Would you settle for this offer
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Originally Posted by Reluctant737
Bloody hell, if ever I smelt grudgery so sweet I cannot remember it!
2. Sweet grudgery? Oh dear, and we blame the Americans for mangling our language.
3. Either way you're wrong. What you are reading are comments from people who (rightly) blame those who have eroded the terms and conditions in this industry. The first step was SSTR's and we are now creeping toward the inevitable conclusion, idiots who pay to fly over an extended period.They've ruined it for all you wanabees who will find it increasingly difficult to get ahead in aviation without a big bag of money.
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Indeed but I got my point across, and it isn't half boring reading the same old phrases over and over again... plus a word (or phrase) must be used first before it is a word (or phrase), so you could really use that argument against any word in the English language! And if we're going to be picky, I did not say 'sweet grudgery', I said 'if ever I smelt grudgery so sweet', which is perfectly acceptable if you have an ounce of creativity within you. And I guarantee, had I used the same phrase whilst talking to you face to face, you either wouldn't have picked up on it, or accepted it because as humans it is not the technicalities of communication which are important to us, it is the ease with which we understand a channel of communication. But that's being picky.
Unless, you're not one of the 'Oxford/Collins dictionary is my Bible' types are you?
Either way, in response to your literary accusations against me, I should like to defend my case with a saying very close to my heart, "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools." Otherwise we would live in a dreadfully mundane existence
And in response to your opinion regarding the destruction of T+Cs, I stand by my original argument - India's economy and aviation industry is already FUBAR, so there's not a lot to be said for looking after it. Have you ever looked at the payscales in that part of the world?
Plus, I wouldn't regard these people as 'idiots' - you could use the same argument about anyone, for any person who claims never to have contributed to the degradation of anything is talking out their bumhole. Didn't you ever chase the girls round at school and ruin their day? Oh, that might have just been me...
Like I said, the 250hr pilot's playground
edited to say - plus, it's not the 250 hr guys who are ruining it for everybody else - they are trapped within a vicious circle, created by each other, airline management, politicians and others in so called positions of power. Ambition is a terribly powerful thing and will drive the otherwise sane indivudual to actions of insanity (paying for line training). So really, the blame lies with the guys already in the coorporation - they are the ones who have the power to prevent this, they are the ones with access to BALPA, they are the ones who hold a responsibility for the new guys. I do my best to maintain moral within my company - whenever I meet a skipper with a grudge I'll try to work it out with him, and whereever possible I respond to all correspondence from my company with an input from myself.
I personally feel that the blame is 50/50.
But that's a different discussion, the guy just wants to know what we think about the deal offered to him, not to rip him to shreds for what he's considering. Now that is wrong.
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Unless, you're not one of the 'Oxford/Collins dictionary is my Bible' types are you?
Either way, in response to your literary accusations against me, I should like to defend my case with a saying very close to my heart, "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools." Otherwise we would live in a dreadfully mundane existence
And in response to your opinion regarding the destruction of T+Cs, I stand by my original argument - India's economy and aviation industry is already FUBAR, so there's not a lot to be said for looking after it. Have you ever looked at the payscales in that part of the world?
Plus, I wouldn't regard these people as 'idiots' - you could use the same argument about anyone, for any person who claims never to have contributed to the degradation of anything is talking out their bumhole. Didn't you ever chase the girls round at school and ruin their day? Oh, that might have just been me...
Like I said, the 250hr pilot's playground
edited to say - plus, it's not the 250 hr guys who are ruining it for everybody else - they are trapped within a vicious circle, created by each other, airline management, politicians and others in so called positions of power. Ambition is a terribly powerful thing and will drive the otherwise sane indivudual to actions of insanity (paying for line training). So really, the blame lies with the guys already in the coorporation - they are the ones who have the power to prevent this, they are the ones with access to BALPA, they are the ones who hold a responsibility for the new guys. I do my best to maintain moral within my company - whenever I meet a skipper with a grudge I'll try to work it out with him, and whereever possible I respond to all correspondence from my company with an input from myself.
I personally feel that the blame is 50/50.
