The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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a little snippet from the BALPA discussion on where they stand with Pay to fly (CTC)
The next edition of the Log has a long article on CTC and its effect on the airlines, in which (surprisingly) CTC gave an interview. It brings up several new and interesting points.
Hitting your doormats in about three weeks folks ..... !
Just as an aside, Easyjet pilots are the second biggest contributor, (BA being the largest), to BALPA. So it begs the question why are these CTC Guys / Girls not being supported by Easyjet CC BALPA?? Before it raises its head again, I know they are not employees of Easyjet. And that`s the point, Why not.. There is either a postion to be filled or not.
Just thought I`d ask....
PS
Hitting your doormats in about three weeks folks ..... !
Just as an aside, Easyjet pilots are the second biggest contributor, (BA being the largest), to BALPA. So it begs the question why are these CTC Guys / Girls not being supported by Easyjet CC BALPA?? Before it raises its head again, I know they are not employees of Easyjet. And that`s the point, Why not.. There is either a postion to be filled or not.
Just thought I`d ask....
PS
So it begs the question why are these CTC Guys / Girls not being supported by Easyjet CC BALPA??
CTC trainees/FlexiCrew can still be members of BALPA and are encouraged to be so, but at company level there is little representation available - there is no recognition within CTC, and they do not come under the collective agreements covering easyJet staff.
Yes, I wish it was different.
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Balpa are trying (or going to shortly) to get union recognition from CTC so that they can represent trainees and the flexi guys. This will hopefully close the gap
where the EZY CC cannot represent the cadets flying at EZY. They could then be represented directly or by the CC of the airline they are working for I guess. I would like to think this would have benefits for all involved (pilot wise anyway!!!).
where the EZY CC cannot represent the cadets flying at EZY. They could then be represented directly or by the CC of the airline they are working for I guess. I would like to think this would have benefits for all involved (pilot wise anyway!!!).
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Sorry guys no gossip to tell, its patience till the new year. CTC doesn't let us know anything until they have concrete agreements or dates in place.
chelsce - wouldn't we all. Outsiders can kick up some good debates though so everyones welcome!
chelsce - wouldn't we all. Outsiders can kick up some good debates though so everyones welcome!
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I wondered for a while whether to post this or not for fear of sparking a “the industry is doomed” versus “no it’s the best time to train debate” but sod it here goes.
CTC have recently asked for volunteers to go along and help at the recruitment days they are soon to be running at universities. They have always liked someone stood there adorned in stripes to help “wow” the future recruits to join the scheme.
My question to those going (or those who volunteered to go but weren’t picked) is what are (were) you going to say? Are you going to be brutally honest about what’s happening now or sugar coat it?
I have to be slightly honest when I got the email as I am free and near one of the uni’s I thought I might go along and tell people exactly what is happening at the moment so they get a clear, bias free picture and can make their decision armed with a few facts. I decided against it as I don’t want to get involved! What did amaze me is that this time round they had so many people volunteering to go that they are going to just pick a few. For previous drives they have struggled to get one or two. I guess it speaks volumes about the number of cadets sat waiting in the growing hold pool.
In a time when cadets are not getting taken on, those that are, are on flexi contracts being sent round Europe to bases with a just get there and sort yourself out approach. Do 6 months (maybe) in the UK, then we will send you abroad for a bit, then somewhere else if you are lucky etc. Or a 6 month on, 6months off contract in the UK for some airlines. When in Europe for a few months you have to provide your own accommodation, transport, pay your loan etc all at short notice with no idea where you will be next, if you will be kept on and how much you will be earning. The internal CTC forum has a couple of threads where cadets are openly talking about looking at going bankrupt as loan repayments spiral out of control.
If asked by future candidates will you discuss this? Will you give people all the information to allow them to plan accordingly for when they complete training?
I still think you have a far better chance with CTC than going it alone but I didn’t want to go and help recruit as I would feel guilty reading the CTC forum in 18 months time as these people are on there asking those who have gone bankrupt before how they do it! As I can’t say for a FACT to people looking to start that they will get a permanent job in a few years I don’t want to help recruit. Not when so much of your own money is now involved.
