What a lot of people forget is one basic fact. An airline is a business. It is there to make MONEY! And that is the bottom line. That's all it will ever be about. They are not flying clubs there to fulfill our dreams of flying, that's what the local flying school is for!

Now, I disagree with the new terms and conditions that I read about on this thread for the cadets, but some of the replies e.g. from scroggs. are very valid points. You will not earn £70k+ when starting out in any profession, especially when you have 250 hours and a F/ATPL in aviation. But the long term prospects are good. The money, lifestyle, roster stability, promotion prospects are very good in FR and I would encourage anybody to look at the long term picture with them.

This is aimed at A320rider:

I follow your posts on this thread and others and I notice you are very unhappy with paying out money to develop your career. Ok, you have a point in as much that Airline's should be paying for their Pilot's training and conversions. Granted, however, the industry is not the same as it used to be, and the more you jump up and down about how unfair the whole thing is, it will not make a blind bit of difference! Because if you won't take the job with FR and pay for the TR, the next man/woman in the que will, so in effect all you are doing is serving yourself an injustice. To change things like paying for TR's, it has to be a massive stand of lots of people against companies, not individuals in the corner shouting how unfair the whole thing is. And even then, it will still be difficult.

I wish you guys all the best with it! (Hope that's not upset too many folks :ok: )

I just wrote about people who don't respect the rules ..., the JAR/OPS regulations and take your money to throw you out as rubbish !! At the time you PAY for a type rating you have to get it and not TO BE FIRED AFTER THE 1ST ATTEMPT OF LST:mad:. So don't wrote about something you don't care.

ps : what's about limo and hotel ? who asked for this ?

Its not a matter of work shortage, you tell me who is going to employ you on a weekly basis, I remind you that during the nearly 7 months I have been waiting for the line training, I had to keep checking my roster every single Friday, because no one gave me a rough idea of my start date. that´s what makes it so painful! If someone had told me beforehand that it would take me so long I wouldn´t have left my previous employment.

Cipri
 

I appreciate you frustrations, but would it not be possible to negotiate with your previous employer to return on a contract basis.
If bad came to worse you could flip burgers or pull pints.....
All im saying is that being in a bit of a sticky situation for a few months is worth it if you will soon be staring on your career, and it not instructing or doing air taxi work....it'll be flying a brand new 737-800...and be earning good money doing it in a few years. To me half a year in limbo for this is a small price.
BTW... your too young to be worring about an income....buy and old van and a surfboard and hang around Cornwall till you get the call:ok:

Im just wondering, Does nobody think Ryan air will change their view to pilots considering they now need pilots at all of their 15 Bases ? Would that idiot O'Leary seriously rather have his new 737's sat on the ground as he cant get pilots than perhaps help the new low-hours pilot just a little bit? :uhoh:

Hi Sky goose,

The thing is that I quit a flying job after 4 years, and trust me there are not much employers who you can negotiate with for a week to week contract, , so its not like I am just starting, and I really wish I could save enough money by pulling pints as you said, but I don´t think so. I also wish I didn´t have to worry about money a go surfing, but the loan goes in every month and if you add up other expenses, I need at least 1500 to get through. Although you are right about being in Limbo, its better than nothing, I just hope I end up in heaven rather than in hell.

Regards

Hey Cipri,

There is bound to be some positive movement on your side shortly, as I got a call from my MCC instructor that FR desperatly needed blokes to fill a March 7th slot for assesment.

I dont quite understand why they need people to fill the slots when they have all you blokes in the wings. Mabye gearing up for summer ?

Cant imagine youll be in limbo land for too much longer...? or am I missing something?

Good luck dude...

Goose

Or you could take my right seat in FR and ill bugger off to the surf! after six months and 600hrs I need a break!:}

Do something else.
 

To all those who have been complaining about having a RHS to plank their ass in, please shut up. There are still a lot of low houred guys out there who would be quite willing to swap places with all of you. Yes you had to pay for your own TR, so what, the majority of us pay for our basic training also and earn no money for well over a year. Don't try and come back to me with "there were no passengers during your basic training". I suggest if you really want to stick it to the airlines talk young people out of coughing up 80k for the basic training.

