The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Changing topic here, I've done a lot of research and reading on CTC and it seems that many do tend to go on to join their partnered airlines after finishing the course.
I am curious, have any cadets gone to join other airlines that aren't partnered with CTC? Have any ever gone to, just to name a few, Norwegian Air Shuttle or Air France or KLM, Transavia, Vueling, TAP Portugal, SAS, Iceland Air, Ryanair, FlyNiki or AirBerlin etc etc? Are cadets bound to the holding pool and the airlines that intake from that pool? What are the job prospects of joining any airline practically?
OAA used to have an employment page on their website listing different airlines and numbers about graduates and their employment stats. Unfortunately CTC never had one like this but it would be very useful. This information would be valuable and appreciated!
Cheers and many safe landings!!
I am curious, have any cadets gone to join other airlines that aren't partnered with CTC? Have any ever gone to, just to name a few, Norwegian Air Shuttle or Air France or KLM, Transavia, Vueling, TAP Portugal, SAS, Iceland Air, Ryanair, FlyNiki or AirBerlin etc etc? Are cadets bound to the holding pool and the airlines that intake from that pool? What are the job prospects of joining any airline practically?
OAA used to have an employment page on their website listing different airlines and numbers about graduates and their employment stats. Unfortunately CTC never had one like this but it would be very useful. This information would be valuable and appreciated!
Cheers and many safe landings!!
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is rather less linear and more dynamic than that. Put simply, yes, you can complete the course and find work wherever it might be available. You are not tied to any holding pool. Many airlines will stipulate minimum experience requirements for direct entry pilots. Unless they operate a cadet scheme of their own it is unlikely that many graduating pilots with only their training hours would satisfy those requirements. Those airlines that do operate cadet programmes will (in the majority of cases) affiliate to particular Flight Training Organisations.
CTC operates a number of programmes leading to the completion of the basic professional licence qualifications, as well as providing intermediate and in some cases part of the advanced training requirements for the transition into specific airlines cadet programmes. These courses follow a number of pathways although much of the training programme is common to all of them. For example the "Wings cadet" course applies selective criteria for the completion of the licence programme, as well as the Airline Qualification Course (AQC). Successful graduation leads into the primary selection pool for many of the "partner airlines" that draw from it, in accordance with their own current requirements as they exist from time to time.
CTC also offers a "Wings IPP" programme when a candidate either doesn't satisfy the "wings cadet" selection criteria, when it may not be available, or when they elect that particular route. This programme utilizes exactly the same training syllabus as the cadet programme, but the risk shifts more to the candidate proving their ability in order to be placed in the primary selection pool upon graduation. It also doesn't include some of the intermediate costs (AQC for example) that are an integrated part of the cadet programme.
Some airlines (For example British airways FPP, and some other airlines pre-selection programmes,) utilize the wings cadet programme with a conditional offer of employment at onset. Depending on the level of financial support as a part of the contract, these graduates may be financially bound to discharge their commitments before they would be able to seek alternative employment in the (probably unlikely) event that they should elect to. If the conditional offer of employment could not be fulfilled by the airline, then it is likely the graduate would be free to take up any other offer that might be available at that time, either through the "holding pool" or through the open market.
Quite a few graduates of these programmes do go on to fulfil their careers at other airlines as a result of the experience they have gained with their initial placements. Once you have reached that rung on the experience ladder then the open market is available to you.
The enormous hurdle that ab-initio pilots face, is in finding the opportunities to get the experience levels that many airlines demand. The airlines that are partners of CTC provide (from time to time, and absolutely as their own commercial requirements dictate,) just those opportunities. It is a very cold world for low hour pilots seeking those opportunities without specific integration. Airlines without cadet programmes usually source their F/O's from the experienced open market. Without that experience they are likely to tell you to come back when you do have it.
CTC operates a number of programmes leading to the completion of the basic professional licence qualifications, as well as providing intermediate and in some cases part of the advanced training requirements for the transition into specific airlines cadet programmes. These courses follow a number of pathways although much of the training programme is common to all of them. For example the "Wings cadet" course applies selective criteria for the completion of the licence programme, as well as the Airline Qualification Course (AQC). Successful graduation leads into the primary selection pool for many of the "partner airlines" that draw from it, in accordance with their own current requirements as they exist from time to time.
CTC also offers a "Wings IPP" programme when a candidate either doesn't satisfy the "wings cadet" selection criteria, when it may not be available, or when they elect that particular route. This programme utilizes exactly the same training syllabus as the cadet programme, but the risk shifts more to the candidate proving their ability in order to be placed in the primary selection pool upon graduation. It also doesn't include some of the intermediate costs (AQC for example) that are an integrated part of the cadet programme.
