Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)
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Saint - you are right that we are stuck with this. A meritocracy is in general an illusion and certainly the systems of the RAF and BA would fall into that category. As we all know, life is a game of Snakes and Ladders - I have gone up ladders and down snakes on numerous occasions and fairness, alas, did not enter into it. I am only too aware that is the grace of God that has given me the opporunities I now have, and there are others who are every bit as able as I am (such as that is!) who are in a career nowhere land.
G.S. Willy - that is simply not correct. The only real change from previous CTC schemes is that an input is required for the Type Rating. Previous CTC cadets got £1000/month for 6 months but did get a permanent job eventually. I do not like it any more than anyone else, but is simply not true to say it is a p2f scheme along the lines of Eagle Jet's.
underread east - I have not made myself clear. The £20/block hour is not in addition to the £34k. If you have the £34k up front that is the end of the matter. If you do not have it, then a system exists whereby the company pays a chunk of type rating for you and you pay them back via the £20/block hour flown. I hope that is more clear - my apologies.
Clanger 32 - Hi again! I would have to check the fine detail of the OAA contract but it nonetheless is essentially a payment system as a contract pilot. I do not like it, but as we have discussed previously it is really the only way to a real job right now. As I have indicated earlier in the thread, there are now many people getting permanent jobs and that can only be a good thing. Therefore it is absolutely not a scheme of the type offered by Eagle Jet. I am aware as I write this that I am seeming to be an advocate of this scheme - I most definitely am not. I am, nonetheless, keen that all sides of the story are written and that people see that it is not all bad news. Best of luck.
G.S. Willy - that is simply not correct. The only real change from previous CTC schemes is that an input is required for the Type Rating. Previous CTC cadets got £1000/month for 6 months but did get a permanent job eventually. I do not like it any more than anyone else, but is simply not true to say it is a p2f scheme along the lines of Eagle Jet's.
underread east - I have not made myself clear. The £20/block hour is not in addition to the £34k. If you have the £34k up front that is the end of the matter. If you do not have it, then a system exists whereby the company pays a chunk of type rating for you and you pay them back via the £20/block hour flown. I hope that is more clear - my apologies.
Clanger 32 - Hi again! I would have to check the fine detail of the OAA contract but it nonetheless is essentially a payment system as a contract pilot. I do not like it, but as we have discussed previously it is really the only way to a real job right now. As I have indicated earlier in the thread, there are now many people getting permanent jobs and that can only be a good thing. Therefore it is absolutely not a scheme of the type offered by Eagle Jet. I am aware as I write this that I am seeming to be an advocate of this scheme - I most definitely am not. I am, nonetheless, keen that all sides of the story are written and that people see that it is not all bad news. Best of luck.
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the thing is Norman, there *ARE* JAA approved A320 type rating courses available in the EU at under 20,000Euros and that is a one off cost without implementing the buying power of a large number of scheduled commitments.
so if the cost of the TR through EZ's scheme with OAA is 34K UK pounds, then there is a lot of money gone adrift there.
Now, i don't consider that EZ's fiscal management is that bad they are getting screwed badly on a TR cost; It's a free market and EZ are free to shop sim providers for the best price.
So the argument that the guys are getting paid is just disingenuous really. The *considerably* over the market rate that candidates are having to stump for the TR can equally be considered that they are 'loaning' EZ money and being repaid that loan; Or it could also be considered that the additional cost they are paying is the cost of *salary* [sic] that they will be getting paid.
All this for a short term contract, on the hope that they may get offered a regular position.
out of what quantity of fleixcrew pilots on the books ?
37 pilots,
38 pilots
50 pilots
100 pilots
1,000 pilots.
it's all relative.
Look, I'm not being a dick here NSF, but really if barks like a dog, walks like a dog, licks its balls like a dog, then, likewise, if you are paying over double the available market rate for something and getting paid *some* of that balance back over a given term and have no permanent commitment or position and its for a given short term period, on the hope that you *may* be offered one, well then.. it's a dog.
so if the cost of the TR through EZ's scheme with OAA is 34K UK pounds, then there is a lot of money gone adrift there.
Now, i don't consider that EZ's fiscal management is that bad they are getting screwed badly on a TR cost; It's a free market and EZ are free to shop sim providers for the best price.
So the argument that the guys are getting paid is just disingenuous really. The *considerably* over the market rate that candidates are having to stump for the TR can equally be considered that they are 'loaning' EZ money and being repaid that loan; Or it could also be considered that the additional cost they are paying is the cost of *salary* [sic] that they will be getting paid.