There is no doubt that the industry is on an upward trend at the moment and if you don't like FR then quit!! With all due respect to FR they are the only airline in Europe that have been hiring en masse since the industry took a dive so I think they deserve a little credit for that. Yes you get the short end of the stick for a while but after that you'll be on good money and can build enough hours to go somewhere else if you wish.

I am still looking for my first RHS and would happily swap places with anyone in FR who hates where they are.

I'm getting really pi**ed off with these types of threads, if you don't want to work for FR don't f**king apply, leave it to those who want to fill the RHS.

Work for free and sod the rest of you? Nice attitude! I'm sure you'd like my job, too - and would be prepared to do it for a great deal less than I get paid, if you could. Fortunately, they don't give jobs like mine to people who have no idea of their value in this business - yet. I hope they never do.

Scroggs

Dear Scroggs,

I appreciate you have vastly more expirence than most and want to keep the T&C for the industry at a certain level. I just wonder if you know what it is like to hope for anything resembeling a flying job for almost 30 months after your qualification.
So what do you suggest we do, boycott Ryanair?....yeah right..then the next bloke in line gets the job and 2 years down the line he has 1500 hours 737, and I have 245 piston. And FR still have a list of 5000 applicants, allot of good that did !

I have worked very hard to secure the funds for a TR and dont really appriciate being told I'm destroying the T&C's of the industry, as alennox said, if you dont like the way FR do things, apply elsewhere.

ps We do appreciate the value of our work.....and we would dearly like the chance to get a job, some experience and then we will be rewarded for it.
Dont forget, FR do pay their experienced pilots above industry standards !

I await the onslaught ! Be gentle mr scroggs.:ok:

My Value €€€
 

Thanks for the support Sky Goose. As for Scroggs, you are obviously an experienced pilot with lots of hours under your belt, well done to you. I'm still in the low hour bracket like Sky Goose and if me getting my hours up means a little pain initially then so be it.

As Sky Goose points out FR do pay above the industry standard when you have hours under your belt.

I do value myself highly, that’s why I am willing to suffer a little to gain a hell of a lot. Please put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself what would you do.

It's not an attempt to undercut anyone. Me working for little or no money initially will have no impact on FO's with 500hrs or Capt's with 2000hrs in FR at all. Your argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny. At the end of the day in trying to secure my first RHS I am thinking about myself and no one else as are all in the same boat as myself.

May I reiterate: if you don't want to work for FR "DON'T APPLY"

Good luck to you Sky Goose in securing a RHS and best of luck for the future Scroggs.

Maybe I should shed some light on my FR experience I was assesed in Feb 05 (about a year after finishing training) offered a place on a TR course at SAS in April base checked in June and started line training in late July and released on the line in September. For me the whole process worked fine. I really love the job and have found working for the company fine. (maybe because I have nothing to compare it to). My roster has been a rock solid 5-3 since starting on the line. The money is good once off the half sector pay crap and the majority of the skippers I fly with out of STN feel the same. We all winge and moan a little but as far as I can remember I have done that in every company I have ever worked in. I was low hours (300) modular.

Please read your post and see who is the one complaining, the only difference is that the ones higher up the ladder complain about different things than you, since you have a different point of view. I am sure there are plenty of people who couldn´t spend those 80K in the initial training, like you said, and wish they were on your position to at least be elegible for a pilot job, and that doesn´t take away your right to complain... And just let you know, that if I complain its because I can, since a while ago I got called for an interview (based on my cv, since no one helped), passed the assement, made a big economic effort, and got my TR. And If you wish to swap places, note there is a process to get where I am now, it wasn´t like I woke up one morning and won the national lottery. By the way if you don´t like to read these posts, its easy, just don´t!

Sky Goose;

In fact since I finished my TR they have been running around 2 courses per month, which means there is a big and I mean really big pile of pilots waiting behind... Probably after April when the Line trainers have hours to spend, we´ll begin rolling, until then I guess we´ll have to sit back and relax.

