Nepotism in pilot selection
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Which years were you in AB?
You might remember in 2018-2019 the large number of Dutch pilots getting in for the A220 positions.
Almost all of them were AIS company jetstream, 31 first officers.
Jetstream 31 was not complying with the FMS, EFIS aircraft experience entry requirement for the A220 position
Still they got invited and got hired while modern jet pilots were failed.
That time the assessment was in an old, weary B737 classic sim, they could easily fail anyone
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The same was saying a guy in airBaltic topic
There was a conversation about the pilots who were not filling the entry requirements and still got in
As a result just for the ab A220 fleet, there are 3 runway excursions, one AOG due a hard landing (93kt over the runway in AMS hitting the ground above 1200 fpm ) and an incident where an A220 started final descent before FAF and was flying at 600ft AGL in 6,5 NM before the runway threshold, over Brussels city in VMC
There was a conversation about the pilots who were not filling the entry requirements and still got in
As a result just for the ab A220 fleet, there are 3 runway excursions, one AOG due a hard landing (93kt over the runway in AMS hitting the ground above 1200 fpm ) and an incident where an A220 started final descent before FAF and was flying at 600ft AGL in 6,5 NM before the runway threshold, over Brussels city in VMC
It differs so much from individual to individual, even though in most cases the experienced pilot is on the front foot. It is much easier to train a pilot with good personality to fly well than to try to change an unwanted personality of a experienced pilot.
Why would anyone think it out of order for an airline to hire whomsoever they like regardless of any experience levels stated in an advert. It is, after all, just an advert not a legally binding contract. If they see someone they particularly like they're quite at liberty to hire them regardless of qualifications as long as the candidate meets statutary minimum experience/standards requirements (if any) before commencing line flying.
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Why would anyone think it out of order for an airline to hire whomsoever they like regardless of any experience levels stated in an advert. It is, after all, just an advert not a legally binding contract. If they see someone they particularly like they're quite at liberty to hire them regardless of qualifications as long as the candidate meets statutary minimum experience/standards requirements (if any) before commencing line flying.
Some years ago I participated a wizz air interview. One of the requirements was to have 300 hours in the last 12 months.
I had them when I applied but till they call me time passed. When they checked my logbook at the interview day, my flight hours for the last 12 months were around 270 and they didn't let me continue to the next phase.
How on earth is someone invited for an assessment without meeting the entry requirements for other airlines?
Let's say airline X is advertising for hours in aircrafts above 50 tons.
Do you think they will invite pilots with hours on a Cessna Caravan?
Even if Cessna Caravan pilots who will apply are super skilled or whatsoever they will never have the chance to show their abilities to airline X.
How the recruiter will take the responsibility to invite 5 times more people to check if ''likes'' someones who don't have hours on aircrafts above 50 tons?
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So you are saying that after the pandemic airlines in EU have hard time finding qualified pilots? Most of airlines ceased hiring since late 19, lots of experienced pilots lost their jobs especially in China and the war in Ukraine made it worse.
I say that there is no way that airlines are forced to hire below the requirements cause of pilot shortage, that’s a joke
I say that there is no way that airlines are forced to hire below the requirements cause of pilot shortage, that’s a joke
A few months went back and the company realized they did not find enough people and basically called and ask about my availability in 3 weeks. The assessment was quick and I got the job. My backgrond was TT 130 hrs, type rated B737, 1hr (MPL).
This is not a ****ty company, quite a nice and well renowned one.
Other things to note, I am getting an email from Wizz about once per week asking me to book my assessment asap, Ryanair is starting a ”Pilot recruitment roadshow”, they do everything if there is a good business case for it, they would not if they did not need to. Then again, we are not even at 2019 levels yet.
Thread Starter
No it’s not. I am a prime example of it. My company advertised that they were looking for pilots with minimum 1000 hrs early last year.
A few months went back and the company realized they did not find enough people and basically called and ask about my availability in 3 weeks. The assessment was quick and I got the job. My backgrond was TT 130 hrs, type rated B737, 1hr (MPL).
This is not a ****ty company, quite a nice and well renowned one.
Other things to note, I am getting an email from Wizz about once per week asking me to book my assessment asap, Ryanair is starting a ”Pilot recruitment roadshow”, they do everything if there is a good business case for it, they would not if they did not need to. Then again, we are not even at 2019 levels yet.
A few months went back and the company realized they did not find enough people and basically called and ask about my availability in 3 weeks. The assessment was quick and I got the job. My backgrond was TT 130 hrs, type rated B737, 1hr (MPL).
This is not a ****ty company, quite a nice and well renowned one.
