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500 HOURS LT not much help

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500 HOURS LT not much help

Old 10th Aug 2013, 16:28
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there is still knowledge deficiency's in my aviation knowledge that need improving.
This is your reason for not instructing PPLs but you think a high performance twin jet with hundreds of paying passengers is the right place for you. Good grief! And if after 50 sectors airline flying is not flicking your switch any more than I think the answer to your predicament is obvious to everyone. Sorry if the replies are not quite as positive as you would like. Call it tough love.

Your answers swing my opinion more towards troll but as I said, if it opens the eyes of some young dreamers than all is not lost. You ask what I do: was a military pilot, now airline.

Lingdee,
500 hours on type, they will be ahead of you
Ahead, as in 99% of the way back in the queue, as opposed to last in the queue. Only the front 20% are going to get jobs though.
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Old 10th Aug 2013, 16:47
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Lingdee - This is not a fake account, I genuinely did the line training, if you think doing 500 hours will get you a job go ahead and do it & report back to me with your findings! I think you will find the reality very sobering

Torquetonight - Yes perhaps its time to call it a day, but remember there was always a TRI/TRE or LFI Captain flying with me so safety was never compromised, I am not saying I am a dummy and know nothing, I feel I know the B737 and its systems a lot better than perhaps the subject of Meteorology, I was just pointing out I would not feel comfortable instructing others until such a time that I improved my basic knowledge again.

The 737 takes a long time to learn, and you can lose sight of the basics that's all I was saying, for example at this moment in time, I would not be able to tell you how to calculate pressure altitude. I would need to look at the books.

I am not a troll either
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Old 10th Aug 2013, 17:07
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Don't get me wrong. I feel sorry for you even though I think you are largely responsible for your misfortune. Nobody would like to be in your position and all of us have been through (and are still going through) the struggles of trying to make a success of this industry.

I am surprised, to put it politely, that after completing ATPL theory, CPL/ME/IR training, MCC, maybe JOC, and 500 hours of professional type flying, you cannot calculate pressure altitude. I think you're right that there are gaps in your knowledge. Perhaps the reason this surprises me is that my, and some of the other posters, training backgrounds were of a higher quality than yours. This completes the circle that others have mentioned of airlines wanting to recruit products of known quality training, and that by taking the shortcut of P2F you may have 500 hours but not quality training or experience. You can buy hours, but you probably can't buy a job.

Additionally the magic 500 hours on type is normally a filter to thin out the tsunami of applications that any job ad normally receives. If everybody buys 500 hrs then the filter will be set at 1000 hrs, then 1500 then 2000 - you get the picture. At that rate you could hit mandatory retirement before you ever turned a profit in this industry. 500 on type may be a common filter in the job ads but with less than 2.5K to 3k you'd be struggling to find work. Would anyone really pay for that much P2F? Where does it end?
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Old 10th Aug 2013, 17:25
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Yes this is true, I self studied everything never had a class room theory session so there are a few things I just never fully understood.

Would have been great to have a fully integrated course, but I went modular pay as you go, doing the theory on my own, and the flight school just wanted to pass everyone!

I will have to see what the future holds, but like you say there are just so many people at the entry level making it near impossible to stand out

I heard on another forum that Cathay had to change a database because there current system could not cope with the amount of applications & everyone had to re-apply.

Ah wish I still had my money and just flew privately!! I have to work an early morning cleaning job 5-8 then my regular job (customer service) 9-5 and then I have a 3rd job in a bar on weekends 7 till late! and all this just to pay back the huge loan I took for the training and LT, I have to say if it had paid off and I had 10 grand per month coming in it would have been worth it, but jeez grounds for depression.com

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I appreciate it and I wish you well in your current flying jobs, you worked hard for them, enjoy
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Old 10th Aug 2013, 17:38
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Originally Posted by Leon1983
Torquetonight - Yes perhaps its time to call it a day, but remember there was always a TRI/TRE or LFI Captain flying with me so safety was never compromised
What about captain incapacitation? Who's going to babysit you then? BTW, are they really using instructors for all of the 500 hours? If they are, it speaks volumes about the trust they have in their training department or the quality of trainees. My bet is on the latter though...