But that's a different discussion, the guy just wants to know what we think about the deal offered to him, not to rip him to shreds for what he's considering. Now that is wrong.
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Last edited by Reluctant737; 15th Feb 2009 at 15:39.
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Reluctant.
If you just want to mess about playing devil's advocate or more accurately, troll, you're wasting your time. As you're clearly a fan of quotes you'll know the one about it being better to have others think you a fool than to open ones mouth and confirm it.
It so happens I do know a little about the Indian market thanks. Just because it's a mess you're telling the OP it's alright to make it worse? A rather immature thing to write.
So the experienced pilots (who didn't pay for their own type ratings) are responsible for that idea? You really are way off the mark, aren't you? If the wannabees refuse to pay how long before the companies have to change their ways? It's the wannabees problem created by wannabees so they should sort it out. Don't try pointing the finger at those of us who never contributed to the SSTR disease. Physician, heal thyself.
As for berating the OP for considering this, why not? Any wannabee who hopes to see a return to sanity would do so. Anyone else has another agenda or (like myself) is not going to have to consider bribing their way into a job.
If you just want to mess about playing devil's advocate or more accurately, troll, you're wasting your time. As you're clearly a fan of quotes you'll know the one about it being better to have others think you a fool than to open ones mouth and confirm it.
It so happens I do know a little about the Indian market thanks. Just because it's a mess you're telling the OP it's alright to make it worse? A rather immature thing to write.
So the experienced pilots (who didn't pay for their own type ratings) are responsible for that idea? You really are way off the mark, aren't you? If the wannabees refuse to pay how long before the companies have to change their ways? It's the wannabees problem created by wannabees so they should sort it out. Don't try pointing the finger at those of us who never contributed to the SSTR disease. Physician, heal thyself.
As for berating the OP for considering this, why not? Any wannabee who hopes to see a return to sanity would do so. Anyone else has another agenda or (like myself) is not going to have to consider bribing their way into a job.
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I'm not going to be drawn into a debate about it - you have your opinion, I have mine.
And for clarification, I'm not blaming you, or anybody else, and top hat to the guys who made it on merit.
But we all have a hand in it, and pointing the finger at one group of people is wrong. The wannabes are the fuel that create the fire, but fire cannot be created on fuel alone. We have a right to help each other, but sometimes that control is taken from us by the powers that be. Perhaps one positive point to manifest itself out of this economic state is that less people will have the means to 'fuel' this fire.
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And for clarification, I'm not blaming you, or anybody else, and top hat to the guys who made it on merit.
But we all have a hand in it, and pointing the finger at one group of people is wrong. The wannabes are the fuel that create the fire, but fire cannot be created on fuel alone. We have a right to help each other, but sometimes that control is taken from us by the powers that be. Perhaps one positive point to manifest itself out of this economic state is that less people will have the means to 'fuel' this fire.
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Why are you finding it so hard to see where the blame lies? Bias induced by having paid for your own TR perhaps?
Try this. Company 'A' offers SSTR's. Experienced pilots already working do nothing and so the situation remains unchanged. Wannabee #1 then takes the bait, buys a type rating and a bean counter in Company 'A' says "Eureka!".
Now, you tell me. Where in that scenario did it all go wrong?
Try this. Company 'A' offers SSTR's. Experienced pilots already working do nothing and so the situation remains unchanged. Wannabee #1 then takes the bait, buys a type rating and a bean counter in Company 'A' says "Eureka!".
Now, you tell me. Where in that scenario did it all go wrong?
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But don't you see? Where the majority of the blame lies is irrelevant - it affects all of us in this industry and therefore it is the responsibility of all to do all we can to prevent it happening.
To clarify what I think, imagine a group of kids having fun at the local playing field. Now, if another, smaller group of kids come strolling up and does something that makes what the original lads are doing less enjoyable, it is their fault initially. But once that problem has been noticed, if the original group of kids don't do anything about it, then they are then also to blame for not taking control of the situation.
I think we are all in one big bed - this industry is full of problems, and the 250 hr self-paid line training cadet is just one of them. But once these problems intrude upon us as individuals and threaten our jobs, we are also to blame if we do nothing about it.
