Infinte Type Rated Pilots it seems!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Infinte Type Rated Pilots it seems!!
Has anybody in the know, ie employed in an airline or corporate jet company heard from their bosses that the type rated pilots tree is turning bare.
Im relatively experienced with 2600 TT including 1600 King Air turbine time in there but as Im not Boeing, Airbus or say Gulfstream type rated, nobody will give me the time of day in Europe.
It seems if you shake a tree, shed loads of type rated pilots fall out, including the low time 200 hour guy who buys his way in. When will we be returning to normality with regards to looking at experience when hiring?
Im relatively experienced with 2600 TT including 1600 King Air turbine time in there but as Im not Boeing, Airbus or say Gulfstream type rated, nobody will give me the time of day in Europe.
It seems if you shake a tree, shed loads of type rated pilots fall out, including the low time 200 hour guy who buys his way in. When will we be returning to normality with regards to looking at experience when hiring?
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the corporate atmosphere in the US there seems to be an endless supply of people either willing to buy a type rating or already has one. I find Gulfstream pilots are a nickle for two dozen and other entry-level jet aircraft (Citations and Lears) face similar problems.
The issue is now that employers have become use to not having to invest in an initial course for their crews they won't settle for anything less. "Back in the day", around 2005/2006, the company's would risk $15,000 to $50,000 depending on the aircraft to type rate new pilots. Now they just demand employees come with a rating and I can tell you from experience up until two weeks ago resumes still come in with semi-current pilots.
Until the FAA implements, very slowly implements, new training standards for non-airline entities you'll see "come typed and current" on most corporate and charter jobs.
The issue is now that employers have become use to not having to invest in an initial course for their crews they won't settle for anything less. "Back in the day", around 2005/2006, the company's would risk $15,000 to $50,000 depending on the aircraft to type rate new pilots. Now they just demand employees come with a rating and I can tell you from experience up until two weeks ago resumes still come in with semi-current pilots.
Until the FAA implements, very slowly implements, new training standards for non-airline entities you'll see "come typed and current" on most corporate and charter jobs.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sorry but probably you're looking for work only inside U.K and for a really specific job in a major airline... If i had your 2600TT king air FOR SURE, i wouldn't be unemployed... there are many job offers in turbo props around europe, just seek better for them.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trust me, I have sent emails, cv's everywhere. I have flown in Africa, Australia, US and converted to JAA, companies are just not interested unless you are type rated on jet aircraft.
Friends flying in the industry here have all told me, their companies only look at type rated or cadets through places like ctc willing to cough up.
I think for now, we just have to wait until the economy improves and business picks up like 2006/7 levels, then their will be jobs but I am not coughing up 30k to join Ryanair, thats for sure!!
It is funny though, because when things turn in the pilots favour again regarding employment, the experienced guys will offer zero loyalty to their prospective employers due to the slash and burn tactics being used now!!
Friends flying in the industry here have all told me, their companies only look at type rated or cadets through places like ctc willing to cough up.
I think for now, we just have to wait until the economy improves and business picks up like 2006/7 levels, then their will be jobs but I am not coughing up 30k to join Ryanair, thats for sure!!
It is funny though, because when things turn in the pilots favour again regarding employment, the experienced guys will offer zero loyalty to their prospective employers due to the slash and burn tactics being used now!!
Can't ever have one thread without a dig at Ryanair.
BA are in the process of recruiting, what do they require?? 500 hrs in last 12 months on either B737,A320, B757/767. Where can one get this type of flight time? Oh maybe somewhere like Ryanair!
Shake the tree, and I'll fall out. Least I'm in the tree! Paid for type rating or not, everyone pays one way or another, least most people who want to fly jets live in the now, and are not clinging onto the hope of the industry returning to the 'old days.'
As much as it annoys you that 200 hr cadets buy a type rating to proceed further in their career, the same goes for me with 2500 hr single pilot guys with hours instructing etc who think they deserve, are even capable, or automatically entitled to fly a jet just because they have some flight time.
Rant over- can't have it always so one sided.
Happy new year
BA are in the process of recruiting, what do they require?? 500 hrs in last 12 months on either B737,A320, B757/767. Where can one get this type of flight time? Oh maybe somewhere like Ryanair!
Shake the tree, and I'll fall out. Least I'm in the tree! Paid for type rating or not, everyone pays one way or another, least most people who want to fly jets live in the now, and are not clinging onto the hope of the industry returning to the 'old days.'