Originally Posted by Leon1983
The 737 takes a long time to learn, and you can lose sight of the basics that's all I was saying, for example at this moment in time, I would not be able to tell you how to calculate pressure altitude. I would need to look at the books.
1. 737 is not that complicated aircraft
2. Sorry to say that, but if you cannot calculate pressure altitude, you have no place being involved in commercial operations - be it with C172 or A380.
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Old 10th Aug 2013, 18:26
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What about captain incapacitation? Who's going to babysit you then?
I am type rated on the 737, I have all relevant licenses and have passed an OPC, do you think I have never flow an areoplane before???

737 is not that complicated aircraft
if you think that then there is certainly no place for you in aviation either, there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots my friend.

Sorry to say that, but if you cannot calculate pressure altitude, you have no place being involved in commercial operations - be it with C172 or A380.
Oh I'm sorry if this is so important why I have never once used it in all my LT hours??
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Old 10th Aug 2013, 19:30
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Despite extreme temptation, I am not going to engage on this one any further than this. Suffice to say that it is about solid foundations, depth of knowledge and that old fashioned airmanship thing. This isn't so much a dig at you personally as a comment on the output of the training system and the reasons why many recruiters aren't impressed by it.
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Old 10th Aug 2013, 20:03
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I think you probably use it did during your line training - pressure altitude is simply what is displayed when 1013 is set on the altimeter...
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Old 10th Aug 2013, 22:42
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A friend of mine joined Lion Air on P2F about 2.5 years ago, and few weeks ago I got this e-mail from him, after no news for maybe 7 - 8 months.

"Still in Lion air, unfortunately, And now have around 1700 hours on the B737 Ng, and 2300 total Time. But it is not easy to find a better job. In fact, in the world of aviation, the companies prefer hire a young monkey.
I am so disappointed with this statement.

I have a friend, who was offered the B777 job but he told me the salary is shit, and you have to pay for the TR.....so he decided to stay in Lion Air."


I find this both sad and compelling, but this is the truth of the industry, it is being destroyed for all with the illusion of a good future career once you get passed 500 hours.

There is not much sympathy from me to your case either, chance was taken, and the writing has been on the wall all the time.
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Old 10th Aug 2013, 23:47
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I almost did a line training program on the A320 6 months ago but after thinking long and hard over the few months I decided against it. I had made a plan to instruct in the US this September and build up hours over the next two years and then hope that the airline industry will have improved in the mean time.

I continued to network, get myself out there and do some GA flying at my local aero club and continued to save for my Instructor Rating. Then out of the blue I get a call from an A320 operater in Asia offering an interview. I flew down immediately and landed a job on the A320 (o hours on type). I'm so glad I didnt do the line training now! I move to Asia next month.

My point is don't do the line training, you will get a break guys, it will happen.

And for you Leon, keep networking, keep flying and dont give up. Go and bang on the doors that are hiring and hand in your CV. Airlines want to see your face!

Thought I would share my story!

Best of Luck!!
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 06:51
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Truckflyer - your friend should have taken the 777 job

A320 - congrats on your new job!

Well there seems to be a twist in the tale for me! I don't know if fate has brought it on but I have been invited for an interview at Jet2! I will post my outcome! it all seems a bit surreal for now after I almost packed it in and complain on here!
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 13:24
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What a strange twist of fate. Between 1826 on a Saturday night and 0651 on a Sunday morning our man has been called to an interview. The recruiting dept is working weekend night shifts!

Lean has now 'retired' from PPRuNe. My money is definitely on troll, but young dreamers would still do well to learn from this thread.
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 18:20
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To Leon

I don't really know if your story is real but I have doubts reading some of your posts!!

I you have 500 hrs on a 737 I see no reason why you would not be of interest to an Airline.I don't know where you live or if you are prepared to move to secure a job I am i the UK myself.

Straight off if you have those hours you could apply NOW to both Easyjet and Jet 2 there are probably more also.

If you are genuine you should be active everyday and a damn site more positive than you come across as many would kill to have those hours on their c.v. including me!

Just check everyday on here on ppjn.com and on latestpilotjobs.com that would be a start.

