Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)
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But i do think that it should help you to find a job with 500 hours on a320 and 1000 hours total .
I would really know about Super Pilot, is that a go or a no go? I really want to understand what think the older posters like him and what is his clear advice and influence on pprune.
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The 500 hour rule is something specific to Atlas. The other airlines don't have it. I have seen a couple of times in Turkey so-called "DGCA rules" which only apply to certain airlines.
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Superpilot:
Alright, I was expecting something a bit more neutral and balanced from you.
So pay to work is reasonable now? Reading that makes me want to chat a bit more.
May I ask you if you have payed to work to start your career?
Yes, definitely. No other reasonable way in thanks to current recruitment practices.
So pay to work is reasonable now? Reading that makes me want to chat a bit more.
May I ask you if you have payed to work to start your career?
Educated Hillbilly
I am not saying I necessarily approve of pay to fly, but it is quite easy to see why it has become so common.
I know of three turboprop operators in the UK that use to bond; all three now expect FOs to pay up front for the rating
Ok you say paying for a rating with a job offer is acceptable, but consider in this case each of these operators are exclusive in the type they operate and to stand a chance of getting an interview with these opeators will normally mean instructing (or some other GA activity) to get 700 to a 1000 hours.
(Companies in question are Eastern, West Atlantic (formerly Altantic Airlines), the third one will remain nameless, insider information gained in confidence).
So overall outlay to get a job on a rare turboprop used by no other operator; 7K for an instructors rating, a year of working on an instructor pay (15 to 25 pound per flight hour, may a small retainer if lucky), then fronting between 12 to 18 k for a rare tp rating.
I know of three turboprop operators in the UK that use to bond; all three now expect FOs to pay up front for the rating
Ok you say paying for a rating with a job offer is acceptable, but consider in this case each of these operators are exclusive in the type they operate and to stand a chance of getting an interview with these opeators will normally mean instructing (or some other GA activity) to get 700 to a 1000 hours.
(Companies in question are Eastern, West Atlantic (formerly Altantic Airlines), the third one will remain nameless, insider information gained in confidence).
So overall outlay to get a job on a rare turboprop used by no other operator; 7K for an instructors rating, a year of working on an instructor pay (15 to 25 pound per flight hour, may a small retainer if lucky), then fronting between 12 to 18 k for a rare tp rating.
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Post #9 by tarmac12
Well; from reading the various latter contributions it might be argued that my posts are indeed valid?
Life Experience? Can you elucidate where I might be lacking perhaps? Do you mean married, children, mortgage, permanent salaried flying job, Ex Military Pilot?
250 hours? Do you mean a quarter? or Annually? Or do you mean waiting at Signature EGGW (LTN)?
And here is the problem with pprune; Anonymity.
Clearly the identity of our contributors MUST stay anonymous but surely there is a place for transparent credentials? Am I offering an opinion lacking life experience? Lacking any professional Licence? Having never held and holding a Flying Job? sat in my Mums house logging 250hrs on FS98!
This has been suggested by tarmac12 and who can blame him.
...................Or perhaps the truth is the polar opposite?
With things so tough is there not a place for an honesty / transparency thread where wannabes can gain proper credible advise from people that actually fly for a living? Having climbed the slippery pole to get into long term, tenable, positions paying family supporting salaries. Suely, if proven worthy, these posts hold more weight? More Wheat, Less Chaff; thus the twaddle little noodle posts could be viewed for what they are.
Properly moderated, I would be delighted to join a private forum having proven my hand (not my name); I wonder if tarmac12 would be? I doubt it.
Tarmac12, why do you despise P2F? You don't go down to the local golf club to sling abuse at the fee paying membership as they tee off at the 1st? They've paid their money so they are entitled to have a game. P2F is exactly the same; do you not think that Tiger Woods paid the odd green fee in the early days? Some will never turn pro but at least they have had a chance to use their licence and have some cherished memories to dine out on. No one is suggesting P2F is a job; it is however a lots of fun, and will have a better chance of leading to a job than gaining some FI time out of a grass strip.
Life Experience? Can you elucidate where I might be lacking perhaps? Do you mean married, children, mortgage, permanent salaried flying job, Ex Military Pilot?