Other things to note, I am getting an email from Wizz about once per week asking me to book my assessment asap, Ryanair is starting a ”Pilot recruitment roadshow”, they do everything if there is a good business case for it, they would not if they did not need to. Then again, we are not even at 2019 levels yet.
28th Nov 2022, 18:03
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snuspe
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Also posting my experience from the CJ assessment. As said before, just about an hour of briefing with 2 other candidates, 1 captain and 1 f/o.
I was second in to do the sim, 737 fixed based sim, not very nice to fly for an assessment but does the job. I am 737 type rated with a few hundred hours on type and I’d say that was beneficial in the sim, especially the handling and setup part, the other guy will help you if you don’t have experience on type so nothing to worry about. Normal departure out of RWY16 LSZH, LNAV/VNAV available but manual thrust so you ask for climb thrust at 1000 AAL in this case.
After departure, asked about a holding and which entry I’d perform, did not have to do the holding but I explained thoroughly how I would do it. After that manuevering part as described above and some questions regarding pans ops, holding limits, procedural turn etc.
After that reposition to the ground to perform EFATO and procedure 2 DME KLO then left turn to ZUE VOR, quite simple. After that holding with LNAV, TDODAR, NITS and some questions of how I’d phrase questions regarding issues to the cabin.
After that flying a base leg to intercept ILS 16, flying approach to minimums then the published missed app. Right after that asked by the holding by the end of the missed approach and which entry again, did not have to do it again. After this session completed, all in all about 50 min in the sim for me, quite stressful in the sim but overall an alright environment, now waiting for an email whether successful or not.
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No it’s not. I am a prime example of it. My company advertised that they were looking for pilots with minimum 1000 hrs early last year.
A few months went back and the company realized they did not find enough people and basically called and ask about my availability in 3 weeks. The assessment was quick and I got the job. My backgrond was TT 130 hrs, type rated B737, 1hr (MPL).
This is not a ****ty company, quite a nice and well renowned one.
Other things to note, I am getting an email from Wizz about once per week asking me to book my assessment asap, Ryanair is starting a ”Pilot recruitment roadshow”, they do everything if there is a good business case for it, they would not if they did not need to. Then again, we are not even at 2019 levels yet.
A few months went back and the company realized they did not find enough people and basically called and ask about my availability in 3 weeks. The assessment was quick and I got the job. My backgrond was TT 130 hrs, type rated B737, 1hr (MPL).
This is not a ****ty company, quite a nice and well renowned one.
Other things to note, I am getting an email from Wizz about once per week asking me to book my assessment asap, Ryanair is starting a ”Pilot recruitment roadshow”, they do everything if there is a good business case for it, they would not if they did not need to. Then again, we are not even at 2019 levels yet.
Also posting my experience from the CJ assessment. As said before, just about an hour of briefing with 2 other candidates, 1 captain and 1 f/o.
I was second in to do the sim, 737 fixed based sim, not very nice to fly for an assessment but does the job. I am 737 type rated with a few hundred hours on type and I’d say that was beneficial in the sim, especially the handling and setup part, the other guy will help you if you don’t have experience on type so nothing to worry about. Normal departure out of RWY16 LSZH, LNAV/VNAV available but manual thrust so you ask for climb thrust at 1000 AAL in this case.
After departure, asked about a holding and which entry I’d perform, did not have to do the holding but I explained thoroughly how I would do it. After that manuevering part as described above and some questions regarding pans ops, holding limits, procedural turn etc.
After that reposition to the ground to perform EFATO and procedure 2 DME KLO then left turn to ZUE VOR, quite simple. After that holding with LNAV, TDODAR, NITS and some questions of how I’d phrase questions regarding issues to the cabin.
After that flying a base leg to intercept ILS 16, flying approach to minimums then the published missed app. Right after that asked by the holding by the end of the missed approach and which entry again, did not have to do it again. After this session completed, all in all about 50 min in the sim for me, quite stressful in the sim but overall an alright environment, now waiting for an email whether successful or not.
I was second in to do the sim, 737 fixed based sim, not very nice to fly for an assessment but does the job. I am 737 type rated with a few hundred hours on type and I’d say that was beneficial in the sim, especially the handling and setup part, the other guy will help you if you don’t have experience on type so nothing to worry about. Normal departure out of RWY16 LSZH, LNAV/VNAV available but manual thrust so you ask for climb thrust at 1000 AAL in this case.
After departure, asked about a holding and which entry I’d perform, did not have to do the holding but I explained thoroughly how I would do it. After that manuevering part as described above and some questions regarding pans ops, holding limits, procedural turn etc.
