Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Betty Ford's
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nothing will change, those rich enough will take the fast route to the RHS of a Boeing or Airbus, those that dont will have to try other means. Sadly, with the increasing costs and money up front for type ratings, its harder to find alternate routes, unless you have the money.
People need to make money and with recruitment agencies getting in on the act, and cutting deals, then we all will become slaves to them.
Sad fact is we have no one trying to look after our interests as pilots, Balpa look after BA staff, CAA not interested and so we are all on our own.
So i think stop belly aching and and either go with the flow or find another job.Its not going to change is it ?
Would listing these P2F airlines change things ? Does anyone have a list of these airlines anywhere ?
Happy New Year all, same old
different year.
People need to make money and with recruitment agencies getting in on the act, and cutting deals, then we all will become slaves to them.
Sad fact is we have no one trying to look after our interests as pilots, Balpa look after BA staff, CAA not interested and so we are all on our own.
So i think stop belly aching and and either go with the flow or find another job.Its not going to change is it ?
Would listing these P2F airlines change things ? Does anyone have a list of these airlines anywhere ?
Happy New Year all, same old
different year.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Maryland
Age: 63
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/4559...e-pilot-2.html
P2F always opens up a hornet's nest. And yet, it's often hard to define. Airlines in the States usually had higher flight time minimums to get hired but some operators would sell a block of hours to anyone wanting to occupy the right seat, often a foreign national who couldn't legally be employed. Then there's buy-a-job or buy-an-upgrade. With some commuters, there was even the possibility that one could buy a direct entry into the Captain's seat. Why not? PIC time is more valuable....How much more do I have to pay for RJ time versus turbo prop?
Then, there's Southwest. You Need a 737 type rating to get hired even though they don't officially care who pays for it or where you get it. But...everyone seems to get it at the same place; an outfit that has an "in" with the interview board.
Still, it's a pretty useless rating if you aren't flying a 737.
When the economy is down, pay for training/P2P seems to creep back when the market should dictate that it go away. But youngsters are swayed by those glossy career mags and the idea that they need to be ready for the next boom in hiring.
I expect that even though there are thousands of unemployed pilots with high time, airlines will be seeking relief from the new requirement that new hires have 1,500hrs.
P2F always opens up a hornet's nest. And yet, it's often hard to define. Airlines in the States usually had higher flight time minimums to get hired but some operators would sell a block of hours to anyone wanting to occupy the right seat, often a foreign national who couldn't legally be employed. Then there's buy-a-job or buy-an-upgrade. With some commuters, there was even the possibility that one could buy a direct entry into the Captain's seat. Why not? PIC time is more valuable....How much more do I have to pay for RJ time versus turbo prop?
Then, there's Southwest. You Need a 737 type rating to get hired even though they don't officially care who pays for it or where you get it. But...everyone seems to get it at the same place; an outfit that has an "in" with the interview board.
Still, it's a pretty useless rating if you aren't flying a 737.
When the economy is down, pay for training/P2P seems to creep back when the market should dictate that it go away. But youngsters are swayed by those glossy career mags and the idea that they need to be ready for the next boom in hiring.
I expect that even though there are thousands of unemployed pilots with high time, airlines will be seeking relief from the new requirement that new hires have 1,500hrs.
Exactly, with the amount of 250hr pilots already on the market and the number still coming through flying schools, the airlines need some way of narrowing down the amount of applicants and the hiring process.
One way of doing this is asking for a TR & 500hrs on type. They could ask for a large chunk of cash up front and train them themselves, some of them do. If there are many people applying with TR & hours though why would they? As long as these people pass the sim check etc. then it saves the airline a large amount of time, money and risk.
IF the supply of QUALITY TR'd candidates with hours dries up then things may change. This will not mean that everybody has a chance with just 250 hours though. For the airlines to start taking on these people and paying for the TR etc. things would have to change dramatically and I just can't see that happening any time soon.
I would think they would start either asking for a load of cash up front or asking for 700 maybe even 1500 hours. Whichever you choose it will cost you money.