All this for a short term contract, on the hope that they may get offered a regular position.
Also, we have sent out permanent offers of employment to 37 flexicrew pilots
37 pilots,
38 pilots
50 pilots
100 pilots
1,000 pilots.
it's all relative.
Look, I'm not being a dick here NSF, but really if barks like a dog, walks like a dog, licks its balls like a dog, then, likewise, if you are paying over double the available market rate for something and getting paid *some* of that balance back over a given term and have no permanent commitment or position and its for a given short term period, on the hope that you *may* be offered one, well then.. it's a dog.
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We are not stuck with this!
As long as the likes of NSF (experienced EJ Capt) and Saint (experienced GA pilot), believe we are stuck with P2F and other hybrid schemes it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy and the HR/Payscale/Mgt teams will continue to rub their hands with glee.
The fact is pilot recruitment is finally beginning to move in a postive manner. With Emirates looking for 200 this year and 500 next, Virgin opening interview doors again by end of 2010, Jet2 trawling for all levels of experience, Air Berlin expanding. Now is the time to say NO to these "deals".
BALPA needs to wake up (it is for its members to rise up and demand investigations), the CAA UK needs information on all such schemes and the concerns of Line and Training Pilots (They issue Operating Certificates). This is as serious as as FTLs. Financial worries, poor sleeping accomodation, low self esteem have no place in the cockpit (see: US Q400 Colgan crash). FOs need to be viewed as potential Captains not RHS warmers.
The fact is pilot recruitment is finally beginning to move in a postive manner. With Emirates looking for 200 this year and 500 next, Virgin opening interview doors again by end of 2010, Jet2 trawling for all levels of experience, Air Berlin expanding. Now is the time to say NO to these "deals".
BALPA needs to wake up (it is for its members to rise up and demand investigations), the CAA UK needs information on all such schemes and the concerns of Line and Training Pilots (They issue Operating Certificates). This is as serious as as FTLs. Financial worries, poor sleeping accomodation, low self esteem have no place in the cockpit (see: US Q400 Colgan crash). FOs need to be viewed as potential Captains not RHS warmers.
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Bruce Wayne - I tend to agree with you. This is a dog, but it is not a wolf! I am not going to justify the unjustifyable - I have huge reservations about aspects of this deal. It is, nonetheless, not a p2f deal and it is likely, eventually, to lead to permanent employment with easyJet. As importantly, it is the only way of getting permanent employment with easyJet for the foreseeable future. You have to weigh it up, do the sums and see if you can deal with it. I do not agree with it, but that is the way it is at the moment.
angelorange - I am not saying we are stuck with this. I am, however, saying that at the moment this is the deal that exists. I do not like it, but that is frankly irrelevant. I see a 2-pronged approach - make this deal as good as we can while it is what is on the table, but fight behind the scenes to get it changed. The honest truth is that market forces are what will change this situation and that is what is happening right now. I will be delighted if 300 easyJet pilots resign next month - that will have an enormous impact on our terms and conditions. I have to say that I do not believe that will happen, and for all its faults, easyJet remains among the best of what is on offer. Time will tell, and I will be delighted to be proven wrong but from where I sit we have an almost infinite supply of willing volunteers to take the place of the more experienced FOs who will leave and are willing to work for significantly less than the people they are replacing. If we run short of promotable FOs (and I do not think we will), then we will recruit DECs as we always have done. Harsh assessment, but that is how I see it.
angelorange - I am not saying we are stuck with this. I am, however, saying that at the moment this is the deal that exists. I do not like it, but that is frankly irrelevant. I see a 2-pronged approach - make this deal as good as we can while it is what is on the table, but fight behind the scenes to get it changed. The honest truth is that market forces are what will change this situation and that is what is happening right now. I will be delighted if 300 easyJet pilots resign next month - that will have an enormous impact on our terms and conditions. I have to say that I do not believe that will happen, and for all its faults, easyJet remains among the best of what is on offer. Time will tell, and I will be delighted to be proven wrong but from where I sit we have an almost infinite supply of willing volunteers to take the place of the more experienced FOs who will leave and are willing to work for significantly less than the people they are replacing. If we run short of promotable FOs (and I do not think we will), then we will recruit DECs as we always have done. Harsh assessment, but that is how I see it.