Some airlines (For example British airways FPP, and some other airlines pre-selection programmes,) utilize the wings cadet programme with a conditional offer of employment at onset. Depending on the level of financial support as a part of the contract, these graduates may be financially bound to discharge their commitments before they would be able to seek alternative employment in the (probably unlikely) event that they should elect to. If the conditional offer of employment could not be fulfilled by the airline, then it is likely the graduate would be free to take up any other offer that might be available at that time, either through the "holding pool" or through the open market.
Quite a few graduates of these programmes do go on to fulfil their careers at other airlines as a result of the experience they have gained with their initial placements. Once you have reached that rung on the experience ladder then the open market is available to you.
The enormous hurdle that ab-initio pilots face, is in finding the opportunities to get the experience levels that many airlines demand. The airlines that are partners of CTC provide (from time to time, and absolutely as their own commercial requirements dictate,) just those opportunities. It is a very cold world for low hour pilots seeking those opportunities without specific integration. Airlines without cadet programmes usually source their F/O's from the experienced open market. Without that experience they are likely to tell you to come back when you do have it.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand many do tend to go into the partnered airlines with the aim of building up hours and if they so elect to, transition onto other airlines in the open market. Reality sets in, lots of hours satisfied and a few decide they want to move into a "giant" airline.
What I mainly want to know is, have they're ever been Wings cadets, that right after finishing up their ab-initio fATPL, have satisfactorily secured an offer of employment with an airline that's not part of the CTC airline partners?
I've read in this forum some have had to wait months until finally entering either easyJet or another partner airline when in the "holding pool". I am hoping to get a good picture of the overall situation once you've finished the course. Perhaps rather than having to wait for so long there are a few opportunities with other airlines that may be interesting too.
It's really the "hurdle" you're saying which I want to have more awareness of. I have a good idea how competitive and dark it is once you're done. And I've read stories of people making tremendous efforts into securing their first job. But through CTC, would you perhaps say this "hurdle" is somewhat less of a jump than going to other ATOs?
Cheers!
What I mainly want to know is, have they're ever been Wings cadets, that right after finishing up their ab-initio fATPL, have satisfactorily secured an offer of employment with an airline that's not part of the CTC airline partners?
I've read in this forum some have had to wait months until finally entering either easyJet or another partner airline when in the "holding pool". I am hoping to get a good picture of the overall situation once you've finished the course. Perhaps rather than having to wait for so long there are a few opportunities with other airlines that may be interesting too.
It's really the "hurdle" you're saying which I want to have more awareness of. I have a good idea how competitive and dark it is once you're done. And I've read stories of people making tremendous efforts into securing their first job. But through CTC, would you perhaps say this "hurdle" is somewhat less of a jump than going to other ATOs?
Cheers!
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I mainly want to know is, have they're ever been Wings cadets, that right after finishing up their ab-initio fATPL, have satisfactorily secured an offer of employment with an airline that's not part of the CTC airline partners?
Outside of a structured cadet scheme there are very few airlines that would consider applicants with this level of low experience, and that would be the problem that would constantly resurface. Nevertheless, if you can find one, that would be fine.
I've read in this forum some have had to wait months until finally entering either easyJet or another partner airline when in the "holding pool". I am hoping to get a good picture of the overall situation once you've finished the course. Perhaps rather than having to wait for so long there are a few opportunities with other airlines that may be interesting too.
Many airlines (including partner airlines) complete the majority of their training in the Winter/Spring period. This is often the period when the operational requirements of the company allow for a greater availability of training tracks. Ab-initio advanced training of this nature is extremely demanding of those resources, and again it tends to focus those opportunities into this Winter/Spring period. The result is that where cadet vacancies do arise they tend to do so in a seasonal fashion. Outside of these seasons the "pools" tend to fill up, and they then empty as the recruitment season gets under way. By way of example, I have seen cadets graduate straight into partner airlines without any waiting at all in the last 24 months. However graduates immediately in line behind this group then had to wait almost a year for the next sequential vacancies(with the same partner) to arise. Therefore you should allow for this very real possibility in your planning. You should also bear in mind that the airline placements depend completely on the customer airlines requirements and their individual terms and conditions (which vary) at any given point in time.
In summary, you simply cannot guarantee anything and you need to be very aware of that. You should also be aware that the first tier airline market for low hour pilots may not be what you imagine it to be. Those airlines that offer cadet programmes to low hour pilots tend to do so in conjunction with specific FTO's. Those that do not, may require you to spend over a third of the entire fATPL syllabus cost (in addition) on the type rating alone. Clearly, the partner airline programmes offer significant advantages, but again, they are seasonal and very much dependent on the state of the market within each airlines own sphere at any given point in time.