One way of doing this is asking for a TR & 500hrs on type. They could ask for a large chunk of cash up front and train them themselves, some of them do. If there are many people applying with TR & hours though why would they? As long as these people pass the sim check etc. then it saves the airline a large amount of time, money and risk.
IF the supply of QUALITY TR'd candidates with hours dries up then things may change. This will not mean that everybody has a chance with just 250 hours though. For the airlines to start taking on these people and paying for the TR etc. things would have to change dramatically and I just can't see that happening any time soon.
I would think they would start either asking for a load of cash up front or asking for 700 maybe even 1500 hours. Whichever you choose it will cost you money.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
things would have to change dramatically and I just can't see that happening any time soon.
The more you will encourage peoples to go for it, the more pay to work scam mafia business will appear, supply (jobs) not matching demand (wannabes).
But that is how the FTO's make their money. That is how they stay is business. Do you really expect these schools to stop taking on new students because there may not be jobs at the end?
Thats a bit like asking your local butcher to try and talk people into going vegetarian.
Its up to the potential student to inform themselves and any source of income (parents etc.). This site is one of the best places for that.
Thats a bit like asking your local butcher to try and talk people into going vegetarian.
Its up to the potential student to inform themselves and any source of income (parents etc.). This site is one of the best places for that.
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Europe
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get some self respect P2F people
Guys you are completely not seeing the big picture!
Nobody likes P2F pilots! YOU are killing the industry. The resentment among the normal pilot work force is enormous.
YOU are partly responsible for the degradation of T & Cs in the industry. You take, where you can, jobs from experienced FOs (Ryanair etc..) You have no experience at all.
I personaly resent the CAA for allowing it to happen. And I think guys and girls who decided to take this avenue to the RHS should sit back and think about ones dignity and self respect! because you earn respect! You simply don't buy it! Don't admit it later on down the path. Because people like myself will never respect you!
Go get involved in the instructing, Turbo Props industry. Build hours, build experience and do what many generations of pilots have done before you. Respect them and respect yourself.
Nobody likes P2F pilots! YOU are killing the industry. The resentment among the normal pilot work force is enormous.
YOU are partly responsible for the degradation of T & Cs in the industry. You take, where you can, jobs from experienced FOs (Ryanair etc..) You have no experience at all.
I personaly resent the CAA for allowing it to happen. And I think guys and girls who decided to take this avenue to the RHS should sit back and think about ones dignity and self respect! because you earn respect! You simply don't buy it! Don't admit it later on down the path. Because people like myself will never respect you!
Go get involved in the instructing, Turbo Props industry. Build hours, build experience and do what many generations of pilots have done before you. Respect them and respect yourself.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Somewhere
Age: 41
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nobody likes P2F pilots! YOU are killing the industry. The resentment among the normal pilot work force is enormous.
YOU are partly responsible for the degradation of T & Cs in the industry. You take, where you can, jobs from experienced FOs (Ryanair etc..) You have no experience at all.
YOU are partly responsible for the degradation of T & Cs in the industry. You take, where you can, jobs from experienced FOs (Ryanair etc..) You have no experience at all.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: ****
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With respect, I believe it is the older generation that have seriosuly let down the young aspiring cadets of today. The constant degredation of T&Cs in the industry and the ridiculous training schools and TRTOs that have been set up to exploit the young.
I know several very capable people who have payed for type ratings and some even line training. Most found work through doing the line training. None of them agreed with it beforehand, none of them saw it as fair to others who couldn't afford it, none of them felt great about it. These where all good guys - not spoilt little rich kids being bought a job at all. All of them tried incredibly hard to find any work they could (by that I mean way way above and beyond what anyone would do for any other job) and eventually came to the conclusion that they had no other option. All of them would have bitten off the arm of a turboprop operator had they been offered a job, they certainly weren't desperate for jet time straight away. In fact they regretted skipping the fun and real flying of a turboprop operation. I stress again they where all very capable nice guys. It would be easier to say they where demons but it was simply not the case.