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I might be slightly og topic. But OAA and Jonathan Curd with his a320typerating are offering an 320 typerating with 150 hours linetraning trough BMI for 35000 pounds. Many that have done this course are getting on the flexicrew contract with Easy and are being offered permanent contracts. My I ask what the difference is between this guys and the guys coming directly from OAA. They are paying the same amount of money!!!
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I just notice on the IPA (Independent Pilots Association) Welcome to the IPA website (members area unfortunately).
P2F - Pay to Fly schemes
Members have raised concerns with the IPA about pay to fly schemes where someone pays a training organisation a considerable sum of money for a training course for a licence that includes an amount of line flying with an operator.
We share those concerns and recently wrote to the CAA but the answer we received was predictable in as much that the CAA said the individuals involved were all intelligent and knew what they were getting into, flight safety is unlikely to be affected because there are requirements on an operator and an individual to ensure that a pilot does not operate when fatigued or ill, etc etc - you can imagine the rest.
We would like more information to be able to put a case to the CAA refuting their claims and also to make an approach to the Government. If you have experience of P2F please get in touch with Naomi Collier in the office, your annonimity will be protected and not passed beyond the Association.
Members have raised concerns with the IPA about pay to fly schemes where someone pays a training organisation a considerable sum of money for a training course for a licence that includes an amount of line flying with an operator.
We share those concerns and recently wrote to the CAA but the answer we received was predictable in as much that the CAA said the individuals involved were all intelligent and knew what they were getting into, flight safety is unlikely to be affected because there are requirements on an operator and an individual to ensure that a pilot does not operate when fatigued or ill, etc etc - you can imagine the rest.
We would like more information to be able to put a case to the CAA refuting their claims and also to make an approach to the Government. If you have experience of P2F please get in touch with Naomi Collier in the office, your annonimity will be protected and not passed beyond the Association.
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Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)
Curds at it again. Rumour has it this time its with Atlas Jet in Turkey, though you could go direct and avoid the middle 'man'.
No need to register on the website for further information, of which there is little or no content anyway. Not even the price. For those wishing to peruse the site click here
Given his reputation, this is fast becoming the Del-Boy of aviation.
Last edited by shagrat; 18th Jan 2012 at 16:50. Reason: clarification
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Funny enough, I was just saying in an other thread the pay to work scam is a booming activity.
And nowadays more and more people cannot find any problem with it.
Soon we will have to wonder who has the most expensive ticket, the passenger or the F/O?
It's sad, really sad.
And nowadays more and more people cannot find any problem with it.
Soon we will have to wonder who has the most expensive ticket, the passenger or the F/O?
It's sad, really sad.
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I think the reason that ever fewer people take issue with P2F is that there isn't one!
P2F is now the norm; and will continue to be.
Every cloud....................................
P2F is now the norm; and will continue to be.
Every cloud....................................
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What?
Bignumber,
P2f is only becoming the norm now because newbee's think that it's the only way to get employment in a downturn. The number of P2f guys that get jobs at the end is probably the same as the number who get a job staight out of flying school.
These forums are littered with P2f people who have paid the money, did the 500 hours and are now still unemployed. This would lead me to believe that the only people who do it are either,
Desperate with cash,
Desperate with no cash but can get someone to guarantee another loan,
Unable to get a job as they don't have the right stuff or too bloody impatient to wait it out until the economy improves or just get sucked in by people who believe your crap that it's now the only way to get a job!
Go spread your message somewhere else.
P2f is only becoming the norm now because newbee's think that it's the only way to get employment in a downturn. The number of P2f guys that get jobs at the end is probably the same as the number who get a job staight out of flying school.
These forums are littered with P2f people who have paid the money, did the 500 hours and are now still unemployed. This would lead me to believe that the only people who do it are either,
Desperate with cash,
Desperate with no cash but can get someone to guarantee another loan,
Unable to get a job as they don't have the right stuff or too bloody impatient to wait it out until the economy improves or just get sucked in by people who believe your crap that it's now the only way to get a job!
Go spread your message somewhere else.
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Well said Tarmac.
I don't openly take issue with P2F anymore because it is not my money. If someone thinks it is the best for them, then go ahead. I personally think it is foolish to spend that kind of money on line training. I also think it is quite ridiculous to buy a type rating without a job guarantee. I get about one private message a week from individuals asking me were they can get a type rating for cheap since I mentioned once that I know of a place, however I have stopped responding to those types of PMs.
And P2F is definitely not the norm. I have yet to meet anyone personally who has done P2F and received a job (at least I haven't met anyone who admitted it). In fact, I never met anyone in person who was seriously interested in doing P2F. If it were not for the nobs on this site, I would not have even known about most of these p2f schemes.