250 hours? Do you mean a quarter? or Annually? Or do you mean waiting at Signature EGGW (LTN)?
And here is the problem with pprune; Anonymity.
Clearly the identity of our contributors MUST stay anonymous but surely there is a place for transparent credentials? Am I offering an opinion lacking life experience? Lacking any professional Licence? Having never held and holding a Flying Job? sat in my Mums house logging 250hrs on FS98!
This has been suggested by tarmac12 and who can blame him....................Or perhaps the truth is the polar opposite?
With things so tough is there not a place for an honesty / transparency thread where wannabes can gain proper credible advise from people that actually fly for a living? Having climbed the slippery pole to get into long term, tenable, positions paying family supporting salaries. Suely, if proven worthy, these posts hold more weight? More Wheat, Less Chaff; thus the twaddle little noodle posts could be viewed for what they are.
Properly moderated, I would be delighted to join a private forum having proven my hand (not my name); I wonder if tarmac12 would be? I doubt it.
Tarmac12, why do you despise P2F? You don't go down to the local golf club to sling abuse at the fee paying membership as they tee off at the 1st? They've paid their money so they are entitled to have a game. P2F is exactly the same; do you not think that Tiger Woods paid the odd green fee in the early days? Some will never turn pro but at least they have had a chance to use their licence and have some cherished memories to dine out on. No one is suggesting P2F is a job; it is however a lots of fun, and will have a better chance of leading to a job than gaining some FI time out of a grass strip.
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May I ask you if you have payed to work to start your career?
Many careers require that the potential employee have the skills and qualifications in place before being offered a job position and yes that does often mean having to fund your own training.
An employer can be choosy these days knowing that there is quite a large pool of candidates out there - aviation is no different.
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Just like other professions?
How many doctors pay to operate on you? How many tube drivers pay to carry passengers? How many solicitors pay you to take on your court case?
After you have qualified as a doctor, lawyer, bus driver, you are paid to do your job.
The way to stop this rubbish is to say no! If the airlines can't find the crews they will pay you to fly.
As for those who don't care if folk p2f as its not their money, well, if you are professional aviators then you should be concerned because it will affect your ts&cs very soon. If you are a passenger, you should expect the very best aircrew up front not a p2f cadet who is being ripped off and will be back on the dole queue in a couple of months with less airbus time than the min required for a real job.
As for those that claim p2f cadets are now getting commands - piffle and twaddle! Name some! I just met 5 a320 guys who are out of work because of p2f.
As for those who claim instructing is for low wage earners - well at least they earn! Actually they earn £43k in some uk flying schools.
PPRUNE and BALPA should be ashamed of themselves for allowing p2f advertising at all.
After you have qualified as a doctor, lawyer, bus driver, you are paid to do your job.
The way to stop this rubbish is to say no! If the airlines can't find the crews they will pay you to fly.
As for those who don't care if folk p2f as its not their money, well, if you are professional aviators then you should be concerned because it will affect your ts&cs very soon. If you are a passenger, you should expect the very best aircrew up front not a p2f cadet who is being ripped off and will be back on the dole queue in a couple of months with less airbus time than the min required for a real job.
As for those that claim p2f cadets are now getting commands - piffle and twaddle! Name some! I just met 5 a320 guys who are out of work because of p2f.
As for those who claim instructing is for low wage earners - well at least they earn! Actually they earn £43k in some uk flying schools.
PPRUNE and BALPA should be ashamed of themselves for allowing p2f advertising at all.
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Regarding Curd, some finished his type rating courses and P2F scheme via BMI, joined EZY and then got chopped. Some finished the BMI line training, thinking they would get an interview via parc for EZY to find EZY changed their requirements. Not a good feeling if you have training debts and paid for all of this.
Regarding P2F, the CAA's should be stopping it from happening. If an airline needs a FO, they should pay them a salary and advertise the job. It stops experienced pilots from other operators being able to move positions, undermines the union, potentially introduces a negative culture and atmosphere within an operator etc.
A safety argument could perhaps be used if a person has a large amount of debt, increasing their stress and knowing they have to perform if gaining short term contracts at the end of their P2f scheme to be able to continue, clear their debts and not go bankrupt.