Totally agree, thats how it should have been, and its the reason why I am complaining about the 6 1/2 monhs (and incresing) that I have already been waiting to get the linetraining done. Imagine, loopstand1, I did my assement on May 05, and no one has bother to answer my enquiries, about my present situation. any way, well done, and hope to be as happy as you are soon

FR RHS.
 

Cipri it's great to hear the other side of the story form someone. I fully appreciate that people may have a bad experience working for a large organisation, not necessarily an airline I might add.

I am not trying to annoy anyone with my posts and if I offended anyone I apologise unreservedly.

Thanks for the posts in support of my point and good luck to you all.

The naivety... When you have 500hrs or 2000hrs or whatever and some 200hr wonder is willing to do the same job you're competing for for half the money, come back then and tell us how you feel.

Scroggs - well said :ok:

Just curious about the people moaning about self-funded ratings.

I would argue that ANYONE who funds his/her initial training CPL/ME/IR is creating an unfair and degraded situation for the good folks who otherwise might've had full airline sponsorships available to them.

That's the argument right, that SSTRs undermine the people who went and became pilots and now watch newbies take "their" jobs through money?

Well... If nobody funded any training at all themselves what do you think airlines would be forced to do? Forgetting military pilots who by now get stuck with 10 year contracts when they start, the airlines would have to offer complete sponsorships to aspiring pilots. Naturally the selection process would be stern and fewer would get in but airlines would get theirs in the end.

So by funding your own training, effectively you're removing the sponsorships out there forcing the people who would've been good enough for sponsorships to also fund their own training. The reason we don't hear people screaming bloody murder about this is that a. nobody knows if they would've been selected for such a sponsorship and b. it's a much smaller group of people. The fact still remains though, that these people get shafted because YOU (and I) pay for training.

Which ultimately begs the question, who deserves to be a pilot?

Prove it to me.
 

CamelhAir give me an example of an FO or Capt in FR competing with a low houred pilot for the same job. My post specifically referred to FR where FO's and Capt's with hours under their belts get well paid.

NG-dude you have a very valid point, if people stopped self funding their initial training the airlines would have to offer full or at least part sponsorship to people, problem solved.

As for being naive, well, if you mean fully understanding the market at the moment then I am very naive!!!

Guys looking to get out of FR and into the likes of the big charters, BA etc.
Experienced FO's in other companies who might like to move to FR or Easy etc.
I could go on with examples all day, but can't really be bothered.
Don't you get it, other companies only have to offer a package slightly better than FR, to get people. This is where the rot. You can go on all day about moving apres Fr to better jobs, but your very actions are reducing the likelihood of those better jobs actually being much better. Wake up.

So CamelhAir, what would you like us low houred pilot's do ?
Perhaps we should hang around in the 'wings' for a few more years...perhaps shell out £6k for a FI rating so we can get a job earning £12k a year. Or mabey fly in africa and leave the family at home, because of the nature of contract work in africa. (ive been there looking and it aint to easy to get a job either).
All this to 'protect' the T&C of pilots already in the airlines, what other industry has this bizzare situation ?
I think perhaps you need to do some waking up yourself.:confused:
All the items you mention above seem to be the natural progression of your average pilot....what makes it so wrong ? Is the ambitious pilot or wannabe a danger to the T&C of the established pilot ?
mmmmm.....sorry I just dont get it :confused:

Career Progression.
 

CamelhAir, pilots with experience were leaving the likes of FR and Easy to go to the larger carriers like BA & Virgin long before low houred pilots were paying for type ratings.

Anyway the larger more established carriers didn't give you a free TR either, they recouped a portion of the training costs through a bonding arrangement. FR doesn’t have a bond you so you are free to find another flying job whenever you like and with a 737NG TR on your licence that wouldn’t be too hard.

Don't you get it at all? Like Sky Goose I am frustrated with waiting around for a RHS and if FR offered my a position on one of their TR courses I would jump at it and give absolutely no thought to the T&C's of anyone else.

I personally know a number of ex-FR pilots who paid for TR back in 2002 who have moved on to airlines in the Middle East and Asia, the one common denominator with all of them is how glad they were to have gotten a RHS from FR initially.

