions will have deteriorated as much?

to busbar,

I was highly surprised too ...

There is no hidden agendas in this case, but maybe hidden truths, facts who needs to be denied for and by young pilots.
I'm an experienced pilot, used to operate worlwide, but unfortunatly for me, who doesn't find a pilot job for the last two years.
I performed a good LST partial pass CONFIRMED by the Instructor who was on the left seat... but the HoT decided another way before leaving for his week-end !:mad:

That's my life today and I can't denied these facts. So you believe me or not, it's on your way... but VC10L1011 asked for "an honest report to RHS ar Ryanair please..." .

Please don´t assume things are necessarily that easy, After 4 years flying piston ME aircraft, taking considerable risks, and being away from home for months, logging 1500 hours, sending cv´s to every single company in the planet, either TP or JEt, Corporate, Cargo, Airline etc, Being fluent in Spanish, French and English. The only ones that called me up for an interview were Ryanair, and what was I suposed to do, let go the opportunity...don´t think so. I wasn´t born with 1500 hours, but its not like working hard to achieve them made a difference to my employment perspectives. I guess the market was already screwed when I arrived. The people seeking jobs are not the ones that need to fix the market, its the people inside (who have the strength) that need to protect it.

be rated and be online first!!!
ryanair has nothing to lose to get you out. they got your money and they have thousand of new applicants each year ready to take your seat.
do not believe because someone offers you a job, you will get the job. I know guys who have been kicked out after a few hours sim, or never start their training simply because they have decided to pay the company to work.

go for it, and good luck to you.

Go for it Maverick777
 

I have also been qualified with my fATPL for over 2 years now.

Have been to one dissapointing interview where I had to compete with a coulpe of hundred blokes for a couple of jobs. This has been my only sniff at a job.

2 years ago I would also not have considered paying for my type, but you have to be realistic, if I would have done the RYR SSTR a couple of years ago I would be in a very good position now.

The Ryanair scheme is not all bad, you dont have to pay for your base check or line training, and the possiblity of permanent employment are good if you perform. When it comes to SSTR's this is the one to do.

I have been fortunate enough to get an invitation at assesment in the near future and hope dearly that I succeed and can finally get my career started.

If I have a 6 or 8month gap between type rating and line training....so be it, there is no shortage of work in the UK, and I will use this time to save more funds to see me through the 'dry' year that follows.

All the best to you all.

Sky Goose

Hello Michael! ;)

Is it true that ryanair have agreed a 5on 4off roster pattern recently??

It's about respect and acknowlegement of the value of your employees. I have no problem with pilots in a probationary position being paid less than those with unrestricted line qualifications; they take supervision and training, which is expensive. No profession in the world pays its new hires the same as those who've been around for a while - but I can't think of any that pay nothing to their employees, for however short a period.

As for paying for uniforms, if you want me to wear your uniform you should pay for it. If you want me to pay for it, then allow me to get it at a tailor of my choice, with my own choice of lining and other details that enable me to express myself - even the RAF allowed that! The other items (pension etc) are negotiable in any line of work, but it's a sign of the imbalance between demand and supply of the kind of pilots Ryanair uses that these things are not part of the package.

Ryanair is free to offer whatever employment package it wishes, so long as it's within the law. If they get enough applicants, they're under no obligation to change that package and will, wherever they can, reduce the costs of employment by whatever means at their disposal. The money they save goes into the pockets of others in the organisation, make no mistake about that. The bottom line is profit, of course, but look at where the profit goes. If it's into equipment and improvements to customer service, all well and good. If the workforce gets to share in the profit, so much the better, as long as the pot is shared equitably. In too many companies it isn't, and senior management are rewarded way out of proportion either to their contribution or to the good of company morale.

You guys have a choice, though it might not look like it sometimes! Use it wisely.

Scroggs