It may be worth noting that for those who seek employment on their own may be withdrawn from the hold pool thus missing out on the job offers. This is second hand info but worth investigating further before you sign your life away with the intention of seeing if perhaps Cathay will hire you directly after training!
Hold pool
Is it true that going to CTC merely gets you a guarantee of an interview with an airline partner if you finish the course with first time passes in everything?
That much money for an interview is a bit of a scam don't you think?
That much money for an interview is a bit of a scam don't you think?
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, it doesn't guarantee anything. The partner airlines make their selection from the graduates that are available. That selection process is likely to involve an interview. Those graduates that I am aware of who came to us, were certainly interviewed. The majority of those interviewed were selected for placement, and almost all of them were offered employment contracts at the end of their placement periods. I understand that trainees receive training and guidance on interview preparation.
First time passes in everything, isn't a prerequisite that I am aware of, but it might be for a particular company. Many of the graduates may well achieve first time passes at the various testing stages and that is good. However flight training is a dynamic and if a candidate required additional training to meet a standard at some point during that training, that certainly wouldn't preclude them a placement at the partner airlines that I am aware of.
Yes, if you think life is full of guarantees it probably would appear that way to you. The partner airlines are separate companies with their own requirements, terms and conditions. If they have no requirement then they will be offering no interviews. If they do have a requirement, then the FTO will put forward candidates from which they can make their own selection. That is likely to involve an interview. An interview is part of the process if you are selecting cadet pilots as indeed it is if you are selecting pilots with many thousands of hours of relevant experience. An experienced pilot within the airline is also going to be interviewed for appointment opportunities within the company (training, administration, management etc.) It is also increasingly becoming a part of the regular "personal development" process in most companies.
Those CTC graduates that I regularly fly with, don't regard it as "a bit of a scam." They were all interviewed as a part of the process. I am not aware that any were "guaranteed" an interview with anybody, although given the high level of placement, most obviously went through that process by default.
First time passes in everything, isn't a prerequisite that I am aware of, but it might be for a particular company. Many of the graduates may well achieve first time passes at the various testing stages and that is good. However flight training is a dynamic and if a candidate required additional training to meet a standard at some point during that training, that certainly wouldn't preclude them a placement at the partner airlines that I am aware of.
That much money for an interview is a bit of a scam don't you think?
Those CTC graduates that I regularly fly with, don't regard it as "a bit of a scam." They were all interviewed as a part of the process. I am not aware that any were "guaranteed" an interview with anybody, although given the high level of placement, most obviously went through that process by default.
CTC Phoenix
Interesting news posted by CTC! Do Oxford still operate out of this Airport or have they moved?
Global airline pilot training company CTC Aviation to open new Crew Training Centre in North America | CTC Wings
Global airline pilot training company CTC Aviation to open new Crew Training Centre in North America | CTC Wings
Last edited by planedrive; 19th Feb 2014 at 06:39.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
planedrive: I've been told that CTC are occupying the old OAA facilities as they have moved their operation to another airport close by. Hamilton is still remaining open, cadets from some courses currently undergoing ground school in Southampton have now been given the option to complete the initial flight training either in Arizona or Hamilton.
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Wales
Age: 40
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone know if cadets will always get a choice between Arizona or Hamilton?
Surely the majority of people would prefer Hamilton...
Surely the majority of people would prefer Hamilton...
Anyone know what the hold pool situation is at CTC at the moment - easy still taking some or are things grinding to a halt...?
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: egll
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"They couldn't give an answer on the pool, no one seemed to know a figure."
I found that to be the case for a lot of my questions.
Does anyone here know whether after passing CTC's phase 2 and failing the phase 3 interview if I can go straight to phase 3 upon reapplying or do I have to repeat phase 2 ? Strangely enough no one could give me an answer on Saturday. I also couldn't seem to find an answer in this.
Thanks
I found that to be the case for a lot of my questions.
Does anyone here know whether after passing CTC's phase 2 and failing the phase 3 interview if I can go straight to phase 3 upon reapplying or do I have to repeat phase 2 ? Strangely enough no one could give me an answer on Saturday. I also couldn't seem to find an answer in this.
Thanks
Guest
Posts: n/a
Pay another selection fee and you will find out no doubt!
Regarding Arizona, I would guess in the next few years the whole of training will be done in Arizona, fuel substantially less and its maybe a third of the distance to travel so even cadet air fares and travel time are substantially reduced. The NZD has risen a lot in recent years agst the GBP and the cost in NZ would be substantially more and this has been eating into the bottom line as the HQ are based in the UK. Government incentives to local businesses would also play a part, I would expect the US to be able to give more incentives for a business to relocate than the NZ gov to retain an existing business.