After that reposition to the ground to perform EFATO and procedure 2 DME KLO then left turn to ZUE VOR, quite simple. After that holding with LNAV, TDODAR, NITS and some questions of how I’d phrase questions regarding issues to the cabin.
After that flying a base leg to intercept ILS 16, flying approach to minimums then the published missed app. Right after that asked by the holding by the end of the missed approach and which entry again, did not have to do it again. After this session completed, all in all about 50 min in the sim for me, quite stressful in the sim but overall an alright environment, now waiting for an email whether successful or not.
We got you misinformation spy
Look, it's pretty clear selection processes create a lot of stress, and there are more failures than succes stories. Only one advice: never ever let the frustration get the better side of you. It will close pretty much every door you're knocking on.
As a trainer I can only say it doesn't make any difference if you have no type rating, 100 hours on type or 500 hours on type. I would even say: the "out-of-school" guy is the easiest because of everything you guys are doing here. He has 0 experience and he knows it. You guys are claiming you "deserve" the position more than any other guy... on what basis? The 500 hour guys are sometimes the worst because they've been in one single company and they are out there to show you what's it all about. In my book that's already a pretty bad start (not because I think so, it's just pure experience). There is no competition. There is the SOPs you need to learn, the procedures used within a company so a group of people can co-operate. First things first.
Give me any company, and I'll give you reports of stupidity. Be carefull when you start to blame companies or pilots like that. As a pilot you don't want to be blamed because you've been stupid. And believe me, you'll do stupidity too...
I only react because my company is hiring as well, and stories from friends of friends of friends hardly ever grasp the reality of what really happened. The reality is simple: the company needs a girl/guy that can do the job. But they will never ever need YOU specifically.
Buy a good mirror, a book on assesments, and look at yourself. So that when the day comes you get a shot, you stopped fingerpointing someone else.
As a trainer I can only say it doesn't make any difference if you have no type rating, 100 hours on type or 500 hours on type. I would even say: the "out-of-school" guy is the easiest because of everything you guys are doing here. He has 0 experience and he knows it. You guys are claiming you "deserve" the position more than any other guy... on what basis? The 500 hour guys are sometimes the worst because they've been in one single company and they are out there to show you what's it all about. In my book that's already a pretty bad start (not because I think so, it's just pure experience). There is no competition. There is the SOPs you need to learn, the procedures used within a company so a group of people can co-operate. First things first.
Give me any company, and I'll give you reports of stupidity. Be carefull when you start to blame companies or pilots like that. As a pilot you don't want to be blamed because you've been stupid. And believe me, you'll do stupidity too...
I only react because my company is hiring as well, and stories from friends of friends of friends hardly ever grasp the reality of what really happened. The reality is simple: the company needs a girl/guy that can do the job. But they will never ever need YOU specifically.
Buy a good mirror, a book on assesments, and look at yourself. So that when the day comes you get a shot, you stopped fingerpointing someone else.
Last edited by BraceBrace; 30th May 2023 at 16:25.
Thread Starter
Look, it's pretty clear selection processes create a lot of stress, and there are more failures than succes stories. Only one advice: never ever let the frustration get the better side of you. It will close pretty much every door you're knocking on.
As a trainer I can only say it doesn't make any difference if you have no type rating, 100 hours on type or 500 hours on type. I would even say: the "out-of-school" guy is the easiest because of everything you guys are doing here. He has 0 experience and he knows it. You guys are claiming you "deserve" the position more than any other guy... on what basis? The 500 hour guys are sometimes the worst because they've been in one single company and they are out there to show you what's it all about. In my book that's already a pretty bad start (not because I think so, it's just pure experience). There is no competition. There is the SOPs you need to learn, the procedures used within a company so a group of people can co-operate. First things first.
Give my any company, and I'll give you reports of stupidity. Be carefull when you start to blame companies like that. As a pilot you don't want to be blamed because you've been stupid. And believe me, you'll do stupidity too...
I'm not going to go into a discussion on specific airlines and "selection process" because they are free to handle these selections as they desire. There is a lot more involved than the things I read here. I only react because my company is hiring as well, and stories from friends of friends of friends hardly ever grasp the reality of what really happened. The reality is simple: the company needs a girl/guy that can do the job. They will never ever need YOU specifically.
So go buy a good mirror, a book on assesments, and look at yourself. So that when the day comes you get a shot, you stopped fingerpointing at someone else.