Regarding P2F, the CAA's should be stopping it from happening. If an airline needs a FO, they should pay them a salary and advertise the job. It stops experienced pilots from other operators being able to move positions, undermines the union, potentially introduces a negative culture and atmosphere within an operator etc.
A safety argument could perhaps be used if a person has a large amount of debt, increasing their stress and knowing they have to perform if gaining short term contracts at the end of their P2f scheme to be able to continue, clear their debts and not go bankrupt.
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Regarding Curd, some finished his type rating courses and P2F scheme via BMI, joined EZY and then got chopped. Some finished the BMI line training, thinking they would get an interview via parc for EZY to find EZY changed their requirements. Not a good feeling if you have training debts and paid for all of this.
The CAA cannot legislate against this kind of scheme, it needs to be introduced through changes in the law. There is nothing stopping anyone offering type training.
What does need to stop is the airlines accepting these schemes as a source of 'labour'. This is made more difficult when curd and the person liaising with him at ezy were best buddies since their school days.
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Happy to talk
Big number,
I would go so far as to say would be happy to talk to you on the phone about my views but thats not really the spirit of pprune. But if you really want to I can PM you my number.
Next,
In your last post you say that p2F is fun. I'm sure 99% of guys doing it are sweating because of the money they spent on it. The added stress of wether they secure employment afterwards and not just flushed another 40 odd thousand whatevers down the toilet in pursuit of the dream. If it was only cashed up super rich people doing it for a laugh then no problem. It's their money. The problem is that it's not very rich people doing it. Most will be paying it off for years. They won't be at Gordom Ramsey's recalling the experience to his/her toff mates!
As to why I hate p2F. Firstly, who came up with it? Did the pilots union think of it to give new guys a better chance of emplymont? NO. Was it a government scheme to get more guys into flying? NO. Was it thought up by an airline as means of raising revenue off desperate kids who think it's the answer? YES. It is not a recognised means of pilot training. It's a slickly advertised scheme that if you listen to the spin by the sales team they will have you thinking that they are only there to help you and the fact that you have to pay them a large amount of money is regrettable but we are not a charity you know.
I can't see how joining a golf club is the same as pay to fly. Most people go to golf clubs to have FUN. Oh but you think p2F is also FUN. You pay fee's to use the greens and equipment. No one at the golf club is promising you a job as a pro if you pay them a huge sum of money.
As for the life experience I judge it by how many things you have been through and what you took away from it. Sure having kids and mortgage's is part of gaining it but you don't need to have them to have life experience. A good judge of it is how easy it is to scam someone. Guess what? The younger you are and the less time you have had experiencing the world means less life experience.
"But its the only way to get the 500 hour minimum required by most operators" I can tell you the 500 hours is only there to stop them getting flooded with 250 hour wannabee's Resume's. I can honestly say that most applicants would have more than the requirement. They have to set the bar somewhere. Where I work the minimum is 500 hours, CPL-ME-IR and rated on type. The rated on type weeds out most of the low timers but the majority of Resume's we see have much more than 500 hours (750-1500 is the norm).
When the airlines run out of Resume's then the minimums will come down. This won't happenn for a while yet. So after you guys get your 500 on type and find out the minimim just went to 750 hours on type what will you do? Pay for another 250 hours?
Sorry for the rambling nature of the post, I couldn't ref Bignumbers one while I wrote it.
I would go so far as to say would be happy to talk to you on the phone about my views but thats not really the spirit of pprune. But if you really want to I can PM you my number.
Next,
In your last post you say that p2F is fun. I'm sure 99% of guys doing it are sweating because of the money they spent on it. The added stress of wether they secure employment afterwards and not just flushed another 40 odd thousand whatevers down the toilet in pursuit of the dream. If it was only cashed up super rich people doing it for a laugh then no problem. It's their money. The problem is that it's not very rich people doing it. Most will be paying it off for years. They won't be at Gordom Ramsey's recalling the experience to his/her toff mates!
As to why I hate p2F. Firstly, who came up with it? Did the pilots union think of it to give new guys a better chance of emplymont? NO. Was it a government scheme to get more guys into flying? NO. Was it thought up by an airline as means of raising revenue off desperate kids who think it's the answer? YES. It is not a recognised means of pilot training. It's a slickly advertised scheme that if you listen to the spin by the sales team they will have you thinking that they are only there to help you and the fact that you have to pay them a large amount of money is regrettable but we are not a charity you know.
