answer the question.
 

757manipulator you didn't answer my questions.

Did you pay for your initial training and your FI course?

Taken out of context or not what you wrote was offensive!!

Glennox,

You tell poeple to " shut up " ,you are getting "p.ssed of" with these posts and advice others not to " F.cking apply " and now you are offended ?

I suggest you tone it down a little:mad:

Time for some home truths
 

This is for all those 200 hour guys who think that they deserve a seat in jet:
The reason most airlines wont touch you with a barge pole is because you are a huge financial risk to them and if you do get through Sim and line training, you are bloody dangerous until you have about 12 months on the aircraft.
As an airline we take all our low houred guys form CTC, They go through a comprehensive set of selection tests and should be able to complete the Sim training with out much trouble. Wrong the dropout rate is huge given where they come from. The reason FR make you pay is because if you drop out, which about 50% will, they wont have paid for any of your training. And if you get to line training, about another 25% will drop out, again their financial position is secure.
They are not doing it out of the kindness of their harts, they are doing it to protect their position and if they can make some money out of you along the way, all the better.
As for low hour guys in the RHS of a jet, they are bloody dangerous! I know I have been there and got the T-shirt. They are too far behind the aircraft in normal opps, that if an emergency did happen they would be worse than useless! And as for manual flying, forget it!
Take some time to get to know aviation, instructing and air taxi are very rewarding and the experience gained will hold you in good stead for when the **** really hits the fan. The CLP/IR is a license to LEARN you will never have this period in your aviation career again I suggest you use it wisely. I went into the RHS with 200 hours and it was VERY hard work, now with 3500 hours I can see just how bad a pilot I was, and also on what I missed. While the RHS of a jet is the end goal, there are so many other parts to aviation that it would be a waste to spend your formative years trolling to Dalaman and back at 3AM.

apology.
 

hazehoe if you go back through what I've posted on this topic you'll find I did apologise for annoying anyone or causing offence, read the posts before you comment.

Look at post #66 if you don't believe me, here is the quote if you can't be bothered:

My, this is getting a little heated, isn't it?

To those of you shelling out for TRs and preparing to work for little or nothing, remember that what you get paid reflects what you think you are worth. The employer will pay no more than he can get away with. If you think you are worth nothing, then you will accept nothing and the employer will laugh his way to the bank.

A couple of years down the line, you will expect to get paid what you saw SFOs getting paid at your airline when you joined. After all, this is why you joined, right? But the employer now has you by the short and curlies. You are committed; you have loans to repay and you may be bonded as well. When the employer announces that, from 2008, FO's pay is going to be reduced by 20% for all those who joined in 2006 and later, where's your leverage? You just have to bite the bullet and accept it - you can't leave, you're too deeply in it to get out. You can't strike; your employer would sack you (you never joined the union...) and you'd be back at square one - and there are thousands of other wannabes crawling over each other to get your job. A few years further down the line, your employer offers you a command - but you've got to pay for the conversion training, you will have to pay any moving expenses, and the pay now offered is 20% below that of the guys a few years ahead of you. 'Sod that' you think, 'Time to go to Virgin or BA and get out of this particular pig sty'. You apply - and find that the terms you are offered are a great deal different - and a lot worse - from those offered to those who went before you. Why is that? Because the employers already know what you think you are worth - you've already proved it.

If you think this is an unlikely scenario, you're wrong. It's happened exactly like that in many airlines, here and abroad, over and over again. It's sometimes known as a 'B' scale, or a job realignment or whatever, but it comes as a result of large numbers of people accepting lower than previous remuneration for the initial jobs on the scale at times when jobs are scarce and applicants many. As a recent example, look at BA's new pilot contract with its pathetic pension arrangements. Market economics? Yes, but the market is subject to pressures from both employers and employees. You are not helpless victims of the market; your actions influence it.

Of course, if you had trodden the less expensive path of FI, TPs and so on, you'd be a few years older, a lot wiser, and a lot less in debt when you came to look for a jet job - and therefore the airline wouldn't have such a hold over you and you could apply more discretion in your choice of employer. But you'd have to ditch the 'I want it all and I want it now' attitude, and I doubt that many of you would do so until it's too late.