By the way if you have made your story up your pretty sick my friend and I suggest you go get some counselling!

To say that the 737 is not complicated by the way is ! I recon you could fly it for 20 years and still be learning new things about the aircraft....
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 19:07
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Thumbs down

The problems with some of these line training programs, is that the companies baby - sit the crews, I have seen this a few times from people who have done it.

There is a few guys I know, did 300 hours on A320, and they was always with heavy crew, they was very rarely allowed to land/handle the airplane.

To a320, I am guessing it is Cebu, ok different story, but know guys who have been there to, and the frustration is that you hardly get to fly the aircraft, only in special circumstances, with captains that are allowed to do this with you.
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 19:38
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I think it will depend on how you do in the sim and on the base training whether you observe in the right hand seat or not, maybe I'm wrong.

I can understand if airlines don't want to give the keys of a $30million dollar jet to a guy who was flying Cessna's. I would probably be the same if I had an airline.

If I have to observe for 200 hours so be it, certainly beats sitting on my ass gaining 0 hours.

We have to start somewhere, look at the positives!

Too much negativity on PPRuNe sometimes.
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 21:39
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Don't get me wrong, it is just the mentality over there for FO's with low experience, I know somebody first hand that has been there, and told me. Sure he came back with many hours, and got a job, and he is a good pilot, however he also told me the frustrating thing there i Captain SkyGod, and that is regardless of how well you handle.
However I agree, it is better than doing nothing, and it is better than P2F, but just be prepared for the opposite of what you expect is good CRM.
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Old 12th Aug 2013, 01:49
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Wow, I am impressed with all these negative comments by Pilots who have lived and still live "the good life". Truth is the market at the moment asks for a minimum of 500 hrs turbine time and maybe 1000 TT for first officers. The real catch is to get those 500 hours turbine time.

There are only 2 options: 1) Airline hires you as first officer (not common)
2) You pay 50,000 for the Line training

I m glad you had the courage to do it. A few years ago, I totally condemned this behavior of paying to fly. But the world changes and if you don't do it, somebody smarter comes around and does it and now flies for Ryanair. And I just want to make it clear, that we really have no desire to spend 50,000 more just to have a better chance to sit at the right seat. Although I disagree with some of Ryanair´s policies, they are pretty much the only company hiring first officer with zero time. We really have no other choice...

I have 600 hrs TT, have both FAA and JAA licences, I am an instructor, have my MCC and A32O type rating, have a degree in Mechanical and Aeronautical Design Engineering, I am totally Bilingual English and Spanish and cant land a job at the airlines. Sadly for me, Ryanair only gets pilots with 200 hours so I had too many hours and didn't qualify.

Most of the comments I have read are from fellow Pilots who are lucky to be flying right now and do not care about the future generations which by the way, come more prepared and experienced at this premature stage than previous generations (No offence). Problem is, that getting a job at the airlines today is much more difficult than before, and its pay its much worse. Nonetheless,we still commit to the pursue of our dream, because for some flying is our dream and passion. Very few pilots these days really enjoy and are grateful for flying.

When I say more prepared I mean, If captains or experienced FOs who are currently flying had to sit down and take the type of theoretical tests they make the new FOs take..most would fail miserably. For sure they are great pilots, but most of the new FOs are very well prepared.

The world is changing and either you adapt or you die. For the pilots living the life right now...we want a piece of the pie too and at least I know I am not giving up.
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Old 12th Aug 2013, 07:43
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When I say more prepared I mean, If captains or experienced FOs who are currently flying had to sit down and take the type of theoretical tests they make the new FOs take..most would fail miserably. For sure they are great pilots, but most of the new FOs are very well prepared.
Well, there´s a clear and depth difference between pass an exam and real flying. And unfortunately, for pilot´s wallet, to pass an exam does not mean you´re ready for the real thing.
Those Captains and FOs currently flying, could score as good as anyone if they take a couple of months to prepare the exam. A cadet would need, at best, years of real operation to reach a similar level of experience.
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Old 12th Aug 2013, 10:32
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Leon

Congratulations, when is your interview with jet2?
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