As much as it annoys you that 200 hr cadets buy a type rating to proceed further in their career, the same goes for me with 2500 hr single pilot guys with hours instructing etc who think they deserve, are even capable, or automatically entitled to fly a jet just because they have some flight time.
Rant over- can't have it always so one sided.
Happy new year
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VJW, forgive me, but I thought that was the point in any industry. You go do the **** jobs, earn your stripes and progress up the ladder.
I doubt very much you would want your heart surgeon buying his way into an operating theatre for open heart surgery without ever having done the meaningless thankless tasks gradually getting more difficult and laying a foundation of appreciation for what is exactly required to do your job.
Imagine lawyers paying for court time to practice on their clients without the proper understanding or experience gained in learning from their mistakes on less important decisions than say the big murder trial of an innocent man.. would you want to be one of those patients or clients
Good luck to you and your career, but there is no harm in doing a little hard work and earning your way in like the rest of us. Safety and experience is not to be ignored in aviation. It is not the god given right of bean counters to decide who flies and who does not.
Imagine the general public actually had an understanding of what happens in the airline industry today, they would be horrified!!
I doubt very much you would want your heart surgeon buying his way into an operating theatre for open heart surgery without ever having done the meaningless thankless tasks gradually getting more difficult and laying a foundation of appreciation for what is exactly required to do your job.
Imagine lawyers paying for court time to practice on their clients without the proper understanding or experience gained in learning from their mistakes on less important decisions than say the big murder trial of an innocent man.. would you want to be one of those patients or clients
Good luck to you and your career, but there is no harm in doing a little hard work and earning your way in like the rest of us. Safety and experience is not to be ignored in aviation. It is not the god given right of bean counters to decide who flies and who does not.
Imagine the general public actually had an understanding of what happens in the airline industry today, they would be horrified!!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Horrified perhaps, but the question is would they care?. Probably not. All the public care about is getting a cheap seat for their bucket and spade trip. As long as its cheap as chips and runs on time then theyre happy. Harsh but true.
Hey man, I'm not knocking your thought process - but you're thought process is out of date as much as we all hate to say it. You almost suggest that people paying for their type rating are off the street, and haven't studied ATPL's along with completing a CPL, IR and a MCC.
Why does your KingAir experience automatically help you fly a 737? A 200 fresh CPL IR holder is just as likely to succeed during a type rating than you with your 2500 KingAir experience. Proven, whether you like it not by the fact it currently happens.
Remind me how many total haul losses that Easy or RYR has ever had due to lack of pilot competence and/or experience? Answer none! System works fine, just a shame its an employers market and not employees market right now. For you to say you are better because you have some KingAir experience simply isn't true.
'It is not the god given right of bean counters to decide who flies and who does not.' If by bean counters you mean the those working within the airlines, then yes it is ENTIRELY up to them who can apply and who cannot.
Why does your KingAir experience automatically help you fly a 737? A 200 fresh CPL IR holder is just as likely to succeed during a type rating than you with your 2500 KingAir experience. Proven, whether you like it not by the fact it currently happens.
Remind me how many total haul losses that Easy or RYR has ever had due to lack of pilot competence and/or experience? Answer none! System works fine, just a shame its an employers market and not employees market right now. For you to say you are better because you have some KingAir experience simply isn't true.
'It is not the god given right of bean counters to decide who flies and who does not.' If by bean counters you mean the those working within the airlines, then yes it is ENTIRELY up to them who can apply and who cannot.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VJW, I dont think Im a better pilot than say a cadet, they could be naturally very gifted. I just think that it is a shame people can buy their way in without ever working for it. Experience still counts for something.
Bean counters dont have the right to decide who flies and who does not, based on a finacial decision. By law, safety theoretically should always come first and that comes with experience.
Anyway, it is off topic, the original point was are we running out of type rated guys... hopefully yes!!
Bean counters dont have the right to decide who flies and who does not, based on a finacial decision. By law, safety theoretically should always come first and that comes with experience.
Anyway, it is off topic, the original point was are we running out of type rated guys... hopefully yes!!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dry bar
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Remind me how many total haul losses that Easy or RYR has ever had due to lack of pilot competence and/or experience? Answer none!
People like VJW are desperate to escape the shackles and move on to a proper job in the airlines.
Let us know when BA come knocking on your door VJW.