If you read the contract you sign it says they can send you anywhere to complete your training and you have to comply so I would expect it would be chosen for you then made compulsory.
As with most of CTC they can reduce the schedule and bring the time down which in theory should bring the price down to the cadet but I would bet my hat there is no price reduction, this is extra margin for CTC by relocating operations to a more tax efficient and cost efficient base.
Its simply a capital investment as they are currently cash rich due to Private Equity Funding & a long term cost saving/profit increasing exercise.
Regarding Arizona, I would guess in the next few years the whole of training will be done in Arizona, fuel substantially less and its maybe a third of the distance to travel so even cadet air fares and travel time are substantially reduced. The NZD has risen a lot in recent years agst the GBP and the cost in NZ would be substantially more and this has been eating into the bottom line as the HQ are based in the UK. Government incentives to local businesses would also play a part, I would expect the US to be able to give more incentives for a business to relocate than the NZ gov to retain an existing business.
If you read the contract you sign it says they can send you anywhere to complete your training and you have to comply so I would expect it would be chosen for you then made compulsory.
As with most of CTC they can reduce the schedule and bring the time down which in theory should bring the price down to the cadet but I would bet my hat there is no price reduction, this is extra margin for CTC by relocating operations to a more tax efficient and cost efficient base.
Its simply a capital investment as they are currently cash rich due to Private Equity Funding & a long term cost saving/profit increasing exercise.
@Catalystman
What you are saying has neither basis nor evidence at all. CTC have made it quite clear that New Zealand and Phoenix will operate side by side. They are still investing heavily in New Zealand and have purpose built facilities both at the airport and for accommodation. Also - remember that not all of CTC's students come from the UK so for a large amount of them, New Zealand is closer than Phoenix. CTC brings a lot of money to the economy of Hamilton and the wider Waikato, so the incentive to keep CTC in the area is huge.
You're aversion to CTC is well known on these forums, and your experience can be tracked back through the various threads you have started/posted in, so I would advise anyone reading this to take what he's saying with a very large pinch of salt. If anyone wants a more balanced view of CTC in the recent past then please feel free to send me a private message.
You're aversion to CTC is well known on these forums, and your experience can be tracked back through the various threads you have started/posted in, so I would advise anyone reading this to take what he's saying with a very large pinch of salt. If anyone wants a more balanced view of CTC in the recent past then please feel free to send me a private message.
Guest
Posts: n/a
@planedrive
As with all posts including mine take it with a barrel of salt.
I do recommend CTC but ONLY if your on a sponsored/tagged scheme (I particularly recommend BA but competition is fierce), do your PPL while you apply to BA first and then second choice with the MPLs etc, I would go modular rather than Wings as even if you get a job through Wings, pay is sooooo low, you will need a 2nd job.
Okay so here is one for you to answer I am a student UK based (which is where the bulk of the 'customer' base is) what is the price difference between doing my CTC Wings course in the US which is 3 months shorter to doing it in NZ where its 3 months longer? Answer ZERO!
So I disagree its all about cost, most of the schemes are for UK airlines so why not train in the UK where you will fly in UK airspace in UK airports and indeed across the channel to expose yourself to continental routes where you will fly and have UK weather/ATC. One reason COST as the same that modular go to the US to hour build as its cheaper but then hang on is CTC cheaper because the flying is done abroad NOOOOOOOOOOOO its more expensive so I still cant figure out why you pay a double premium?! Yes, I can CTC charges UK prices (with CTC mark-up) in the US/NZ hence the only reason to pay this huge mark-up of around £25,000 is if you have a conditional job offer because with the likes of BA you will make it back within 2 years while the others on Wings are on in some cases I have heard are surviving on less than £75 a week once loan repayments have been taken into consideration. That is a horrible position for a pilot to be in charge of a low cost aircraft while Cash Taking Captains buy private planes for their enjoyment.CTC flies higher with private equity backing - Telegraph
I do recommend CTC but ONLY if your on a sponsored/tagged scheme (I particularly recommend BA but competition is fierce), do your PPL while you apply to BA first and then second choice with the MPLs etc, I would go modular rather than Wings as even if you get a job through Wings, pay is sooooo low, you will need a 2nd job.
Okay so here is one for you to answer I am a student UK based (which is where the bulk of the 'customer' base is) what is the price difference between doing my CTC Wings course in the US which is 3 months shorter to doing it in NZ where its 3 months longer? Answer ZERO!