Now, I don't put all the blame on those at the bottom of the pile, though I do ask you to think seriously about the consequences of your actions. they are unlikely to affect me, but they will affect you and your peers. How can we retrieve the situation? Do what Ryanair and others have not done - get the existing pilots to work together in protecting the terms and conditions of all pilots (including new-joiners) in their company. That can only be achieved by strong, united and determined union representation. It's worked in Virgin. It's working now in easyJet. It's failing (but maybe retrievable) in BA. It could work in Ryanair, but it's not. Remember that once you get in.

Scroggs

I presume then Jonty that with all these ‘bloody dangerous’ low hours FOs on jets that accidents will be happening all the time, Ryanair planes will be falling out the sky….. of course not. And as for your suggestion that 50% will fail the type rating and 25% fail the line check well I find these figures as reliable as the Governments illegal immigration figures!! I would be surprised if the failure rate is higher than 10%.

‘Take some time to get to know aviation, instructing and air taxi are very rewarding and the experience’

Well for a start as a low hours pilot air taxi is out of the question as single pilots ops isn’t a possibility and of course me being ‘bloody dangerous’ it d be certain death!!!
As for instructing unless you have an endless supply of cash it simply isn’t an option to fork out another £5-6000 to be employed in a job that will pay around £10,000 a year tops added to the fact another 500 hours in a 152 has debatable long term career benefits.

Gaining experience on a turboprop I agree would be ideal, but these seem even rarer than jet jobs!

Although the Ryanair option is far from perfect it still offers an excellent opportunity as we can see from the demand which also means they can still pick and choose those who show the best skills in the sim check.

That’s my pennies worth

I've applied to Cityjet, "sorry we can't take your application further at this time", Loganair they don't care, no reply at all. BA Cityexpress, same things "sorry blah blah..."
Then I hear on pprune that some 300 hr TT guy gets interviewed with BA for example. I have almost 1500 TT of which over 800 is twin. What did I do exactly, spell first officer incorrectly on the application? Beg your pardon for not being brittish, you better believe I can outperform the low hour guy on the job. Truth be told, a company who'd go for a 300 guy over a 1500 guy over spelling errors to me is nuts.
So in my opinion, these companies have clearly told me what THEY think my worth is, and it's not much apparently.
Then what? Get JAA instructor ratings until I have 3000 TT instead? By then they're going to ask what's wrong with me for not getting a job yet = no interview. Plus the fact that 1500 Vs 3000 should make no difference, if you can't perform at 1500 then you probably can't perform at all.
So you tell me what next? I don't consider myself a low hour guy. Aer Arann require you to fund your rating I believe and I don't see this as being preferable to something like the Ryanair deal.

Very succinctly put Scroggs, that's perhaps the best summing up of the situation I have seen/heard to date.

Gnirren - I'm sorry to hear about your lack of employment, its people like yourself who are getting screwed over by those who pay for their ratings. I wish you good luck.

Thebeast - perhaps you should reserve your judgement on Jonty's comments until you have enough experience to make such a judgement. I agree with what he says - looking back on myself as a new low-time (but not paying for a rating) FO, I knew f**k-all and would have been a serious liability had anything gone badly wrong.

indeed the one´s outside have no influence whatsoever in the company hiring policies, there is far to much unemployment to go aroung rejecting the slight job offers around. As I have said before, its the people inside that have the power to change, although its not alway true. This has been done in two Spanish carriers, one of them Air Europa, where with the help of the union, has stablished a well defined set of requirements, and the will to pay for the new hired pilots type rating. In the other hand, Iberia pilots and their union, have been fighting now for years in order to keep their old pilot´s agreement, which has meant that a bunch of pilot´s who where already trained and had their TR paid for by Iberia (I think more than 3 years ago) have not yet been called up to start flying, as a pressure measure by the management. the bad part is that they had signed a contract which bonded them for loads of money so they can´t realy do much about it.
summing up, waht can we do? the one´s outside have no say. And the one´s Inside don´t have an easy way and or are too busy looking after their own problems.
Life is hard, and everything gets harder. Real state has also risen to prices out of reach for most young people, while real state owners grow wealthier and wealthier! housing is twice or Thrice as expensive now, and that is even more unfair than paying for a T/R. Who is to blame? the young people that pay whatever they are asked for? maybe yes, but what is one supposed to do, find a nice bridge and live under it?

not easy problems, wiht no easy solutions. Its easy to criticise, but alway try to get into the other people´s shoes!