Not really off topic at all, you're main gripe is with people paying for a type rating.
Nobody buys their way in without ever working for it. I paid a type rating, and worked very hard up until that time and EVEN during and after the type rating course. Paying for a type rating course, doesn't mean you simply pay an examiner to stamp you're licence, so please stop insinuating that it does!
You are also missing my point. You seem to think that because you've been flying a KingAir you are automatically going to be more safe having passed a 737 type rating course, then a guy out of flight training, unless of course they are naturally gifted! Again this is not really true.
If I was flying with you or a cadet fresh from flight school on the 737 and the sh*t hit the fan, who would I prefer to be sat next too? Toss a coin, it'd make no difference.
Nobody buys their way in without ever working for it. I paid a type rating, and worked very hard up until that time and EVEN during and after the type rating course. Paying for a type rating course, doesn't mean you simply pay an examiner to stamp you're licence, so please stop insinuating that it does!
You are also missing my point. You seem to think that because you've been flying a KingAir you are automatically going to be more safe having passed a 737 type rating course, then a guy out of flight training, unless of course they are naturally gifted! Again this is not really true.
If I was flying with you or a cadet fresh from flight school on the 737 and the sh*t hit the fan, who would I prefer to be sat next too? Toss a coin, it'd make no difference.
How is it arrogant if it's a fact?
My long term plans aren't in Europe or UK and/or BA, my wife is American, so hoping to eventually go there. Going BA and waiting 10 years for an upgrade doesn't sound appealing if I'm honest.
My long term plans aren't in Europe or UK and/or BA, my wife is American, so hoping to eventually go there. Going BA and waiting 10 years for an upgrade doesn't sound appealing if I'm honest.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dry bar
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are also missing my point. You seem to think that because you've been flying a KingAir you are automatically going to be more safe having passed a 737 type rating course, then a guy out of flight training, unless of course they are naturally gifted! Again this is not really true.
I'll bet the author of this thread could fly his King Air whilst wiping your arse in the process.
If I was flying with you or a cadet fresh from flight school on the 737 and the sh*t hit the fan, who would I prefer to be sat next too? Toss a coin, it'd make no difference.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dry bar
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Going BA and waiting 10 years for an upgrade doesn't sound appealing if I'm honest.
You automatically assume that a command is a given right and that you don't want to wait for it. The same I suppose applies to your leg up into a RYR 737?
This is the type of character I'd hate to sit next too, and probably extremely common in BA.
Remind me the last time BA hired someone with experience close to what bokboy22 has, as a FO they then bonded onto a course?? Don't tell me that's how you gain experience, when you're airline is known for never accepting a guy in bokboy22's position, or a modular student from flight school. When they did hire cadets its was the very people you just described off the OAT conveyor belt, and now they're looking for guys with time on type? I should start querying whether you're a professional pilot.
Insult me all you want, but while the bokboy22 is wiping my a$$ flying his kingair, it still isn't helping him apply to the airline you work for!
Proper job, not for me.
PS Definitely not an OAT student (apart from the MCC at the end)- I was self funded modular.
Remind me the last time BA hired someone with experience close to what bokboy22 has, as a FO they then bonded onto a course?? Don't tell me that's how you gain experience, when you're airline is known for never accepting a guy in bokboy22's position, or a modular student from flight school. When they did hire cadets its was the very people you just described off the OAT conveyor belt, and now they're looking for guys with time on type? I should start querying whether you're a professional pilot.
Insult me all you want, but while the bokboy22 is wiping my a$$ flying his kingair, it still isn't helping him apply to the airline you work for!
Proper job, not for me.
PS Definitely not an OAT student (apart from the MCC at the end)- I was self funded modular.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shaun Ryder, I for one as the writer of this thread am glad you get what Im saying here. Experience counts for everything, especially in aviation.
My days of charter in singles, twin pistons, King Airs etc taught me invaluable lessons especially when it comes to the decision making process.
There is nothing like putting your own neck on the line in a twin piston IFR flight with thunderstorms heading your way to really make you think what is the best option here.
I for one am glad I got to experience all of that as it really made me appreciate just what we actually do for a living.
My days of charter in singles, twin pistons, King Airs etc taught me invaluable lessons especially when it comes to the decision making process.
There is nothing like putting your own neck on the line in a twin piston IFR flight with thunderstorms heading your way to really make you think what is the best option here.