I don't disagree with you - if everybody just stopped paying for type ratings/line training etc, as soon as a few Captains dropped off the end of the corporate cliff, the problem begins to resolve itself.
But is that really feasible? Don't get me wrong, I don't condone this in the slightest, and I think we have reached a fork where decisions have to be made. But unfortunately, the better of the two roads to now be taken would require the coordination and compliance of thousands of new cadets refusing any schemes such as this. And we all know how many bigshots are out there, so is that really a possibility?
Or do we wait, let it happen (the older guys are lucky, they'll be out of all this soon), then make the best out of the future? Personally, I have every intention of working my way up in whatever airline I join in the future to a point where I can have an impact on decisions made - after all, it's my generation who will be in control of this industry in twenty or thirty years, that's the natural way of it. I can identify where you're coming from, and it's commendable, and I want the best for the industry I work in, of course I do, like everybody else!
I wouldn't have a problem if these 'schemes' were confined to the rung of the ladder at the very bottom, where guys are trying to take their first steps onboard. But yes, once it spreads upwards and jeapordises people's jobs that are well earnt, it does become a problem.
But what do we do?
To clarify what I think, imagine a group of kids having fun at the local playing field. Now, if another, smaller group of kids come strolling up and does something that makes what the original lads are doing less enjoyable, it is their fault initially. But once that problem has been noticed, if the original group of kids don't do anything about it, then they are then also to blame for not taking control of the situation.
I think we are all in one big bed - this industry is full of problems, and the 250 hr self-paid line training cadet is just one of them. But once these problems intrude upon us as individuals and threaten our jobs, we are also to blame if we do nothing about it.
I don't disagree with you - if everybody just stopped paying for type ratings/line training etc, as soon as a few Captains dropped off the end of the corporate cliff, the problem begins to resolve itself.
But is that really feasible? Don't get me wrong, I don't condone this in the slightest, and I think we have reached a fork where decisions have to be made. But unfortunately, the better of the two roads to now be taken would require the coordination and compliance of thousands of new cadets refusing any schemes such as this. And we all know how many bigshots are out there, so is that really a possibility?
Or do we wait, let it happen (the older guys are lucky, they'll be out of all this soon), then make the best out of the future? Personally, I have every intention of working my way up in whatever airline I join in the future to a point where I can have an impact on decisions made - after all, it's my generation who will be in control of this industry in twenty or thirty years, that's the natural way of it. I can identify where you're coming from, and it's commendable, and I want the best for the industry I work in, of course I do, like everybody else!
I wouldn't have a problem if these 'schemes' were confined to the rung of the ladder at the very bottom, where guys are trying to take their first steps onboard. But yes, once it spreads upwards and jeapordises people's jobs that are well earnt, it does become a problem.
But what do we do?
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Stop. Buying. Jobs. It really is that simple.
Ever seen what happens when a pondful of tadpoles doesn't have enough food? They turn cannibal. Know what the RYR FO's are complaining about these days? Lack of flying because it's all being given to the newbies who (guess what?) bought their jobs. "Great" say the newbies as they fly around in their big shiny jet. Until they hit 500 hours and the next wave of job-buyers starts appearing in the crew room.
Never mind telling 'us' that we need to help. You stitched your colleagues up when you bought your own TR's and you'll be stitched up by the next generation. Karma.
I don't see how I can explain it in any simpler terms.
Ever seen what happens when a pondful of tadpoles doesn't have enough food? They turn cannibal. Know what the RYR FO's are complaining about these days? Lack of flying because it's all being given to the newbies who (guess what?) bought their jobs. "Great" say the newbies as they fly around in their big shiny jet. Until they hit 500 hours and the next wave of job-buyers starts appearing in the crew room.
Never mind telling 'us' that we need to help. You stitched your colleagues up when you bought your own TR's and you'll be stitched up by the next generation. Karma.
I don't see how I can explain it in any simpler terms.
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I did what I had to do to get a job, it really is that simple. I never claimed to be something different, but I had to take what I was offered.