The critics of P2F are absolutely right in every point they make - it is horrendous. An absolute dispicable travesty. Perhaps though some of the critics are looking at it through the eyes of someone already with a job and they have no idea just how hard it is for those starting off in this industry.
- There are NO turboprop jobs essentially.(Or the chances of getting one are tiny)
- Several people I know have done instructors ratings (Only one has been employed, a year after doing the rating, he can expect around 300hours a year flying)
- Everyone keeps going on about instructors ratings - Surely this is only suitable for people who have an apptitude to teach? The best instructors I have met love instructing and it is not simply a stepping stone to an airliner.
- Having spent between £40k and £80k on your training the chances of getting a job are pretty much non-existant. It's a simple fact. Do you dive in deeper and get a job, or do you give up? That is the choice these guys are faced with and I believe they had no choice but to dive deeper.
P2F is a travesty - however its not the guys doing it who should be criticised, it is the companies offering initial training, the trto's, and the airlines for not ever focusing on the great potential of some of these young, very capable guys who would be an asset to any company.
You expect these young guys to stop their career before it has even started just because you have a 'moral' objection? Get real. What can they do about their situation? Sit on their backsides or go and do something about it? Its not their responsibility - it is the older generation who have not stood up for their profession and have not nurtured and looked after the young hopefulls you see today. And by the way - the first person who payed for his type rating has a lot to answer for!
I know several very capable people who have payed for type ratings and some even line training. Most found work through doing the line training. None of them agreed with it beforehand, none of them saw it as fair to others who couldn't afford it, none of them felt great about it. These where all good guys - not spoilt little rich kids being bought a job at all. All of them tried incredibly hard to find any work they could (by that I mean way way above and beyond what anyone would do for any other job) and eventually came to the conclusion that they had no other option. All of them would have bitten off the arm of a turboprop operator had they been offered a job, they certainly weren't desperate for jet time straight away. In fact they regretted skipping the fun and real flying of a turboprop operation. I stress again they where all very capable nice guys. It would be easier to say they where demons but it was simply not the case.
The critics of P2F are absolutely right in every point they make - it is horrendous. An absolute dispicable travesty. Perhaps though some of the critics are looking at it through the eyes of someone already with a job and they have no idea just how hard it is for those starting off in this industry.
- There are NO turboprop jobs essentially.(Or the chances of getting one are tiny)
- Several people I know have done instructors ratings (Only one has been employed, a year after doing the rating, he can expect around 300hours a year flying)
- Everyone keeps going on about instructors ratings - Surely this is only suitable for people who have an apptitude to teach? The best instructors I have met love instructing and it is not simply a stepping stone to an airliner.
- Having spent between £40k and £80k on your training the chances of getting a job are pretty much non-existant. It's a simple fact. Do you dive in deeper and get a job, or do you give up? That is the choice these guys are faced with and I believe they had no choice but to dive deeper.
P2F is a travesty - however its not the guys doing it who should be criticised, it is the companies offering initial training, the trto's, and the airlines for not ever focusing on the great potential of some of these young, very capable guys who would be an asset to any company.
You expect these young guys to stop their career before it has even started just because you have a 'moral' objection? Get real. What can they do about their situation? Sit on their backsides or go and do something about it? Its not their responsibility - it is the older generation who have not stood up for their profession and have not nurtured and looked after the young hopefulls you see today. And by the way - the first person who payed for his type rating has a lot to answer for!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by afro-anonymous
You have to pay to instruct, pay to get into turbo props jets etc, it's all pay pay pay to fly however you want to look @ it I think.... Oh & breaking news:a certain low cost operator is set to create around 1000 new jobs based in Europe, amongst these jobs there are said to be vacancies for pilots(who have to p2f). Good or bad news...?