Can you honestly look someone in the eye and tell them it’s PROBABLY going to work out and to put their parent’s house on the line?
To be honest I think it’s slightly immoral of CTC to get past graduates involved with things the way they are.
Please don’t take this as me knocking the scheme, just sometimes the spin the “scheme” puts out.
I just really feel for the guys at the moment I see going through it all. It’s not easy for them. I wish I could help. I can’t. Therefore I will absolutely not help encourage more people into their situation.
CTC have recently asked for volunteers to go along and help at the recruitment days they are soon to be running at universities. They have always liked someone stood there adorned in stripes to help “wow” the future recruits to join the scheme.
My question to those going (or those who volunteered to go but weren’t picked) is what are (were) you going to say? Are you going to be brutally honest about what’s happening now or sugar coat it?
I have to be slightly honest when I got the email as I am free and near one of the uni’s I thought I might go along and tell people exactly what is happening at the moment so they get a clear, bias free picture and can make their decision armed with a few facts. I decided against it as I don’t want to get involved! What did amaze me is that this time round they had so many people volunteering to go that they are going to just pick a few. For previous drives they have struggled to get one or two. I guess it speaks volumes about the number of cadets sat waiting in the growing hold pool.
In a time when cadets are not getting taken on, those that are, are on flexi contracts being sent round Europe to bases with a just get there and sort yourself out approach. Do 6 months (maybe) in the UK, then we will send you abroad for a bit, then somewhere else if you are lucky etc. Or a 6 month on, 6months off contract in the UK for some airlines. When in Europe for a few months you have to provide your own accommodation, transport, pay your loan etc all at short notice with no idea where you will be next, if you will be kept on and how much you will be earning. The internal CTC forum has a couple of threads where cadets are openly talking about looking at going bankrupt as loan repayments spiral out of control.
If asked by future candidates will you discuss this? Will you give people all the information to allow them to plan accordingly for when they complete training?
I still think you have a far better chance with CTC than going it alone but I didn’t want to go and help recruit as I would feel guilty reading the CTC forum in 18 months time as these people are on there asking those who have gone bankrupt before how they do it! As I can’t say for a FACT to people looking to start that they will get a permanent job in a few years I don’t want to help recruit. Not when so much of your own money is now involved.
Can you honestly look someone in the eye and tell them it’s PROBABLY going to work out and to put their parent’s house on the line?
To be honest I think it’s slightly immoral of CTC to get past graduates involved with things the way they are.
Please don’t take this as me knocking the scheme, just sometimes the spin the “scheme” puts out.
I just really feel for the guys at the moment I see going through it all. It’s not easy for them. I wish I could help. I can’t. Therefore I will absolutely not help encourage more people into their situation.
Thanks for sharing that. I think you did the right thing in not getting involved. These are life defining decisions that can go either way. CTC have a profit motive and will have to answer to their own conscience. No need to make others complicit and also mildly degrading to be the eye candy on the stall I would have thought.
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One post only - I know what you mean, I cannot believe the turnout...oh wait I can. It will be all those people that want to be seen in a uniform and have an excuse to look important before going to the job centre to sign on for another 2 weeks the next morning.
I cannot bring myself to advertise CTC so I think it is best for both parties if I don't go to any of these events. For those going that are willing to lie to future cadets and say how amazing it all is - shame on you. If you can look at yourself in the mirror while wearing that worn out uniform and truly think 'everything is great' then go sing your heart out.
CTC aren't the only ones at it though, someone said to me the other day "no its fine the instructors at Oxford were great, they said this is the best time to train because it will all be much better by the time I finish"...tututut
I cannot bring myself to advertise CTC so I think it is best for both parties if I don't go to any of these events. For those going that are willing to lie to future cadets and say how amazing it all is - shame on you. If you can look at yourself in the mirror while wearing that worn out uniform and truly think 'everything is great' then go sing your heart out.