Regards

All the talk about 200HR guys...
 

I am a 1000TT hour pilot, most is instructing, and I get the same or no replies from the likes of CityJet, Loganair etc... NO.

I have decided to go for FR even though I cant afford, going to the bank again...

What is the big difference between Ryanair and CTC(ex. EasyJet), you pay CTC and then you bond yourself for 20.000£, no pay for six month (think you might get an allowance with some airlines) and once you start getting payed you get more or less the same pay as in Ryanair. Why the huge dismay towards Ryanair and not CTC?

You need to take a good look at easyJet's Cadet and TRSS schemes; they are a world apart from Ryanair's system.

Scroggs

Enlighten me!

I do not know anything about easyJet's Cadet scheme, I chose to use EasyJet as an example of an airline recruiting from CTC, could just as well have been another one. And also let me make it clear that I do not see anything wrong with them, but I dont see the fundamental difference other than the selection process. At the end of the day the applicant is paying a lot of money to get the job, if successful.

I have a job; I'm not here to sell anyone's schemes. If you are a wannabe and are researching the market, you will be well advised to carefully look at all the schemes on offer. Some are considerably better thought out than others, and do not require any period with neither salary, allowances or living expenses. You may also find that, at the cost of a slightly reduced salary, your loan is repaid to you by some - and not by others.

Research is a wonderful tool.

Scroggs

Yes paid for my CPL(IR) in a foreign land, got my FI rating paid for by the school I trained at (in return for 12 months instructing)..I was then offered a F/O position on a turbo-prop, did that for 18 months, then got a job on a Lear 60 (again bonded for 12 months), joined a charter airline on the A320..upgraded to the 757/767 2 years ago. In that time Ive also worked a second and even a third job to pay the bills:hmm: .Therefore I am utterly uimpressed when foolish individuals think that a mountain of debt, 200hrs, and an attitude of "I'll do the job for next to nothing, and sod anyone elses' T & C's":yuk:
If my comments offend you Glennox I make no apology, I am verbalising in cleaner language than the vast majority of working crews would think in regards to the type of comments you have made previously.
Scroggs has summed it up rather accurately, ultimately you are cutting your own throats, your blind faith in the dreams you have been sold getting into this profession are no ones fault but your own "caveat emptor"
:)

Its an interesting argument saying that you get paid what you are worth as a new SO/FO.
That is saying that all your previous training is immaterial, and therefore a waste of money, if so thats not a fault of yours but the system!

Lets see I pay £50,000 for my training, £20,000 for my TR, but after that I'm only worth £171 per week!!!

Also with you that aircraft cannot legally take off, therefore how much would it cost Ryanair to ground one of its flights. Multiply that by the number of flights you do a year and you suddenly become invaluable to the airline!

There is a Dispatches Program on Monday night on the horror stories at Ryanair, lets hope that they incude the pilots and the rest of the world gets to see this expoitation.

The joke is not Ryanair, but on the authorities for allowing people to exploited in such a manner!

Stjuk, i don't consider you a wannabe,you are out in the system.Students fly solo under your responsebility etc. I came up the "ladder" this way and don't regret it. You have to hang in there and make contacts(yes i know it's difficult),find a job on a small twin and slowly climb "up".