There's a distinct difference between paying for a rating and paying for line training - which is paying to work. Paying for 'line training' means that you are conducting revenue earning flights for the airline, making them money, and paying to do so. You are taking the place of an FO who would begetting paid by the airline to do the same job. An FO who works for the airline. This element of directly taking somebody's job and rendering them obsolete (why pay someone to do something that others are willing to pay to do?) isn't present in paying for a type rating. Sure, it's a great shame that paying for a type rating is practically the norm now, but paying to work is really a different beast altogether.
And to answer the question... why would it be a good thing? The benefit of job creation for an economy is that it adds to the amount of people with disposable income that they can then spend in order to boost the economy. Why would a company taking vast sums off of individuals so they can create wealth for the company (responsible capitalism anyone?) by taking somebody elses paid job be a good thing? It's not a job if you're paying for it is it.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have decided to copyright the following terms
P2LS, P2SFO, P2TC, P2TRI, P2TRE, and P2FOD.
Left a few out but that my friends and colleagues is
Where the industry is heading, funny haven't seen
Many other industries adopting this stance, maybe
P2ACCOUNT and P2HR might not be so popular.
Not bitter or twisted just can't get my hands on 30k
Otherwise I would sign up for a summer job at
Butlins too.
Hi de hi
P2LS, P2SFO, P2TC, P2TRI, P2TRE, and P2FOD.
Left a few out but that my friends and colleagues is
Where the industry is heading, funny haven't seen
Many other industries adopting this stance, maybe
P2ACCOUNT and P2HR might not be so popular.
Not bitter or twisted just can't get my hands on 30k
Otherwise I would sign up for a summer job at
Butlins too.
Hi de hi
From the Land of Darwinian Anglo-Saxon Capitaism, the USA, why does P2F exist in Europe?. It has never gotten far here, yes a few, but any Chief Pilot would laugh in the face of anyone who paid to fly here. Let alone make it virtual requirement. With the exception of WN's long-standing B737 requirement, no airline does it here.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I missing something here?
It is quite possible for me to go to Brands Hatch; enjoy several laps on the track ( under track day supervision ) and, whilst there's credit on the meter, continue to have fun. It also makes me a better rider.
It does not make me a moto gp rider; I am not Barry Sheen; but I am able, by paying, able to enjoy a positive experience.
My money helps support Brands Hatch, helps create a few jobs, and supports the broader motor sport industry.
Should we all go down, pitch protest tents and wave banners?
Seems' to me the real problem is perception; P2F is exactly that. A bit of fun for those that can afford it. If it plumps a CV and leads to paid work that's super; if not, at least Rupert got the chance to use his little blue book. Frankly, as long as the wealthy off-spring of the upper middle continue to subsidize my air fares I am delighted. I continue to smile at them at 'Concorde'. Jolly Good Show.
It is quite possible for me to go to Brands Hatch; enjoy several laps on the track ( under track day supervision ) and, whilst there's credit on the meter, continue to have fun. It also makes me a better rider.
It does not make me a moto gp rider; I am not Barry Sheen; but I am able, by paying, able to enjoy a positive experience.
My money helps support Brands Hatch, helps create a few jobs, and supports the broader motor sport industry.
Should we all go down, pitch protest tents and wave banners?
Seems' to me the real problem is perception; P2F is exactly that. A bit of fun for those that can afford it. If it plumps a CV and leads to paid work that's super; if not, at least Rupert got the chance to use his little blue book. Frankly, as long as the wealthy off-spring of the upper middle continue to subsidize my air fares I am delighted. I continue to smile at them at 'Concorde'. Jolly Good Show.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BigNumber,
Clearly you are. Your analogy doesn't work. Does driving a car around a track purely for your pleasure displace somebody who is being paid to do the very same thing? Are fare paying passengers sat in the back of your sports car? Driving a car round a track is purely a thing you would do for pleasure. Acting as an FO on revenue generating flights is a job.
I'm not surprised this rot has been allowed to set in if people can't see this?
If only there was a higher barrier to entry to this industry... then maybe there would be more self respect and fewer posers paying their way to the front so they can play pilot.