Every industry is the same whether your an engineer, doctor, lawyer, barrister etc etc. All these people pay for the own training i.e. University Degree Courses. They all start off on a salary that is low in comparison to colleagues with more experience yet that hasn't had an adverse impact on future earnings for any of them, nor will low houred pilots paying for their 1st TR.

It's the way of the world, unfortunately aviation is more costly but if you don't like it do something else.

And whats your point? this is the natural progression of experience..so what?
Depends who you work for, yes you get bonded (by definition a bond comes into force if you leave before a set period of service) this is DIFFERENT than a pay as you earn agreement, which so many on here confuse with a bond, ala Easy TRSS, CTC etc...so get the facts straight:hmm:
Pathetic, like a rat trying to crawl out of a bucket of ****e:mad:
Wrong yet again, the difference here is that once you are qualified initially i.e. fresh out of varsity you can then commence your training on the job, ala lawyers (public defenders) doctors (junior registrars) accountants (junior CA's) etc etc..so there is a MASSIVE difference here.
The key thing in all of this is that you..and your idiotic work for nothing mates are destroying the T & C's for those of us already in the industry. You dont work here, I do, go away and grow up, better yet if you want to work for little or no pay..head off to China or India where your remuneration will fit in better with what you feel is adequate.

Why don't you pay to fly people try and think about it like this.

It's your own future terms and conditions you are eroding just as much as anyone else's. Maybe if you guys did go out and do the hard yards, such as a couple of years instructing/taxi flights or whatever, when a job on a nice shiny jet comes around you might find the type rating is paid for and better still you get paid a proper wage from day one.

Everyone would then be better off including yourselves.:ok:

Sir 757manipulator
 

How can we be so thoughtless……
Let me inform the 6000 hopeful applicants that it’s a bad idea to join the FR SSTR scheme.
Id feel terrible if it affected your lifestyle in any way.
Mate…..its happening and like it or not…...people are going to do it…. I don’t agree with it either….but I aint getting no younger in a few years I’ll be in my mid thirties and becoming more unemployable by the day.
Instead of bashing wannabes (rather abusively) maybe you could give some realistic advice on getting on the job ladder.

Its not often that i feel its necessary to make a post, only a few in so many years. I cannot understand the impatience of wannabees coming out of these schools with 200 hours feeling that they have the god given right to jump into the RHS of a jet.

Your impatience is changing the terms and conditions of our industry and until you fly for an airline you will never appreciate this. It took me 6 years to get my first airline job and that was on a TP, before that I instructed, flew air taxis for next to nothing to increase my employability. It wasn't for 7 years that i got offered to fly in the RHS of a jet for a well established charter airline. I was offered a job, the TR was paid for, yes I was bonded for 2 years but that is totally acceptable. I am paid a good salary as a SFO and I believe that there are not enough people coming through the system with similar backgrounds. WHY IS THIS? As alot of you guys are prepared to solicit yourselves in the desperation of flying a jet.

If you love flying, go and instruct for a few years, fly air taxis and then apply to the Airlines. You may now be offered a job with better terms and conditions!

I do feel strongly about this, it is not that I feel that I have come from the best background and it makes a better calibre of pilot. I have struggled through very hard times (Septmeber 11) BUT I have never paid for a Type Rating and will never do so. You guys are ruining our industry and make no mistake about that!

Hi,
I think it's unfair to blame newly qualified pilots for the deterioration in the T&C's of of pilots in the low cost airlines.
Surely it is the publics' insatiable appetite for low cost travel which is the main reason. Market forces will always prevail in any industry. After studying hard for years to realise their dream to fly, it is only to be expected that newbies will do whatever it takes to make the dream a reality.

757manip - go do your homework again. My wife is a solicitor and we had to pay postgrad lawschool fees ourselves, and then they work for 2 years on very lowpay. (called articles on about 10-12 grand a year). Barristers pay for law school and work UNPAID for 2 years. These days they have to pay the undergrad costs aswell.
Stop bloody whinging, or make sure that your arguments actually hold water.
Every industry that has good pay has high entry costs. Business school 101. A business / job with high pay has a high bar to entry.
I don't really think it matters how the ratings are paid for. either you pay up front, like ryanair, or the good old sponsership ,that you all seem to think is a great panacea, will come back and the 'free' training gets taken back as lower salarys for 10 years. I bet 10 years down the road your net position is exactly the same.