I care for this industry as much as anybody, if not more, and my passion for flying is unquestionable - Ryanair have one of the toughest assessments going, and it's easy to combat that statement with, "Well explain how so many people are walking through their doors!" It's because they have nowhere else to go - I should imagine 70% of pilots who have been furloughed in recent months have had a crack at FR, and when you consider how many that is, the pass rate suddenly doesn't seem so high.
So regardless of other people's opinions, I am proud to work for the company I do.
I must say, however, I breached the 500 hour mark a few months back - December saw me fly 74 hours, and last month I flew upwards of 80, which aint bad going considering the times. Sure, our load factors are down, but there are less than a handful of routes down by 50%. I would estimate we're seeing on average about 75-80% what we did last Summer.
As a company, we continue to expand, and the view you put forward above is very untrue but a common misconception of RYR. We're set for a busy year, and we need people to fill the new seats that are arriving. I'd bet money that none of those aeroplanes will need to be put into storage, and I remain convinced that everybody will have enough work to tie them down, at least until the Winter.
But we cannot blame the new guys purely for this - Ryanair's been offering this scheme for years without any problems.
If you really want somebody to blame, turn on the TV
I care for this industry as much as anybody, if not more, and my passion for flying is unquestionable - Ryanair have one of the toughest assessments going, and it's easy to combat that statement with, "Well explain how so many people are walking through their doors!" It's because they have nowhere else to go - I should imagine 70% of pilots who have been furloughed in recent months have had a crack at FR, and when you consider how many that is, the pass rate suddenly doesn't seem so high.
So regardless of other people's opinions, I am proud to work for the company I do.
I must say, however, I breached the 500 hour mark a few months back - December saw me fly 74 hours, and last month I flew upwards of 80, which aint bad going considering the times. Sure, our load factors are down, but there are less than a handful of routes down by 50%. I would estimate we're seeing on average about 75-80% what we did last Summer.
As a company, we continue to expand, and the view you put forward above is very untrue but a common misconception of RYR. We're set for a busy year, and we need people to fill the new seats that are arriving. I'd bet money that none of those aeroplanes will need to be put into storage, and I remain convinced that everybody will have enough work to tie them down, at least until the Winter.
But we cannot blame the new guys purely for this - Ryanair's been offering this scheme for years without any problems.
If you really want somebody to blame, turn on the TV
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Reluctant. In the words of the Egyptian washerwoman's friend you're in denial. Having spent £100,000 on your licence, rating, uniform, medical and whatever else you have to buy to go and fly for RYR I suppose that should come as no surprise especially as in your own words you're now not even certain if it's what you want to do. No surprise either that you try to shift the blame elsewhere. If I'd wasted £100,000 I'd be feeling pretty sheepish too.
From another thread (started by you):
I rest my case.
Economics 101. Supply and demand. If nobody buys these schemes then the likes of MOL won't be able to sell them.
From another thread (started by you):
Originally Posted by Reluctant 737
at least an actual bus driver can afford to pay the bills! Who designed this system anyway? Oh errrr sorry, it's people like me innit
Economics 101. Supply and demand. If nobody buys these schemes then the likes of MOL won't be able to sell them.
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Things were a little tough some months ago, that's to say the least! But even back then I was referring to how easy it is to point the blame at somebody else. I find it ironic how you're lecturing somebody else about this when in fact you are guilty of your own accusations.
You feel very strongly about your opinion, that's respectable, but now let me ask you this - through this two hour rant against my beliefs in this thread, what problems in this industry have been solved?
I rest my case.
Politics 101 - How do you convince tens of thousands of people to follow one line of action without causing uproar, mass protest, and without the odd fish slipping through the net?
And that's a question to you, on the basis of what proposition you've put forward.
p.s. £100,000 wasted? I am an airline pilot, am I not. That's fundamental
You feel very strongly about your opinion, that's respectable, but now let me ask you this - through this two hour rant against my beliefs in this thread, what problems in this industry have been solved?
I rest my case.
Politics 101 - How do you convince tens of thousands of people to follow one line of action without causing uproar, mass protest, and without the odd fish slipping through the net?