CTC aren't the only ones at it though, someone said to me the other day "no its fine the instructors at Oxford were great, they said this is the best time to train because it will all be much better by the time I finish"...tututut
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HoW Update - October 09
Hi guys,
Who would care to react to the 11 page October 09 HoW where it is mentionned about talks to middle east airlines, pool seniority, answers to BALPA, possibility of self funding TR (although not upfront) ?
Best regards,
FSP
Who would care to react to the 11 page October 09 HoW where it is mentionned about talks to middle east airlines, pool seniority, answers to BALPA, possibility of self funding TR (although not upfront) ?
Best regards,
FSP
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One post only,
I would look at it a different way: of course there was a flood of volunteers: you get £50 for one of these days, and it's not like many of the volunteers have any other income at the moment!
I would look at it a different way: of course there was a flood of volunteers: you get £50 for one of these days, and it's not like many of the volunteers have any other income at the moment!
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I will then.
My back ground is been through the system, completed 6 months line training and back into the hold pool, temping jobs and on the doll..... and all that
Generally mixed feelings about the news letter. Balpa took the words out of my mouth as they were similar questions I was beginning to ask, but CTC never really give a full answer when you email them, which is a shame as that just makes me loose more confidence.
The news letter was very positive and gave some feel good factor about the long term future as I believe much of it is true.
On the other hand I feel it was written to much towards 'the students are there No.1 and only priority'. Now I don't know how the business operates financially with the airlines, but the way we are handled at the moment, for example fresh cadets have priority over those that already have completed line experience but unfortunately let go by the airline, is not only beneficial to the airline but I would also suspect to CTC as well.
Which is fair enough, as CTC is a business as well as a training organisation, and in order to survive this down turn they need to balance business needs along with there training services. I wish they would just be more open about this.
With regards to cadets being taken on as cheap labour and let go or words to that affect. I feel CTC are one of many players that is allowing this to happen, even though CTC pass the buck by saying "but it is what the airlines are demanding". This is why I think it is one of CTC's business needs to do this as well in order to survive. CTC have much more clout about them than they are willing or relise to use to face the airlines and say "no this are not good terms and conditions".
However CTC did say that they are now in discussions with EJ to try and help career progression. But then this was contradicted by saying that other airlines will soon be following suit for this cheap labour option. Well why not discuss with them with what you are discussing with EJ as well?
Seniority.
Well no one is asking CTC to stop training people. But I do not believe it is right for fresh Cadets to take new positions while others with experience in the hold pool are on the doll.
CTC mentioned it wasn’t right for fresh cadets to finish training then get cold on the doll etc before getting a job. Well this does not differ much from completing your training and line training for 6 months then applying for the doll, getting cold. I completed line training and now I’m getting very cold and feel that all my confidence is gone from flying the aircraft without redoing a lot of training again, just like the chap mentioned in the balpa mag, which is a point CTC seem to miss. Further,CTC mentioned it was done like this so we had more to put on our CV for potential jobs..........What potential jobs, so whats the point?
Therefore I think if you are let go after line training you should then be at the top of the pile for any position over fresh cadets to allow those who joined CTC first to progress there career first. Just like in the normal world. Those with experience got the job. I would much rather complete my training, wait years is necessary then start my career. Not finish training wait for an airline position, then do 6 months line training, then finish back on to the doll, then wait another year to start my career......... this is not stability.
It is now possible for cadets to undercut us with line experience, then by chance, some will be offered permanent jobs straight away, while us unlucky ones will remain in the hold pool for 1…..2…..3… or so years.
As CTC said they do not make us go to any airline, we can turn down offers if they are unsuitable ie Middle east airlines and far east and then the next person inline get s offered itwhich is good. As some of us have circumstances that do not allow us to move abroard, and if that means I have to wait longer then so be it.