In reality, I don't think p2f is as common as this forum makes it appear to be. All the folks that I know who got a jet job were either flight instructors, got lucky through Ryanair, did bush flying, prior military, or skydive pilots. Most of these got hired by knowing somebody or being in the right place at the right time.
I think the reason that ever fewer people take issue with P2F is that there isn't one!
P2F is now the norm; and will continue to be.
P2F is now the norm; and will continue to be.
And P2F is definitely not the norm. I have yet to meet anyone personally who has done P2F and received a job (at least I haven't met anyone who admitted it). In fact, I never met anyone in person who was seriously interested in doing P2F. If it were not for the nobs on this site, I would not have even known about most of these p2f schemes.
In reality, I don't think p2f is as common as this forum makes it appear to be. All the folks that I know who got a jet job were either flight instructors, got lucky through Ryanair, did bush flying, prior military, or skydive pilots. Most of these got hired by knowing somebody or being in the right place at the right time.
Last edited by zondaracer; 29th Dec 2011 at 16:10.
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I agree with zondaracer 'In reality, I don't think p2f is as common as this forum makes it appear to be. All the folks that I know who got a jet job were either flight instructors, got lucky through Ryanair, did bush flying, prior military, or skydive pilots. Most of these got hired by knowing somebody or being in the right place at the right time.'
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What Twaddle!!
Just look at the headline banners here on PPRUNE; plenty of opportunities for a nice bit of P2F!
Rightly so; it looks like fun to me. If one can gain access to the ready's then anyone can jump straight into the cockpit of a A320 or 737.
Curd knows this and provides a valuable link to realise a dream for countless Wannabes. Why knock it? Everyones having fun. Why be a kill joy?
Better still; the public continue to enjoy subsidized airfares courtesy of our pool of punters. MOL stated some time ago that he would drive pilot salaries down to that of bus drivers; he's achieved even greater!! Bus drivers wouldn't pay for the chance to beg for a job! MOL charges for his interview process and I think it's great!
Just look at the headline banners here on PPRUNE; plenty of opportunities for a nice bit of P2F!
Rightly so; it looks like fun to me. If one can gain access to the ready's then anyone can jump straight into the cockpit of a A320 or 737.
Curd knows this and provides a valuable link to realise a dream for countless Wannabes. Why knock it? Everyones having fun. Why be a kill joy?
Better still; the public continue to enjoy subsidized airfares courtesy of our pool of punters. MOL stated some time ago that he would drive pilot salaries down to that of bus drivers; he's achieved even greater!! Bus drivers wouldn't pay for the chance to beg for a job! MOL charges for his interview process and I think it's great!
Last edited by BigNumber; 29th Dec 2011 at 18:07.
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A lot of money is involved with "pay to work".
More and more pilots are involved and it is not clear who exactly and how many persons get the money at the end. Some weird stories between the HR and flight department of the companies involved probabely... Pay to fly looks like corruption.
If no F/O: no flight possible, the pilot paying to work (yes paying to work, not for a type rating, not for touch and goes...) with paying passengers on board is shooting himself dead when nobody forced him.
In some countries it wouldn't even be legal according to the labour law.
The airlines involved might speak about "training" or something similar to justify themselves avoid troubles and stay hidden. Thing is that when you have paying passengers and you are asked by dispatch to do the flight to carry those passengers, there is no way to pay for it. It's so obvious that it's incredible that in 2011 we have to explain it.
However the airlines involved, the scam organizations advertizing and the pilots themselves are not going to complain to any international court... For now. But I can see the thing happening one day or another... Who knows...
The sad thing is that us, experienced pilots, and moderators/old pprune posters here gave up it seems.
No it's not the norm. But even if it was, it would be even more sad and it would still be wrong.
Let's not give up. Allowing those scams takes the job and salaries from some pilots to give a paying ticket to some others (or the same ones), it's not creating any job, it's not helping anything, more money is spent illegaly (stolen from the pilot community if there is one), and the whole profession is ashamed. Only some scam organizations and bad HRs are taking advantage of it. Wake up!
My fellow ppruners, please don't give up and explain your viewpoint for the ones still confused who beleives it creates jobs. Explain that Aviation is not about short cut, bad decisions, but about integrity and enjoying the travel more than the destination.
Cheers.
Link: http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/4446...et-pprune.html
More and more pilots are involved and it is not clear who exactly and how many persons get the money at the end. Some weird stories between the HR and flight department of the companies involved probabely... Pay to fly looks like corruption.