And that's a question to you, on the basis of what proposition you've put forward.
p.s. £100,000 wasted? I am an airline pilot, am I not. That's fundamental
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I would have to say that you can't just blame wannabes. When things started to go it was down to people already in the system to take issue with it, however as things have gone wannabes are sometimes left with no choice but to pay for things. They are not going to spend 70,000 training then stop because of a moral arguement.
It's a 50/50 thing where all of the blame isn't with one party.
But then what do I know, I'm not really in either camp. But hey, I'm just offering my opinion.
It's a 50/50 thing where all of the blame isn't with one party.
But then what do I know, I'm not really in either camp. But hey, I'm just offering my opinion.
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Indeed - the thing is, I've heard it all before - flying for RYR, I probably have this conversation once a week, if not more, albeit within a more pleasant aura. My generation of pilots have a responsibility in the future to lay the bricks of stability that the current generations are failing with. I'm not referring to pilots, we're mere pawns. I'm talking about management, but again, most people who enter airline management will succumb to the temptations of making a quick buck, which in this industry is usually at somebody else's expense.
It's not difficult, the whole thing's a vicious cycle, and everybody has their part to play in maintaining equilibrium. And with everything being such a mess, opinions will be varied and infinitely divided.
Flintstone, old mate, I'd love to debate this further, but I really don't see it going anywhere, so I'm going to have a couple of drinks and retire to bed, I have the delights of a few days worth of earlies coming my way.
I'd shake your hand if I could, but seeing as that's not possible, I'll leave it with a c'est la vie, and fly safe
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It's not difficult, the whole thing's a vicious cycle, and everybody has their part to play in maintaining equilibrium. And with everything being such a mess, opinions will be varied and infinitely divided.
Flintstone, old mate, I'd love to debate this further, but I really don't see it going anywhere, so I'm going to have a couple of drinks and retire to bed, I have the delights of a few days worth of earlies coming my way.
I'd shake your hand if I could, but seeing as that's not possible, I'll leave it with a c'est la vie, and fly safe
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Disco.
50/50 where? How do the pilots already working earn any of the blame? They can't.
Can you blame the companies? Yes, to a degree but who accepts the offer and hands over the cash thereby rendering these schemes workable for the companies?
There are companies who will pay for your TR and bond you. I've worked for those and turned down the others. I could have bought my jobs but didn't. If I can take the moral high ground (as have thousands of others) why should we be expected to take any of the blame for this mess?
We all have choices. What defines us is how we behave when our choices come back to haunt us and affect others.
Reluctant.
Rant? Hardly. A quick flick through your posts however does seem to reveal a propensity toward insults and the profane on your part. Well done on not reverting to type thus far. A sign of emerging maturity that perhaps, if it continues, will one day allow to to see that the 'buy a job' brigade really are major contributors to this state of affairs.
Clearly you were not "referring to how easy it is to point the blame at somebody else". You quite clearly stated that you were now (then) unsure if you'd gone the right way. If you perceive my voicing an opinion as "lecturing" though perhaps you've not come as far along the maturity road as I first thought.
Why have I bothered to point all this out to you? Because at some time in the future people will search these threads. They'll see that some of us managed to work our way up through the ranks and they'll see others who bought their way in and by doing so weakened our standing as a profession. Now too they'll also see that even after £100,000 it isn't always rosy and if just one of them chooses not to buy their way in it's been worth it.
I get it, others get it but some (those receiving bank loan balance statements in six figures once a month) pretend not to.
50/50 where? How do the pilots already working earn any of the blame? They can't.
Can you blame the companies? Yes, to a degree but who accepts the offer and hands over the cash thereby rendering these schemes workable for the companies?
There are companies who will pay for your TR and bond you. I've worked for those and turned down the others. I could have bought my jobs but didn't. If I can take the moral high ground (as have thousands of others) why should we be expected to take any of the blame for this mess?
We all have choices. What defines us is how we behave when our choices come back to haunt us and affect others.
Reluctant.
Rant? Hardly. A quick flick through your posts however does seem to reveal a propensity toward insults and the profane on your part. Well done on not reverting to type thus far. A sign of emerging maturity that perhaps, if it continues, will one day allow to to see that the 'buy a job' brigade really are major contributors to this state of affairs.