As a trainer I can only say it doesn't make any difference if you have no type rating, 100 hours on type or 500 hours on type. I would even say: the "out-of-school" guy is the easiest because of everything you guys are doing here. He has 0 experience and he knows it. You guys are claiming you "deserve" the position more than any other guy... on what basis? The 500 hour guys are sometimes the worst because they've been in one single company and they are out there to show you what's it all about. In my book that's already a pretty bad start (not because I think so, it's just pure experience). There is no competition. There is the SOPs you need to learn, the procedures used within a company so a group of people can co-operate. First things first.
Give my any company, and I'll give you reports of stupidity. Be carefull when you start to blame companies like that. As a pilot you don't want to be blamed because you've been stupid. And believe me, you'll do stupidity too...
I'm not going to go into a discussion on specific airlines and "selection process" because they are free to handle these selections as they desire. There is a lot more involved than the things I read here. I only react because my company is hiring as well, and stories from friends of friends of friends hardly ever grasp the reality of what really happened. The reality is simple: the company needs a girl/guy that can do the job. They will never ever need YOU specifically.
So go buy a good mirror, a book on assesments, and look at yourself. So that when the day comes you get a shot, you stopped fingerpointing at someone else.
I am have experience in both military and civilian aviation and I can say that I have cooperated with a lot of people from different backgrounds.
The current topic is NOT about who fits in a specific airline but which airlines don’t follow their own rules. I wouldn’t trust an airline like that not even as a passenger.
I started this thread cause I see a lot of complaints in different topics, my goal was to make a list.
Opinions like who fits in general etc etc are irrelevant to this topic
You jump into conclusions which are contrary with my posts. In my first post already I said that I am happy with my current job but sometimes homesick and that was the only reason I tried for a company in my hometown.
I am have experience in both military and civilian aviation and I can say that I have cooperated with a lot of people from different backgrounds.
The current topic is NOT about who fits in a specific airline but which airlines don’t follow their own rules
I am have experience in both military and civilian aviation and I can say that I have cooperated with a lot of people from different backgrounds.
The current topic is NOT about who fits in a specific airline but which airlines don’t follow their own rules
You talked about bribery. Not me. You talked about blame. Not me.
Thread Starter
I will repeat. It's not because an airline puts out an add, there is a legal requirement from their part to LIMIT the selection process to those people. They are free to invite others as well. Is it so hard to accept the fact that they are not obliged to see you because they hired somebody else?
You talked about bribery. Not me. You talked about blame. Not me.
You talked about bribery. Not me. You talked about blame. Not me.
English is not my native language, can we agree that entering requirements are a “rule”?
What about companies who don’t follow their rules? What’s the motivation to invite 5 times more people? To spend more time and money?
We see things completely different, I never applied for a job that I didn’t comply with the add. Do you think I will have any luck with TUI which asks for a 787 TR? I don’t have one. According to you, maybe they will hire me, I should apply then!
Have you ever tried applying without meeting the requirements?
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Why to repeat, I never argued regarding the legality.
English is not my native language, can we agree that entering requirements are a “rule”?
What about companies who don’t follow their rules? What’s the motivation to invite 5 times more people? To spend more time and money?
We see things completely different, I never applied for a job that I didn’t comply with the add. Do you think I will have any luck with TUI which asks for a 787 TR? I don’t have one. According to you, maybe they will hire me, I should apply then!
Have you ever tried applying without meeting the requirements?
English is not my native language, can we agree that entering requirements are a “rule”?
What about companies who don’t follow their rules? What’s the motivation to invite 5 times more people? To spend more time and money?
We see things completely different, I never applied for a job that I didn’t comply with the add. Do you think I will have any luck with TUI which asks for a 787 TR? I don’t have one. According to you, maybe they will hire me, I should apply then!
Have you ever tried applying without meeting the requirements?
That stands for all northern European companies.
In southern Europe maybe, if you have an uncle in the company
For eastern Europe for sure if you know the channel to pass some cash. I am not saying that all companies in Eastern Europe are prone to bribery. My personal experience was for only one. When I graduated an Instructor proposed me to secure me a First Officer position in an eastern European company if I would give him money so he would arrange it. He told me that he wouldn't keep the money (at least all) for himself. It was cheaper than an official P2F program.
I didn't take the offer to say if he could really arrange with the company. I would say that he was speaking the truth cause other graduates from my school were hired in that specific company
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We witnessed a desperate attempt to convince us that is common for airlines to invite and hire people who don't meet the entry requirements
Their stupidity makes it worse
@WaylanderShade from the airBaltic topic was the first. He had to change his location from Prague to US and went silent now
Their stupidity makes it worse
@WaylanderShade from the airBaltic topic was the first. He had to change his location from Prague to US and went silent now
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Haha, I bet these pilots are the ones who have never been the best or brightest ones in the training either. I’ve got a friend at AB who had a partner in the assesment (B737SIM) who used the wrong foot in oei-situation, could not fly raw data ILS even when given multiple attempts and had well over 1000 hrs. I’m not saying that the experience does not matter, of course if you have 2000 hrs in type, you are more competent to fly the aircraft than freshly graduated pilot with less than 200hrs. But lets say that there is a flight school in which 100 from 3000-4000 applicants get chosen, a pilot with top attitude and work ethic might be much better first officer after type-rating course than someone from a commercial flight school where almost anyone can buy their pilot training from and then getting 1000 hrs from somewhere.