If no F/O: no flight possible, the pilot paying to work (yes paying to work, not for a type rating, not for touch and goes...) with paying passengers on board is shooting himself dead when nobody forced him.
In some countries it wouldn't even be legal according to the labour law.
The airlines involved might speak about "training" or something similar to justify themselves avoid troubles and stay hidden. Thing is that when you have paying passengers and you are asked by dispatch to do the flight to carry those passengers, there is no way to pay for it. It's so obvious that it's incredible that in 2011 we have to explain it.
However the airlines involved, the scam organizations advertizing and the pilots themselves are not going to complain to any international court... For now. But I can see the thing happening one day or another... Who knows...
The sad thing is that us, experienced pilots, and moderators/old pprune posters here gave up it seems.
No it's not the norm. But even if it was, it would be even more sad and it would still be wrong.
Let's not give up. Allowing those scams takes the job and salaries from some pilots to give a paying ticket to some others (or the same ones), it's not creating any job, it's not helping anything, more money is spent illegaly (stolen from the pilot community if there is one), and the whole profession is ashamed. Only some scam organizations and bad HRs are taking advantage of it. Wake up!
My fellow ppruners, please don't give up and explain your viewpoint for the ones still confused who beleives it creates jobs. Explain that Aviation is not about short cut, bad decisions, but about integrity and enjoying the travel more than the destination.
Cheers.
Link: http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/4446...et-pprune.html
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P2F is common, very common. I've seen the lists of type rated pilots lining up to get their chance. If you have not been unfortunate enough to be in the system during the last 3-4 years I would politely ask you to keep your mouths closed because you have no idea. It's been nothing but pain and hardship trying to avoid the evil that is P2F. In fact, it's due of my thankless morals 3 years ago that I didn't get a jet job sooner (sorry if that hurts you, but for some of us it’s a jet job or no job because that’s the only thing that will bring food on the table, enabling me to pay a £800 mortgage and raise a young family). The guys who did Curd’s P2F at the time are today on perm contracts and heading for their commands taking home upwards of £80k pa.
If you have undergone modular training in the last 3-4 years, unless you got lucky with Ryanair (Which is obviously not "P2F"
), chances are you are still looking for your first flying job. Traditionally some other UK carriers have taken on a handful of modular trained goes every 6 months but with the recession that’s not been possible. In the UK for newbies, unless you’re an Oxford or CTC git you have no chance except with Ryanair. Just look at the cozy relationships between these flights schools and the biggest recruiting airlines in the UK, lowly modular guys like us have no chance. You’ll sometimes here from people “there are jobs”. Of course there are! but that is a silly thing to say given current unemployed pilot statistics.
On the subject of Atlas Jet. Desperate people continue to queue up which has caused them to become out of control with their pricing. A whole bunch of guys went out there having paid €30,000 but were told there was a new Turkish “Government” tax of around €10k and only broke this news to guys and gals after doing the sim check. Just ask the pilots with the other airline doing line training in Turkey if they are paying this (the answer is a big no).
If you have undergone modular training in the last 3-4 years, unless you got lucky with Ryanair (Which is obviously not "P2F"
), chances are you are still looking for your first flying job. Traditionally some other UK carriers have taken on a handful of modular trained goes every 6 months but with the recession that’s not been possible. In the UK for newbies, unless you’re an Oxford or CTC git you have no chance except with Ryanair. Just look at the cozy relationships between these flights schools and the biggest recruiting airlines in the UK, lowly modular guys like us have no chance. You’ll sometimes here from people “there are jobs”. Of course there are! but that is a silly thing to say given current unemployed pilot statistics.On the subject of Atlas Jet. Desperate people continue to queue up which has caused them to become out of control with their pricing. A whole bunch of guys went out there having paid €30,000 but were told there was a new Turkish “Government” tax of around €10k and only broke this news to guys and gals after doing the sim check. Just ask the pilots with the other airline doing line training in Turkey if they are paying this (the answer is a big no).
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So, what are you saying? A clear viewpoint (go for it or not?) on the phenomenon would be welcomed coming from an older poster like you, especially for the ones, the thousands ones now that have to take a decision.
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What super pilot said is correct this is just the way things are at the moment. The p2f is always a high risk gamble with no guarantee of a job .But i do think that it should help you to find a job with 500 hours on a320 and 1000 hours total .You all know it's a expensive gamble best of luck 