I for one am glad I got to experience all of that as it really made me appreciate just what we actually do for a living.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree, experience is key. I worked my way through flying air cargo on a Cessna 206 and Chieftain until I got a lucky break with a Citation. What I learned and the problems I faced while trudging through weather in mountainous terrain sculpted the thought processes I used on jets. An initial training course and all the sim sessions in the world can't teach you what to do when your deadlines are running tight, weather is down, and you find a problem with the plane that may or may not be deferred.
I spent some time working for a company that contracted maintenance to airlines and when dealing with the "cracker jack pilots" at the regionals the experienced mechanics would groan. The pilots often lacked the ability to be independent decisions as a crew and would defer PIC decisions to pilot management, union personnel, and maintenance control. In the corporate world those pilots would be eaten alive.
There is something to be said for having to make your own life and death decisions without being able to defer those decisions to a higher up. It hardens your resolve and sharpens your judgment. You can't ever teach those sort of things, but that's what I look for in a pilot. When look to hire a pilot to act as PIC (or SIC even since I eventually want SIC's to be PIC's) I would take someone with 2500 hours hard King Air time versus a 737 rated 800 hour pilot and I have done so many times in the past.
Stick flying accounts for only 10% of what it takes to fly a jet, 90% is judgment and general experiences.
I spent some time working for a company that contracted maintenance to airlines and when dealing with the "cracker jack pilots" at the regionals the experienced mechanics would groan. The pilots often lacked the ability to be independent decisions as a crew and would defer PIC decisions to pilot management, union personnel, and maintenance control. In the corporate world those pilots would be eaten alive.
There is something to be said for having to make your own life and death decisions without being able to defer those decisions to a higher up. It hardens your resolve and sharpens your judgment. You can't ever teach those sort of things, but that's what I look for in a pilot. When look to hire a pilot to act as PIC (or SIC even since I eventually want SIC's to be PIC's) I would take someone with 2500 hours hard King Air time versus a 737 rated 800 hour pilot and I have done so many times in the past.
Stick flying accounts for only 10% of what it takes to fly a jet, 90% is judgment and general experiences.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: somewhere on this planet
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
these posts prove my point that you are all a bunch of frustrated pilots...YES you are: Bitter, angry, whatever, you are all the same...
what do I read? the guy on King Air not happy to fly, want be on 737.
the guys on 737 switching A/P, not happy, want be captain.
The captains on 737 want be on 747....
Type rated: unhappy, not type rated: unhappy. Integrated: unhappy, modular: unhappy...
and at the end, captains 747, whining, because their retirements are coming, and still they are not happy with all the money they have saved.Blaming their 4 wives (ex hostess), and numerous (unofficial)kids they still have to support.
My God, guys, get a life! get happy with you life or you will regret it!
look at what you have, and not at what you don't have!
what do I read? the guy on King Air not happy to fly, want be on 737.
the guys on 737 switching A/P, not happy, want be captain.
The captains on 737 want be on 747....
Type rated: unhappy, not type rated: unhappy. Integrated: unhappy, modular: unhappy...
and at the end, captains 747, whining, because their retirements are coming, and still they are not happy with all the money they have saved.Blaming their 4 wives (ex hostess), and numerous (unofficial)kids they still have to support.
My God, guys, get a life! get happy with you life or you will regret it!
look at what you have, and not at what you don't have!
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tamworth, UK / Nairobi, Kenya
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Im relatively experienced with 2600 TT including 1600 King Air turbine time
2600 hours is NOT relative experienced, if you were working for an accounting firm, you might still be on probation with 2600 hours accounting experience. Especially since the first 250 or so were your training, which for an accountant took FOUR YEARS at university. Based on that, you're still a sophmore at school.
I, for one, am not comfortable when I find out that the two pilots in the front office have a combined total time less than 5000 hours. Sure I can understand it on a Caravan, or a 210, but in a 737? No. Scares the pants off me to think that I'm trusting my life, and the lives of my family to some kids who're younger than my own sons (And I'm only 50).
It blows my mind to think that people actually believe they're qualified, ne, entitled, to have a front office position in a Boeing or Airbus. They need to put in several - read 10-15 years in a SAAB first, and that after having spent several additional years flying something smaller.
What ever happend to work ethic? To being willing to start at the bottom? In the corporate world one must start "in the mailroom" and work one's way to the top. Excluding small family owned businesses, even the bosses son starts in the mailroom.