757manip, captain douglas, 152 wiseguy well said gentlemen. Nail on the head stuff.

The argument that docs/lawyers etc get paid less at the beginning is horse$hit. They do because they are less use to anyone with little experience. On the other hand, an FO fulfils the same task, whether with 200 hours or 2000. Obviously the experienced guy is a whole lot more use to the skipper, but in terms of fulfilling the legal requirement to have an FO, either will suffice.
You people really are stupid if you consider FR's slave scheme even remotely similar to the traditional bonding method.
Finally, glennox, , I would advise you to never express such a sentiment to anyone you ever fly with. Pathetic. Beyond belief. I sincerely hope you are not indicative of the calibre of the next lot of SS recruits. :yuk: :mad:

Camelhair, 757manip, captain douglas, 152 wiseguy and all the foul mouthed guys who keep whinging about these young guys ruining your T&C's, just one question: What have YOU done to keep the T&C's the way they where 15 years ago... Camelhair you are so pathetic, you have not even been able to forbid your boss to supress drinking water to the flight deck:mad:

Show us how good you are, and after you have prouved more than a hollow fart you'll be able to speak up !!!

Actually, I dont know what Law School your wife went to (nor I guess does it matter) but my other half who is also a Barrister, wasnt asked to contribute to any post-grad costs, infact she was able, through her own resourcefulness to secure a position alongside a well respected and reputable firm.
So yes my arguement does hold water..(her classmates have had similar experiences)
SIMPLE..I havent paid for a type-rating (I was an FI, flown turbo-props, and Biz-Jets) Ive turned down positions where I was asked to, oh yeah and Im a member of BALPA...just ask the guys at easyjet as to how things can change with a bit of collective effort
:)

Unfortunately FR is full of self-sponsored individuals who are not interested in collective effort. By the time they've seen the light the damage is done.
Easy drivers have the right idea and I applaud wholeheartedly their efforts.

Why anybody believes if you offer somebody to pay for your TR and work for free that they will give you free drinks and or food is really beyond me.Why do i believe that one is a result of the other.This is the joke of the day:D

it seems to me that a good bunch of FR newbies join with 250-ish hours.FR is taking advantage of your experience level,and ask you what is to me,absolutely disgraceful....But it seems that with 250tt and be in the RHS of a 73 is unheard of in many countries.Don'ttry to go faster than the music,GA,Turboprop,small-medium jet etc...Don't get fooled by what is bright...just my 2 cents

offensive.
 

757manipulator referring to people who are willing to join FR's SSTR scheme as is highly offensive. I thought this forum was about information and different points of view. If you cannot make your point without resorting to insults like that then don't post replies.

I'm curious as to your status, did you pay for your initial training?
Did you pay for your FI course?

Captain Douglas IT IS NOT YOUR INDUSTRY. It is controlled by consumer choice and market forces. Did you pay for your initial training?

I'm also curious as to what both of you have done to maintain your T&C's. Don't blame newly qualified pilots for mistakes you've made in the past.

Nice one Glennox, take me out of context.................:hmm:
If you read what was highlighted, my tirade was directed towards your attitude of someone saying that you would pay for a TR and then sod the T & C's of those around you. In that sense you forfeit the right to preach to me about the rights and wrongs of what Ive said.

I wonder how you'd feel if you were next in line..and told you now had to work for free??:hmm:

I agree with Scroggs.

We have all been there, 200 hours 25 on a multi engine aircraft, and not a hope of a job. None of us fell into our current positions we all worked hard and had a bit of luck on our side, and so will you. We have all had to make sacrifices to pursue our dream, and so will you, but flying for nothing is not one of them.

Found out yesterday that in November and December, Ryannair had a net loss of pilots for the first time. Tend to think that with a new aircraft arriving weekly, Ryannair need to do something.

BTW, found this out while down at the CAA having a jet rating added to my license that I didn't have to pay for, after instructing for a couple of years to get the hours and experience up...