Again with regards to cheap labour, Balpa accused this is reducing flght safety. I agree with CTC's defence, but I also appreciate the view that training captains are having more continuous pressure and therefore fatigue may set in and we all know what happens then. But it was wrong for the Balpa or who ever wrote this, to relate this with the tail scrape at monarch incident. This can happen to anyone!
CTC is still a great scheme, I just don't agree with the way somethings have been handled over the last 18 months.
If I think of any more points I will add them later.
This is my view only. I am not slagging anyone off
Love to hear your views to.
Mint
My back ground is been through the system, completed 6 months line training and back into the hold pool, temping jobs and on the doll..... and all that
Generally mixed feelings about the news letter. Balpa took the words out of my mouth as they were similar questions I was beginning to ask, but CTC never really give a full answer when you email them, which is a shame as that just makes me loose more confidence.
The news letter was very positive and gave some feel good factor about the long term future as I believe much of it is true.
On the other hand I feel it was written to much towards 'the students are there No.1 and only priority'. Now I don't know how the business operates financially with the airlines, but the way we are handled at the moment, for example fresh cadets have priority over those that already have completed line experience but unfortunately let go by the airline, is not only beneficial to the airline but I would also suspect to CTC as well.
Which is fair enough, as CTC is a business as well as a training organisation, and in order to survive this down turn they need to balance business needs along with there training services. I wish they would just be more open about this.
With regards to cadets being taken on as cheap labour and let go or words to that affect. I feel CTC are one of many players that is allowing this to happen, even though CTC pass the buck by saying "but it is what the airlines are demanding". This is why I think it is one of CTC's business needs to do this as well in order to survive. CTC have much more clout about them than they are willing or relise to use to face the airlines and say "no this are not good terms and conditions".
However CTC did say that they are now in discussions with EJ to try and help career progression. But then this was contradicted by saying that other airlines will soon be following suit for this cheap labour option. Well why not discuss with them with what you are discussing with EJ as well?
Seniority.
Well no one is asking CTC to stop training people. But I do not believe it is right for fresh Cadets to take new positions while others with experience in the hold pool are on the doll.
CTC mentioned it wasn’t right for fresh cadets to finish training then get cold on the doll etc before getting a job. Well this does not differ much from completing your training and line training for 6 months then applying for the doll, getting cold. I completed line training and now I’m getting very cold and feel that all my confidence is gone from flying the aircraft without redoing a lot of training again, just like the chap mentioned in the balpa mag, which is a point CTC seem to miss. Further,CTC mentioned it was done like this so we had more to put on our CV for potential jobs..........What potential jobs, so whats the point?
Therefore I think if you are let go after line training you should then be at the top of the pile for any position over fresh cadets to allow those who joined CTC first to progress there career first. Just like in the normal world. Those with experience got the job. I would much rather complete my training, wait years is necessary then start my career. Not finish training wait for an airline position, then do 6 months line training, then finish back on to the doll, then wait another year to start my career......... this is not stability.
It is now possible for cadets to undercut us with line experience, then by chance, some will be offered permanent jobs straight away, while us unlucky ones will remain in the hold pool for 1…..2…..3… or so years.
As CTC said they do not make us go to any airline, we can turn down offers if they are unsuitable ie Middle east airlines and far east and then the next person inline get s offered itwhich is good. As some of us have circumstances that do not allow us to move abroard, and if that means I have to wait longer then so be it.
Again with regards to cheap labour, Balpa accused this is reducing flght safety. I agree with CTC's defence, but I also appreciate the view that training captains are having more continuous pressure and therefore fatigue may set in and we all know what happens then. But it was wrong for the Balpa or who ever wrote this, to relate this with the tail scrape at monarch incident. This can happen to anyone!
CTC is still a great scheme, I just don't agree with the way somethings have been handled over the last 18 months.
If I think of any more points I will add them later.
This is my view only. I am not slagging anyone off
Love to hear your views to.
Mint
Last edited by Mintflavour; 30th Oct 2009 at 18:01. Reason: Improved English & added text
For the record - ex-cadet, now in full time employment.