If more poeple would go this "hard" route we would not be in the situation we are in right now.
Flight International is posting for FI positions in Croatia,with active intergration to the airlines after 600 hours and 2 years(maybe LH ,i don't know) to name a example. I reached the same point after 1500 hours of instructing and wonderd where all this was supposed to lead.In the end it worked out,got multi time through instructing, freight and than regional.It's a lot better to fly for a regional with good T&C's and become a TRI/TRE than to put up with the disrespectful(in lack of better words) treatment you get in places like FR. Don't believe for a second that the bad deal you get now will change in 2 years,i believe it has been explained by me and a lot of others where all this is going.My advise is to stick with it , you already took a big hurdle building those first 1000 hours! I don't believe the wannabe statement from Sroggs was for you but more in a general sense.You will find ,if you do your research , that he is trying to keep this whole debate balanced and comes on here to rebuke me and others if we get a little bit to carried away with this issue(FR, self funding etc), so " arrogance " might be a little misplaced.This arrogant B.sterd is probaly over the Atlantic with the blond girls in the back, it's not a fair world is it.

Keep up the hard work,don't fall in the trap of the "shortcut" you might regret it.

Quote:

"Keep up the hard work,don't fall in the trap of the "shortcut" you might regret it."

What do you mean regret it? Hours on a 737 NG is not something you regret! They are valuable to progress your career. If you are talking about getting into large debt for it, then yes a valid point but if you are going to go down this road, you have to be fully aware of the consequences and make sure you are going to keep up the repayments etc... Don't be stupid enough to borrow money you can't pay back!

And before you all launch back at me, yes I know if SSTR schemes were not around nobody would be in this boat in the first place! Granted.

By the way, it's all very well slagging off the FR scheme, but what about the Astraeus scheme? I am not saying anything against it because I don't know enough to comment, but several of my colleagues had a very bad experience with them. Apparently you even pay for your line training, come on that is a worse deal! Yet nobody says a thing about this? Just an observation! :hmm:

Nobody has discussed Astraeus, due to fact this thread subject is about Ryanair. Yes there are probably very valid points to be made, however the thread creep on here relates to comments made, rather than companies offering this kind of service.

sorry 757manipulator, you are indeed correct again! :rolleyes:

Busbar

I thought it was obvious,wait until you see what is on offer in a few years.Is it really so hard to understand that FR and others will shaft you again in the future,they already know you are willing to put up with anything they offer.It has nothing to do with the quality of hours on the 737 , it has been discussed in great lenght that your actions now will affect you and others later on,something i strongly believe.

Progress your career at what cost is the question ? i don't care where the money is coming from,the T&C's now and in the future is the issue here,not just the short term solution of buying a TR with or without a job!

before everyone gets too carried away with the whole "We hate Ryanair" deal, why don't you just reflect on the fact that they will carry more passengers than BA next year, they carried only a couple of percent less than BA this year, they have probably the most modern fleet of any airline, they are the most profitable of all airlines, they are currently listed with a market cap of 6 billion dollars which is more than BA and would make them a firm FTSE 100 company if they were listed one the LSE and not dublin, and are recruiting more low hours pilots than anyone else in the immediate future.
You may love them, you may hate them but I think we can safely assume that they are here to stay, and have changed the industry for good. We can either accept the new order or step aside and let others join the game. Just ask the good people of Rover, Marconi, Delphi corp and many many other huge companies what happens when you don't move with the times.

From a personal point of view if I were to have 20 job offers on my desk, then this is an argument worth having, however If I only had Ryanair on my desk, then this whole point is moot isn't it.
Thinking that the world will change if only everyone stopped paying for type ratings is abit like saying "if we all stopped paying our council tax, then perhaps it wouldn't go up by 20% a year". Its a perfectly accuracte point, but it ain't going to happen people.

But thats not the point of this thread, personally my biggest concern with Ryanair is their attitude towards their staff..and the exploitative practises that they employ. As a customer they are generally pretty good, although I still fly BA if I go anywhere as I live near LGW/LHR and they are just as cost effective :ok:

The ultimate irony!!!!!!!!
 