Clearly you are. Your analogy doesn't work. Does driving a car around a track purely for your pleasure displace somebody who is being paid to do the very same thing? Are fare paying passengers sat in the back of your sports car? Driving a car round a track is purely a thing you would do for pleasure. Acting as an FO on revenue generating flights is a job.
I'm not surprised this rot has been allowed to set in if people can't see this?
If only there was a higher barrier to entry to this industry... then maybe there would be more self respect and fewer posers paying their way to the front so they can play pilot.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mate of mine was taken ill tonight, doctor diagnosed
Appendicitis, so my mate asked how much the surgeon
Would pay to remove them, problem is he has now been
Waiting for 3 hours and is doubled up in pain, but the
surgeon says he hasn't studied for 7 years at medical
school and a further 4 years post qualification for someone
to take the mickey, he's a professional.
But then again it's ok because even that may
become the norm if the new low cost NHS model
is implemented.
If BigNumber can name me 4 other industries
where P2WORK is the norm, I will have a bonfire
With my Professional Pilots Licence. DB.
Oops hang on maybe that bonfire is closer than I
Think
BBC News - Graduates paying to work for free
The last paragraph is interesting, and also the acceptance
by young graduates that this is ok saddens me.
It is hard work and customer service that make a company
viable, not the employees hard earned savings.
But the public demand cheaper holidays, I remember going
On holiday to Europe as a youth, aircraft were still full and
The tickets cost a sensible price, so you tell me is it the masses
Or the industry.
Thankfully Flight Safety hasn't been compromised though as the
Poor kid in the right hand seat knows he can't make a mistake and
Get chopped as he won't be able to pay the loan back.
New series Grumpy Old Pilots, now that I would pay to watch.
Appendicitis, so my mate asked how much the surgeon
Would pay to remove them, problem is he has now been
Waiting for 3 hours and is doubled up in pain, but the
surgeon says he hasn't studied for 7 years at medical
school and a further 4 years post qualification for someone
to take the mickey, he's a professional.
But then again it's ok because even that may
become the norm if the new low cost NHS model
is implemented.
If BigNumber can name me 4 other industries
where P2WORK is the norm, I will have a bonfire
With my Professional Pilots Licence. DB.
Oops hang on maybe that bonfire is closer than I
Think
BBC News - Graduates paying to work for free
The last paragraph is interesting, and also the acceptance
by young graduates that this is ok saddens me.
It is hard work and customer service that make a company
viable, not the employees hard earned savings.
But the public demand cheaper holidays, I remember going
On holiday to Europe as a youth, aircraft were still full and
The tickets cost a sensible price, so you tell me is it the masses
Or the industry.
Thankfully Flight Safety hasn't been compromised though as the
Poor kid in the right hand seat knows he can't make a mistake and
Get chopped as he won't be able to pay the loan back.
New series Grumpy Old Pilots, now that I would pay to watch.
Last edited by DoleBoy; 17th Jan 2012 at 23:00.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There would possibly be a market for paying to drive trains. There is never any shortage of willing train drivers. Yet train drivers get paid a good salary during training and an even better one after training. Not a penny has to leave the employee's pocket. Just as it should be.
Why is it only this industry? Is it just that aviation is truly the most cut-throat, ruthless, opportunist industry with CEOs such as O'Leary et al who are calling the shots? So many industries could go the way of pay to work if they really wanted to. Or is it that only pilots lack the foresight to actually pay to work?
Why is it only this industry? Is it just that aviation is truly the most cut-throat, ruthless, opportunist industry with CEOs such as O'Leary et al who are calling the shots? So many industries could go the way of pay to work if they really wanted to. Or is it that only pilots lack the foresight to actually pay to work?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The train drivers and their unions have done well to preserve the Ts and Cs of new hires. BALPA have done very little to do the same for aviation in the UK it seems.
DoleBoy,
The fact that they were talking about media placements speaks volumes and I think parallels can be drawn. A bit like for pilots, there is a large over-saturation of media graduates. I have never come across an engineering/pure science internship that you have to pay for. Engineering/proper science graduates are not so over-common and so employees will be less able to take the p*ss with things like this. Maybe it is simply coming down to a surplus of demand that is making paying to work valid. These are my thoughts at least.