I would echo One Post Only's comments about the request for assistance at these recruitment days. I considered it for a very short time and then thought to myself "actually, what would I say?!" I'm all for doing one's bit when it's appropriate - I loved getting involved when I was training and after all, the course is very good and for me did exactly what it advertised it would do. But things are different now than they were then, and bursting out of the bubble without a job and with a lot of debt opens your eyes to the realities of the situation a bit more.
It matters not whether some people think now is a good time to start training or not - nobody has a crystal ball and can see exactly what is going to happen in 18 months' or 2 years' time. I would only be able to draw on my past experience. How could I possibly stand there, while there is growing talk of a number of cadets facing impending bankruptcy, a move towards flexible (i.e. temporary) contracts and, in the past few years, a massive increase of cadets shortly before a big recession resulting in a massive backlog to clear, and look prospective trainees and their parents in the eye and tell them that now is a great time to start training?! How would I feel when I saw them desperately scraping round for a job and trying to stave off hungry creditors, as some are doing now, after I had attended one of these days with my nice uniform and big smile, and told them about how wonderful the job is? This is before I factor in my opinion about it being completely and utterly irresponsible to stake someone's house on a job requiring repayments of £1k/month plus, for the best part of a decade, before you even start to consider your normal cost of living, in one of the most volatile and sensitive industries on the planet. (Yes, my loan was unsecured, and if I was starting now and this was still the case, I'd still be highly dubious.)
Plus, I'd want more than 50 measly quid for my time when the company stand to make many times more that from whichever starry-eyed wannabes think my airline uniform looks cool.
I would echo One Post Only's comments about the request for assistance at these recruitment days. I considered it for a very short time and then thought to myself "actually, what would I say?!" I'm all for doing one's bit when it's appropriate - I loved getting involved when I was training and after all, the course is very good and for me did exactly what it advertised it would do. But things are different now than they were then, and bursting out of the bubble without a job and with a lot of debt opens your eyes to the realities of the situation a bit more.
It matters not whether some people think now is a good time to start training or not - nobody has a crystal ball and can see exactly what is going to happen in 18 months' or 2 years' time. I would only be able to draw on my past experience. How could I possibly stand there, while there is growing talk of a number of cadets facing impending bankruptcy, a move towards flexible (i.e. temporary) contracts and, in the past few years, a massive increase of cadets shortly before a big recession resulting in a massive backlog to clear, and look prospective trainees and their parents in the eye and tell them that now is a great time to start training?! How would I feel when I saw them desperately scraping round for a job and trying to stave off hungry creditors, as some are doing now, after I had attended one of these days with my nice uniform and big smile, and told them about how wonderful the job is? This is before I factor in my opinion about it being completely and utterly irresponsible to stake someone's house on a job requiring repayments of £1k/month plus, for the best part of a decade, before you even start to consider your normal cost of living, in one of the most volatile and sensitive industries on the planet. (Yes, my loan was unsecured, and if I was starting now and this was still the case, I'd still be highly dubious.)
Plus, I'd want more than 50 measly quid for my time when the company stand to make many times more that from whichever starry-eyed wannabes think my airline uniform looks cool.
CTC
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EGCC4284 Whats great about it???
The Logs reports: THERE MAY BE TROUBLE AHEAD. Worrying trends in training and working conditions mean that what was once a great job for life is in real danger of becoming a seasonal job for students.
There are quotes from CTC, and OAA executives.
Seems to me BALPA are reporting after the horse has bolted.
NOTHING GREAT ABOUT THE ARTICLE AT ALL. Bl**dy terrible exploitation.
Anyway off to work.
PS
The Logs reports: THERE MAY BE TROUBLE AHEAD. Worrying trends in training and working conditions mean that what was once a great job for life is in real danger of becoming a seasonal job for students.
There are quotes from CTC, and OAA executives.
Seems to me BALPA are reporting after the horse has bolted.
NOTHING GREAT ABOUT THE ARTICLE AT ALL. Bl**dy terrible exploitation.
Anyway off to work.
PS