I can't see how joining a golf club is the same as pay to fly. Most people go to golf clubs to have FUN. Oh but you think p2F is also FUN. You pay fee's to use the greens and equipment. No one at the golf club is promising you a job as a pro if you pay them a huge sum of money.
As for the life experience I judge it by how many things you have been through and what you took away from it. Sure having kids and mortgage's is part of gaining it but you don't need to have them to have life experience. A good judge of it is how easy it is to scam someone. Guess what? The younger you are and the less time you have had experiencing the world means less life experience.
"But its the only way to get the 500 hour minimum required by most operators" I can tell you the 500 hours is only there to stop them getting flooded with 250 hour wannabee's Resume's. I can honestly say that most applicants would have more than the requirement. They have to set the bar somewhere. Where I work the minimum is 500 hours, CPL-ME-IR and rated on type. The rated on type weeds out most of the low timers but the majority of Resume's we see have much more than 500 hours (750-1500 is the norm).
When the airlines run out of Resume's then the minimums will come down. This won't happenn for a while yet. So after you guys get your 500 on type and find out the minimim just went to 750 hours on type what will you do? Pay for another 250 hours?
Sorry for the rambling nature of the post, I couldn't ref Bignumbers one while I wrote it.
Last edited by tarmac12; 2nd Jan 2012 at 02:26.
A golf player pays green fees to use a product or service, as does an airline PASSENGER.
A golf coach, caddie, greenskeeper, or anyone else EMPLOYED there earns an income, as does (or should) an airline pilot.
A golf coach, caddie, greenskeeper, or anyone else EMPLOYED there earns an income, as does (or should) an airline pilot.
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The reason P2F is so despised is that it is simply immoral and is destroying the nature of what once used to be a superb profession.
It is immoral because on the job training - type rating and line training - is purely the responsibility of the airline and not the pilot. To charge for this is immoral. To bribe the company to employ you in preference to someone who doesn't have a rich daddy or a house to mortgage is equally immoral.
Carry on like this and in 10 years we'll be paying for the bloody fuel too .
You P2Fs made your own bed. Lie on it, and if you don't like it go buy a job elsewhere. But stop whingeing - you volunteered for this. Caveat emptor.
It is immoral because on the job training - type rating and line training - is purely the responsibility of the airline and not the pilot. To charge for this is immoral. To bribe the company to employ you in preference to someone who doesn't have a rich daddy or a house to mortgage is equally immoral.
Carry on like this and in 10 years we'll be paying for the bloody fuel too .
You P2Fs made your own bed. Lie on it, and if you don't like it go buy a job elsewhere. But stop whingeing - you volunteered for this. Caveat emptor.
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Hi Tarmac
Firstly; Tarmac a very happy New Year to you. It's back to work for me today positioning to a northern uk base (through Victoria if you fancy a coffee?) to start my run of days on, so yes; I actually hold a licence
I wouldn't take issue with much you just posted,:-
however:-
1. No one is promised guaranteed employment following a P2F. It is what it is. A chance to have a turn at flying a modern passenger aircraft and exercise the licences held in a Commercial environment.
It will however, IMO, add to the CV and give a much better chance of gaining a job than 200 hours MEP and a spot of FI time. At least the usual 500hrs on type application criteria is now met.
2. Everyone seems focused on the assertion that holding a licence instantly implies being a professional pilot, hence the inability to identify with my analogy of the Golf Club membership. Holding a CPL does not make anyone a professional pilot. P2F is not professional flying, it is at the very best a period of training but more obviously a paid for experience to enjoy. It is not employment. It is however Fun; I would understand that you are a professional pilot ie flying for reward, do you not enjoy flying for flying sake? salarly needs asside. Not all golfers at the golf club are, or ever will turn pro. But, they can all enjoy golf and have a fun experience at the club.
3. Safety is the job of the regulator before anyone suggests that joe public are being placed in danger. Joe Public are quite happy with the subsidized airfares thankyou. P2F ers provide a valuable income stream to a struggling airline market. P2F ers hold a licence, LPC, OPC, Line Cx, and can operate just as well as anyone else but they are not pro's. Many would like to be and view the P2F as a CV boost.