"

757manipulator, if you don't want to apologise fine and congrats on your flying success, i do sincerely mean that, but you paid for your initial training and lived on no salary for about 15months or so!!!! isn't it ironic for you to have a go at people willing to pay for there own type rating with FR or anyone else for that matter. :hmm:

Jonty you posted the following a couple of days ago

Are you suggesting that every BA, Aer Lingus, Air France and every other airline that recruited cadet pilots over the years is bloody dangerous, way behind the aircraft etc etc... Thats just rubbish. Airlines that sponsor trainee pilots have an extensive recruitment policy and weed out anyone who isn't up to flying for them. :hmm:

WRONG.....Glennox, go back and read what I typed, and dont put your own spin on what Ive said:hmm:
I said I worked a second and third job to pay the bills....I didnt say I worked these jobs because I wasnt being paid a fare rate for my endeavours:hmm:
The FACT is I worked these other jobs as my first positions in aviation were not full time, they were however paid at a fair level when I did work. Glennox if you looked beyond the end of your own nose you would have understood that.
As for paying for my CPL/IR, I look on this as my license to learn, a type rating however is another matter entirely, as it allows one to operate revenue generating flights, therefore you are entitled to be paid for this.
Finally, yes correct no apology, your comments were ignorant, irresponsible, and in my opinion truely awful.

If Ryanair were the only offer on the table. I would not take it, unless I had £30,000 in the bank that could not be spent elsewhere!
I think its very easy to follow your dream and let common sense fly out the window. People are exploting you for your dream!
Personally I would not want to get myself into that sort of debt, i fly because i love it and it improves my quality of life. But what sort of quality of life will have have when I cannot afford to feed myself, put a roof over my head or petrol in my car.

I am a ryanair pilot, and I suggest you to stay away from them.
I had to wait 12 months before to touch an airplane, they took all my money.I have been threated by their manager tha if I leave they would sue me,...
now I am flying, I wake up at 4 am everyday, we work 13-15h non stop, 7-8 hours fly a day, week end included, no holyday.

It s creazy, we are very tired, and we have to go back flying.
I pay for my B&B, uniform, food, for everything. after 6 months, they didnt pay me yet...

they treat us like ****, even less than a piece of ****, we have to pay even our own pencil, their stupid dispatch room has no office ustencil....

this company is an insult!should I say more?

I agree with both sides of this discussion, but my only comment is: THIS IS A HIGHLY ENTERTAINING THREAD, seeing all these people getting worked up about NOTHING, and people commenting about things they know F#¤%CK all about!!!! Sorry my FRENCH, but there you go!!!!!

PS. Might have had one too many drinks!

Okay, now i'm, stitting here.....shall I post this or not....hhmmmm....ohhh well, go on then! Have a laugh, cause obvoulsily noone else has!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dartagnan, please check you PM.

Well now having seen the Channel 4 show....do you really want to work for a comapny with these work practises? Let alone pay for your type rating. Sums up what a couple of captain friends of mine tell me on a regular basis:rolleyes:

Dartagnan,
I was wondering how much has it cost you to carry out all the training for FR (including any hidden costs)?
Thanks
K4

After tonight's show on C4, you still want to work for them?
A company where pilots are afraid to speak up or take safe decisions just in case they might get sacked?
WAKE UP !!!!!!
FNav :{

RHS RYANAIR
 

I think most of these postings answer the question about a RHS with Ryanair, stay away from them especially ab-initios!!!!
Good luck to those looking for a job!

Any pilot working for Ryanair on this forum??
 

Hy all

Is there any pilot happy to work for Ryanair???? :)

It is impossible that no one of the nearly 800 pilots currently working for Ryan is happy........

All of you are saying bad things about Ryanair (true or not i don't know)..........but the truth is that none of you is working for them.........so.......how can you prove those things???

I have friends (based in italy) working for them saying that is a good place to work and also the training is good.....

I really don't know............. :ugh:

I think the most frustrating thing about working for them is that things could be so much better, so easily. The aggression from office staff, the nasty corporate culture, the greed etc are all so unecessary. I don't think you get the best out of people by treating them like that.

Having said that, once the doors are closed and all the hassle stops, its not the worst job in the world, in fact if all the other hassles stopped it would be a great job.

I would suggest you read here though if your thinking of joining: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=208754

carmoisine has summed it up well. The job is fine and I'm happy with it.

my 2 cents:

i'm a 250 hours. I'm applying to become a FI.
I have no money to spend in a type rating.
But i say to myself: life is hard and a TRUE career is builded in TIME.
Bring on your career STEP by STEP, little steps, enjoy and learn between this steps with another philosophy. ALL and NOW philosophy is not good. If anyone like Ryanair make you think that is possible to build a career buyin it and not building it, let your brain work: THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH IT.
I have some school collegue that have paid their type rating and now are in airlines. I don't disagree with them: if they have the money to do it... why not to do it?
But don't crash your personal life building a debt that destroy your personal quality of life for many years.