DoleBoy,
The fact that they were talking about media placements speaks volumes and I think parallels can be drawn. A bit like for pilots, there is a large over-saturation of media graduates. I have never come across an engineering/pure science internship that you have to pay for. Engineering/proper science graduates are not so over-common and so employees will be less able to take the p*ss with things like this. Maybe it is simply coming down to a surplus of demand that is making paying to work valid. These are my thoughts at least.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BerksFlyer couldn't agree more lots of guys who have already
Paid a small fortune for a chance of the dream, and as is always
The case where supply outstrips demand, someone always finds
A way to filter the wheat from the chaff, sadly they have chosen
To filter the have nots over the have's.
But nobody ever promised me a pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow, so sadly for now it's join em or be beaten.
Maybe we should start up P4EVA, the solution to your crewing
Problems, all our candidates are guaranteed quality wallets with
Years of paying ability. ;-)
Paid a small fortune for a chance of the dream, and as is always
The case where supply outstrips demand, someone always finds
A way to filter the wheat from the chaff, sadly they have chosen
To filter the have nots over the have's.
But nobody ever promised me a pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow, so sadly for now it's join em or be beaten.
Maybe we should start up P4EVA, the solution to your crewing
Problems, all our candidates are guaranteed quality wallets with
Years of paying ability. ;-)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Engineering/proper science graduates are not so over-common and so employees will be less able to take the p*ss with things like this.
Any competant person, with sufficient cash and dedication can become qualified to fly a modern jet, thats not the case for most highly skilled Engineering/Science jobs etc
If only there was a higher barrier to entry to this industry
I think its disgusting, however it seems to be the only way and its not going to change.
I finished an integrated course 4 years ago. First time passes in all flight tests and 97% average on atpl theory.
In the first 3 years i only got 2 interviews, and was always sending out cv's etc.
I decided to do a jet rating recently. No ive not got rich parents, but i earn enough money with my own business, enabling me to do so.
In 6 months, ive had 4 interviews, and passed a sim check in China recently. This shows that having the rating on your licence makes you look a lot more attractive. Sitting on your ass sending out cvs hasnt done a lot of good in my opinion. Ive travelled the globe looking for it, and seems to have been more successful.
Been offered 2 other jobs out of the 4 interviews, however they want cash for line training. I draw the line at paying for the rating, hence declining the job offers.
Keeping the rating valid every 12 months is only gonna cost you an extra £200-300 then doing it in a seneca.
Im completely against p2f. Its wrong. After spending 100k getting my cpl/ir, i dont think the extra 20k is going to do much harm, trying to get you over the last hurdle.
People moan on here and say theres no jobs after going out and getting just a rating with low hours. Thats b@&£@cks. If you want the job bad enough,you'll get it, however it wont come to you
I finished an integrated course 4 years ago. First time passes in all flight tests and 97% average on atpl theory.
In the first 3 years i only got 2 interviews, and was always sending out cv's etc.
I decided to do a jet rating recently. No ive not got rich parents, but i earn enough money with my own business, enabling me to do so.
In 6 months, ive had 4 interviews, and passed a sim check in China recently. This shows that having the rating on your licence makes you look a lot more attractive. Sitting on your ass sending out cvs hasnt done a lot of good in my opinion. Ive travelled the globe looking for it, and seems to have been more successful.
Been offered 2 other jobs out of the 4 interviews, however they want cash for line training. I draw the line at paying for the rating, hence declining the job offers.
Keeping the rating valid every 12 months is only gonna cost you an extra £200-300 then doing it in a seneca.
Im completely against p2f. Its wrong. After spending 100k getting my cpl/ir, i dont think the extra 20k is going to do much harm, trying to get you over the last hurdle.
People moan on here and say theres no jobs after going out and getting just a rating with low hours. Thats b@&£@cks. If you want the job bad enough,you'll get it, however it wont come to you