Finally, responsibility for financial restraint rests with the individual. Those of us with 'life experience' know how to ballance the books and make the ends meet. I would hope that the vast majority of people would not bankrupt themselves to get a go on the P2F ride? However, if they can afford it, let them have their fun........ some might get the chance to turn pro.
I wouldn't take issue with much you just posted,:-
however:-
1. No one is promised guaranteed employment following a P2F. It is what it is. A chance to have a turn at flying a modern passenger aircraft and exercise the licences held in a Commercial environment.
It will however, IMO, add to the CV and give a much better chance of gaining a job than 200 hours MEP and a spot of FI time. At least the usual 500hrs on type application criteria is now met.
2. Everyone seems focused on the assertion that holding a licence instantly implies being a professional pilot, hence the inability to identify with my analogy of the Golf Club membership. Holding a CPL does not make anyone a professional pilot. P2F is not professional flying, it is at the very best a period of training but more obviously a paid for experience to enjoy. It is not employment. It is however Fun; I would understand that you are a professional pilot ie flying for reward, do you not enjoy flying for flying sake? salarly needs asside. Not all golfers at the golf club are, or ever will turn pro. But, they can all enjoy golf and have a fun experience at the club.
3. Safety is the job of the regulator before anyone suggests that joe public are being placed in danger. Joe Public are quite happy with the subsidized airfares thankyou. P2F ers provide a valuable income stream to a struggling airline market. P2F ers hold a licence, LPC, OPC, Line Cx, and can operate just as well as anyone else but they are not pro's. Many would like to be and view the P2F as a CV boost.
Finally, responsibility for financial restraint rests with the individual. Those of us with 'life experience' know how to ballance the books and make the ends meet. I would hope that the vast majority of people would not bankrupt themselves to get a go on the P2F ride? However, if they can afford it, let them have their fun........ some might get the chance to turn pro.
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It is however Fun; I would understand that you are a professional pilot ie flying for reward, do you not enjoy flying for flying sake? salarly needs asside.
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What you get with P2F is people who have rich parents. What you don't get is people who have the best skills and drive to be the best pilot they can be. If it's all handed to you on a plate, why would you need to be so driven? I know someone whose parents were plenty rich enough to pay for him to study full time. Even so it took him almost two years to get his writtens because, frankly, he just wasn't that bright, even though he's a nice enough chap. Anyone self funding would have had to give up long before then.
It's not dissimilar to the current situation with UK Universities. Those from a privileged background get to go, even if they're not the brightest spark. Those from less privileged backgrounds may go, but leave with crippling debt that for the long term leaves them on the back foot. Then there are those who are genuinely smart, with incredible aptitude, who just plain and simple can't raise £50k - £100k just like that. I would rather hire someone who really wanted it in their bones and was really skilled and knows how to work hard.
Seems the airlines would choose quantity (of spare cash) over quality...
It's not dissimilar to the current situation with UK Universities. Those from a privileged background get to go, even if they're not the brightest spark. Those from less privileged backgrounds may go, but leave with crippling debt that for the long term leaves them on the back foot. Then there are those who are genuinely smart, with incredible aptitude, who just plain and simple can't raise £50k - £100k just like that. I would rather hire someone who really wanted it in their bones and was really skilled and knows how to work hard.
Seems the airlines would choose quantity (of spare cash) over quality...
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Big Number, you make a reasonable and balanced argument, however, I understand curds original rhetoric has been toned down. Maybe he has learnt his lesson.
I understand his advertising stated:
Evidently those several airlines failed to materialise and easyjet was never one of them. In short curd is a snake-oil salesman, focussed on financial gain and when his P2F efforts fail to produce results he will look elsewhere.
I agree with your other assertions, but would add the caveat that people considering such schemes be fully aware of what they are signing up to and the debate here may encourage them to think likewise.
1. No one is promised guaranteed employment following a P2F. It is what it is. A chance to have a turn at flying a modern passenger aircraft and exercise the licences held in a Commercial environment.
Once you have been trained, YOU will be a high quality commodity and we have several airlines waiting to sign you up as a direct entry First Officer with full salary and benefits.
I agree with your other assertions, but would add the caveat that people considering such schemes be fully aware of what they are signing up to and the debate here may encourage them to think likewise.