So I disagree its all about cost, most of the schemes are for UK airlines so why not train in the UK where you will fly in UK airspace in UK airports and indeed across the channel to expose yourself to continental routes where you will fly and have UK weather/ATC. One reason COST as the same that modular go to the US to hour build as its cheaper but then hang on is CTC cheaper because the flying is done abroad NOOOOOOOOOOOO its more expensive so I still cant figure out why you pay a double premium?! Yes, I can CTC charges UK prices (with CTC mark-up) in the US/NZ hence the only reason to pay this huge mark-up of around £25,000 is if you have a conditional job offer because with the likes of BA you will make it back within 2 years while the others on Wings are on in some cases I have heard are surviving on less than £75 a week once loan repayments have been taken into consideration. That is a horrible position for a pilot to be in charge of a low cost aircraft while Cash Taking Captains buy private planes for their enjoyment.CTC flies higher with private equity backing - Telegraph
@Catalystman
Why would you recommend a company that you so publicly slated for being sloppy and disorganized in another recent (now closed so I can't take exact quotes) thread?
Of course the FPP and the various MPL's provide better security of the final job, BUT 98% of all Wings cadets that graduate successfully have been placed with a partner airline - which in the end is what you are training for, is it not? As for your suggestion that you will need a second job if you are only a lowly Wings Cadet on your way to Easyjet - perhaps you should take a read of this article from BALPA last year.
https://www.balpa.org/News-and-campa...N-EASYJET.aspx
I wouldn't say that with £38,000pa plus repayment of your £69,000 security bond over x number of years, many people would feel the need to take a second job. Of course I cannot comment on some of the other airlines but I'm sure people like @Bealzebub will be able to comment on the airline they have particular knowledge of. Personally I know no recent Wings graduates that have needed a second job.
Finally, if you had made it to New Zealand, you would see that your comment about the UK being the primary market is not really true. I would say that about 1/2 of the Cadet population of CTC is British with the remainder made up of citizens from Hong Kong, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, Australia, New Zealand and most noticeably the Japanese, who send out similar (albeit slightly smaller) numbers as the UK.
Of course the FPP and the various MPL's provide better security of the final job, BUT 98% of all Wings cadets that graduate successfully have been placed with a partner airline - which in the end is what you are training for, is it not? As for your suggestion that you will need a second job if you are only a lowly Wings Cadet on your way to Easyjet - perhaps you should take a read of this article from BALPA last year.
https://www.balpa.org/News-and-campa...N-EASYJET.aspx
I wouldn't say that with £38,000pa plus repayment of your £69,000 security bond over x number of years, many people would feel the need to take a second job. Of course I cannot comment on some of the other airlines but I'm sure people like @Bealzebub will be able to comment on the airline they have particular knowledge of. Personally I know no recent Wings graduates that have needed a second job.
Finally, if you had made it to New Zealand, you would see that your comment about the UK being the primary market is not really true. I would say that about 1/2 of the Cadet population of CTC is British with the remainder made up of citizens from Hong Kong, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, Australia, New Zealand and most noticeably the Japanese, who send out similar (albeit slightly smaller) numbers as the UK.
Last edited by planedrive; 20th Feb 2014 at 09:39.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Planedrive, not quite correct and I would expect the cadets you know of personally will need/have needed financial support which perhaps was parental instead of a second job.
You do not start on that salary until after your 2nd year and there are no flight allowances on top until year 3. In the first year you receive £1200pm for 9 months and then an hourly rate for the remaining 3. This is circa 20k gross equivalent. You do not receive the security bond back.
If you didn't receive your parental support up front and so had to take a loan for the course the average repayment is approximately £1400pm.
As you can clearly see without some support you will either need a second job just to pay the loan, let alone eat, or take another loan/use credit cards to supplement your monthly income.
I am not putting anything down, and think it is one of the better opportunities over the longer term, but I do think anyone considering their options needs to have the correct facts.
BTW I throughly enjoyed my time with CTC, and while there will always be exceptions believe you get out what you put in.
You do not start on that salary until after your 2nd year and there are no flight allowances on top until year 3. In the first year you receive £1200pm for 9 months and then an hourly rate for the remaining 3. This is circa 20k gross equivalent. You do not receive the security bond back.
If you didn't receive your parental support up front and so had to take a loan for the course the average repayment is approximately £1400pm.
As you can clearly see without some support you will either need a second job just to pay the loan, let alone eat, or take another loan/use credit cards to supplement your monthly income.
I am not putting anything down, and think it is one of the better opportunities over the longer term, but I do think anyone considering their options needs to have the correct facts.
BTW I throughly enjoyed my time with CTC, and while there will always be exceptions believe you get out what you put in.