If you like to fly, enjoy flying everything: a little SEP with a student on your side, a little MEP with two costumers that can give you some hint on financial businnes or a piper to look for fire in the woods.
THIS IS FLYING.

If you destroy your life with debts and problems just to put on an uniform or to satisfy your self consideration telling friends that you pilot a boeing, i believe you don't like "Flying"... you like something else.

My grandpa says: Wisdom is to put a shoes in front of the other having time to look out to the landscape.

Excuse me for my bad english and remember that all life choices are personal.
This message is not a judgement, is only my little point of view.

Porco Rosso, Tuscany, Italy

Very wise words from the red pig!

If you had ever met some of the persons that run these airlines you would quickly see that the sstr trend has got nothing whatsoever to do with market forces, as is often believed, but quite a lot to do with the ability to make maximum profit possible, basically its only greed, and make no mistake about this, some of these people are animals to work for. They change the terms and conditions for new entrants becuse they can, not because they have to, they also attempt to push existing pilots to the limit, but can`t get away with quite as much, yet. Once the mindset of ` This is my dream job` , and I will do anything to get it` changes then the sstr would have to go with it.
Normally though by the time that happens, after continual early/late starts, finishes, anti social life style, broken relationships, and stress caused by anything from malfunctions to near misses { yes they do breakdown, they are only machines] and people discover that being a pilot is only just another job, better than some, worse than others, . Of course in the real world it won`t happen as we all bought into the dream { literally] and no doubt we will continue to do so.
Good Luck.

I have been reading this thread from the beginning and i think it's time i gave my input to this "Ryanair Saga".

First a little about myself:
I live in Belgium, started flight school when i was 18, ab-initio.
I did my flight school with Ben Air Flight Academy (http://www.bafa.be - dutch) in evening school. Worked in the day hours to pay my school and went to school in the evening. Aside from that i had some help from my parents with payments like car, etc....
I finished school when i was 22.

Now here is my input:
It seems to me that most of you guys and galls have a "HERE AND NOW" expectation when you finish flight school, well, FORGET THAT.
Take it easy, don't go directly for that big jet, you WON'T get it, and if you do, your screwed. It's as simple as that.
Why not do like i do, contact a small local airport, ask for prices to rent an aircraft and place some advertising, whatever, take people on small trips, foto shoots, pick up and returns, package delivery, etc.... there is ENOUGH outthere if you let that grey mass inside your head work.
Do your time building, it won't cost you one penny.

I can see what the problem is here, your not flying those big birds.
Well, get over it. Why did you start flgith school in the first place? TO FLY. Not to tell your friends, parents, girlfriend your driving the bigest planes around the globe. I have a general love for "flying", not "flying big birds". I know, other people in our hard world of aviation, most people even, will laugh at you. So what? Your flying, they aren't, your building time, they aren't.

When you have enough time building and enough ME hours go write to some airlines, don't take the biggest outthere, start with the small ones and you'll see things are very different when you got something to show.

That's about the best of advice i can give you and it's worked for me. Right now i'm at the right seat of an MD-11, it took me 8 years but i'm there and you know what? I didn't put myself into debt and didn't destroy my personal life so boys and galls, there are ways, just keep holding on to that dream, don't let go and give it time.

Regards,
Ultra.
Belgium.

I personaly think you have to look at the quality of the airline.
flying a big jet and having an ass as a manager is the worse thing you can get in your life.

flying a smaller plane in a good company makes you happy.
I would refer to be paid to fly a turboprop than not to be paid and flying a Boeing.
So stay away from these companies like ryanair, who tell you you will get your hours...
my dream, is to get out of the plane, run to the bank to cash my salary cheque! and buy my things I want for christmas and have a car, and enough money to go out with a girlfriend. can you do that at ryanair, no!

do I have a life at ryanair? NO....what is the point to have jet hours and never be paid???