It differs so much from individual to individual, even though in most cases the experienced pilot is on the front foot. It is much easier to train a pilot with good personality to fly well than to try to change an unwanted personality of a experienced pilot.
It differs so much from individual to individual, even though in most cases the experienced pilot is on the front foot. It is much easier to train a pilot with good personality to fly well than to try to change an unwanted personality of a experienced pilot.
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I am referring to male candidates and I would like to ask them: you are afraid of nepotism but the #femaleinaviation trend does not concern you, right? Have you ever thought that some airlines give priority to women, not because they are more competent, but because they have to follow the modern trends and occupy a certain number of positions with women? This automatically can leave you out of the process for a while and you can lose time.
‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told
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Who is wrecking the A220's then?
5 serious pilot induced incidents are too many for a brand new fleet.
You have location Finland. Did you have your training at Patria in Pirkkala?
You may know the Finnish FI's from Patria who managed to skip the entry requirements and got hired
Did they tell you the story?
I really doubt if it is true. 1000+ hours on commercial aicraft means a lot of OPC's, how did he survive them?
Don't believe your friend, I wouldn't trust a guy who managed to skip certain requirements
You say
It is much easier to train a pilot with good personality to fly well than to try to change an unwanted personality of a experienced pilot.
Depends on how they got in
With what I have seen, pilots with the worst attitude are the ones who were favoured at the initial selection
From day one are sure that they will never be kicked out no matter what and of course they will be promoted to Captains regardless their performance
Happened to act as safety pilot for a couple of them, they were more concerned filming videos for instagram rather flying
One of them after his bad landings was always saying with a smile in his face next time will be a kiss landing
It's not something you say during your line training unless you are secured for some reason
By far the worst captain I have flown with was an ass licker. He sucked cocks to get jobs and he continued like that.
Bad pilot, bad person couldn't expect anything else from an lickspittle
The final ultimate goal of the airline is to fly from A to B either for themselves or for a customer. Finding "the best pilot out there" is not an airline goal (although some might claim to, it usually doesn't end up well), airlines need somebody who can get that job done. Also, selection and training are two different worlds. It's fascinating to see how many people here tend to think passing a selection is a guarantee for training succes. It's also fascinating to see how people link selection to final "f^ck^ps" on the line, as if all doors are wide open and everything was clear from the moment they got hired. So somebody with a good selection, top ace pilot, will never end up on doing a 'f^ck^p"? Get real will you.
Stop thinking the selection process is about you, it's about the company that needs an "end product" in a few weeks and is looking for candidates that can fill that spot. Stop looking at the others, a simple add with 300hrs minimum requirements might be obsolote if the day after there is all of a sudden a new hired guy who calls in sick, or even worse, calls in to say he got hired in another company and a training slot needs to be filled.
Give your frustrations another way out, because in this topic there is honestly a lot of b$llsh$t. If you don't like the company, don't apply. And yes I have applied with less than minimum requirements, got even a job offer based on my cv for another job which I had to stay in for 3 years before they would give me a chance to transfer to the flightdeck. And I have witnessed people who have accepted such position and failed pilot selection eventually as well.
Give it your best shot, simply show you are a guy that can get the job done and be patient. Don't go out to show how damn good you are, don't think you're better than the others.
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That ''offer'' I had from this instructor was to give 10k cash, plus an overpriced TR, to have a salary of around 1200 euros
Obviously some pilots were taking that offer and I guess it wasn't the only airline with this practice
Why airlines to pay high salaries if so many pilots in Europe are willing to reach that point...
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No I did not, neither did my friend who is now at ab. He was in the recruitment process pre covid when they were hiring Q400 fo:s and what I can tell about the guy in the sim, he was from our neighbouring country where maybe not all opc`s are that strict. I do not know anybody who has got chosen to an airline with less hours than has been required, I was just telling my opinion with an example from real life, at least to some extent. And as I said, most of the experienced pilots are of course more competent than fresh graduates, but there are rare exceptions. For example if you go through a selection process to your training, where 2 percent of the applicants get chosen, it might be that you have some qualities that are seeked from the airlines also.