Clearly you were not "referring to how easy it is to point the blame at somebody else". You quite clearly stated that you were now (then) unsure if you'd gone the right way. If you perceive my voicing an opinion as "lecturing" though perhaps you've not come as far along the maturity road as I first thought.
Why have I bothered to point all this out to you? Because at some time in the future people will search these threads. They'll see that some of us managed to work our way up through the ranks and they'll see others who bought their way in and by doing so weakened our standing as a profession. Now too they'll also see that even after £100,000 it isn't always rosy and if just one of them chooses not to buy their way in it's been worth it.
I get it, others get it but some (those receiving bank loan balance statements in six figures once a month) pretend not to.
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Flintstone,
I see as well as anybody else - it is you who fail to see that in me. As it transpires, I took the correct action - I am happy now. And I was displaying a natural reaction to somebody who'd just put a huge pile of books on their head and was still working out whether they could handle the balance. In the end I could, and the decision was right for me. No pain, no gain, that's what they say.
And you should be happy to, I forfeit, you win
Life, if you can't beat it, make the best of it,
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I see as well as anybody else - it is you who fail to see that in me. As it transpires, I took the correct action - I am happy now. And I was displaying a natural reaction to somebody who'd just put a huge pile of books on their head and was still working out whether they could handle the balance. In the end I could, and the decision was right for me. No pain, no gain, that's what they say.
And you should be happy to, I forfeit, you win
Life, if you can't beat it, make the best of it,
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Bloody hell, if ever I smelt grudgery so sweet I cannot remember it!
If there is an opportunity out there and it works for you, then I say go for it. However that should be tempered with great care and an understanding of the possible consequences. It is the latter that is often difficult and neglected.
If you are hungry, you won't care where your food comes from. However the following year when you are trying to eek out a living growing grain, your efforts will be destoyed by the free sacks of the stuff raining out of the back of C130's overhead. So you can't earn a living and you can't buy the seed for next years crop.
Likewise if you pay to gain work experience with a company, where will that work sustain you if other companies also satisfy their labour requirements from those behind you who are also willing to pay? I suppose you need to hope that you can run faster than the tide is coming in?
As an unchecked trend, it would seem inevitable that the soon to be "1000 hour experience type rated pilot" will be no better off than todays "250 hour wannabe". Nevertheless, if somebody can profit from this scheme before it negates the end goal, then good luck to them. Success will be hoping than you continue to stay one step ahead of the advancing tide.
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Perhaps when pilots saw these schemes coming in there could have been some action on their part to stop them being implemented, strikes etc. Thats what i was trying to say.
I dont know if this was possible, I was just trying to put the point out there thats all.
I dont know if this was possible, I was just trying to put the point out there thats all.
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There's a very good reason they won't take expats. It's because they would have to go through international courts to get their teeth into them when they walked out after getting 500 hours. An Indian company can sink their teeth into an Indian citizen quite easily, but an expat could tell them to take their 18 month contract and shove it where the sun doesn't shine as soon as they feel they have enough experience to be competitive elsewhere.
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Disco, I don't know why I'm laughing here. Maybe it's the thought of a relatively complicated solution being mooted when a very, very simple one was available all along. Scenario 1. Airline announces a buy-your-job scam. Pilots approach their union. Union approach management. Negotiations drag on for months. Strike occurs. Passengers inconvenienced. Non-flying staff can't work, lose pay etc. Industrial relations suffer plus a load of knock-on effects like disgruntled passengers going elsewhere, reduced revenue resulting in job losses. That sort of stuff.
Scenario 2. Airline announces a 'buy-your-job' scam. Wannabees say "No thanks. We'll wait until you need us enough to pay our type ratings".
Those who agreed to buy their jobs brought this on. Why should those who didn't pay their way in risk their jobs to protect those who will gladly bend over? Nobody forced them to go that route, just like Reluctant 737 said he (they) chose to. I'm tired of the whining and demands for me to stand up when I never contributed to the problem and in fact have been warning against it for years.
Actually, why not ask Reluctant and his colleagues to strike in favour of the next wave of wannabees? Reluctant? What about it? How many of you guys and girls will tell MOR you're not working unless he starts giving out free type ratings?