Oxford Aviation Training (OAT) - Who has got a job?
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Oxford have a FNPTII, Spose you're right Windsheer. Cant actually remember exactly what they promise, I suppose the 'Job or No Job' is a risk of training to be a pilot.
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Originally Posted by LeeH88
Cant actually remember exactly what they promise, I suppose the 'Job or No Job' is a risk of training to be a pilot.
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Lucifer i understand what you are saying but surely i can offer advice to people who are in the same position as i am, all i was saying is that after personal research i have found this to be the best school with value for money and after course help. A school that can offer zero hours to fATPL and a TR for roughly the same price as OAT etc is worth looking at.
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mcgoo, Id love to know why all of a sudden you're getting personal, and I dont see any need for the language, at that moment I couldnt remember exactly what they promised in regard to after you've finished training, apart from the Refresher course. Also, the comment about the job was separate from the other and its the same with any FTO, not just Oxford, grow up. When I want your opinion, I'll ask for it, lay off.
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... All they are interested in is your money, has nobody understood that?
O.. are not a charity that train pilots for the sake of it, they are there to make money on your back, they are a business.
One way for them to make their business is to advertise a £60 k course (which ends up at £100k) and claim that you will get a job at the end of it thanks to them (and their contacts, reputation, etc...). How would they be able to "SELL" a £100k course if there was not the possibility of a job at the end? Nobody would fork out that amount of money otherwise!
Take a look at the story in Pilot ! What a great advert for them! (see another thread)....
Most of the time, their graduates will get a job with 200 hours (what makes them better than any other CPL/IR dude is another question altogether....!!!). These freshly qualified pilots will show the rest of the world how good the O.. course is and how quickly they got a job thanks to O..!
However, O.. do not always "deliver", and those who are left by the side of the road, have to deal with a huge debt and no job to pay the money back.
For these guys and girls, O.. have failed!
I do, and at the same time, I do not feel sorry for them. I understand they have a huge debt, but, in the first instance, what makes them think that training at O.. makes them better than the rest of the world? The licence, as far as I know, is exactly the same one! They paid more money with the hope to get a job, they don't get it? Tough! The world out there is tough!
FNav
O.. are not a charity that train pilots for the sake of it, they are there to make money on your back, they are a business.
One way for them to make their business is to advertise a £60 k course (which ends up at £100k) and claim that you will get a job at the end of it thanks to them (and their contacts, reputation, etc...). How would they be able to "SELL" a £100k course if there was not the possibility of a job at the end? Nobody would fork out that amount of money otherwise!
Take a look at the story in Pilot ! What a great advert for them! (see another thread)....
Most of the time, their graduates will get a job with 200 hours (what makes them better than any other CPL/IR dude is another question altogether....!!!). These freshly qualified pilots will show the rest of the world how good the O.. course is and how quickly they got a job thanks to O..!
However, O.. do not always "deliver", and those who are left by the side of the road, have to deal with a huge debt and no job to pay the money back.
For these guys and girls, O.. have failed!
I do, and at the same time, I do not feel sorry for them. I understand they have a huge debt, but, in the first instance, what makes them think that training at O.. makes them better than the rest of the world? The licence, as far as I know, is exactly the same one! They paid more money with the hope to get a job, they don't get it? Tough! The world out there is tough!
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A school that can offer zero hours to fATPL and a TR for roughly the same price as OAT etc is worth looking at.
Also, Cabair do it £8000 cheaper......
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Originally Posted by LeeH88
mcgoo, Id love to know why all of a sudden you're getting personal, and I dont see any need for the language, at that moment I couldnt remember exactly what they promised in regard to after you've finished training, apart from the Refresher course. Also, the comment about the job was separate from the other and its the same with any FTO, not just Oxford, grow up. When I want your opinion, I'll ask for it, lay off.
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It's not all bad at OAT, learning to fly is a massive financial risk anywhere.
Guys you really must ensure you don't base your final decision with these schools based on this forum! There is some valuble information here. There are also many who like giving "advice" with no experience at all. Oxford push you extremely hard to pass everything first time to the extent that its not acceptable not to. This looks good on the CV, as does the Oxford name, no-one can disagree with that otherwise debates like this wouldn't exist!
I went through Oxford and got a job very quickly. However, I was very lucky. I have friends in a much worse off situation than me. Saying that, no-one on my course was left out completely.
The guys that are struggling with them. Ring the careers guys and keep on and on at them, don't be rude but ensure you are considered at the next recommendations board. They're perfectly understanding, however, when you start Oxford, there are no promises made and certainly no garunteed jobs.
No flying school has a 100% hit record, in searching for one, you have to consider where you are maximising your chances of landing that job. It's really important to have somewhere to go and earn a lot of mone in the case that thewre is a downturn in recruitment within our volatile industry.
Best of luck to all...happy thorough research!
I went through Oxford and got a job very quickly. However, I was very lucky. I have friends in a much worse off situation than me. Saying that, no-one on my course was left out completely.
The guys that are struggling with them. Ring the careers guys and keep on and on at them, don't be rude but ensure you are considered at the next recommendations board. They're perfectly understanding, however, when you start Oxford, there are no promises made and certainly no garunteed jobs.
No flying school has a 100% hit record, in searching for one, you have to consider where you are maximising your chances of landing that job. It's really important to have somewhere to go and earn a lot of mone in the case that thewre is a downturn in recruitment within our volatile industry.
Best of luck to all...happy thorough research!
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"This looks good on the CV, as does the Oxford name"
First time passes do look good on your CV. The Oxford name has neither positive or negative effect on your CV. It's not a case of 'our name + your CV = job done'. That's marketing
at its finest. Apparently, Flybe don't even look at OAT low-hour graduates if they don't have a recommendation. The recommendation helps for sure.
"Oxford push you extremely hard to pass everything to the extent that it's unacceptable not to"
How is this different from any other FTO?
The reason this is debated so much is that people who spend less money, even if they do another integrated course or modular it doesn't matter (they're all cheaper than OAT), get the same jobs as those who pay £80k and maybe a £20k TR on top.
"No flying school has a 100% hit record"
CTC have the best graduate placement from any FTO, and they would be up around the 100% mark with their Wings Cadets.
"You have to consider where you are maximising your chances of landing that job"
If you do another integrated course you have the exact same chance of landing a job, modular perhaps has slightly less.
"It's really important to have somewhere to go and earn a lot of money in case that there is a downturn in recruitment"
Not sure what exactly your point is?
First time passes do look good on your CV. The Oxford name has neither positive or negative effect on your CV. It's not a case of 'our name + your CV = job done'. That's marketing
at its finest. Apparently, Flybe don't even look at OAT low-hour graduates if they don't have a recommendation. The recommendation helps for sure."Oxford push you extremely hard to pass everything to the extent that it's unacceptable not to"
How is this different from any other FTO?
The reason this is debated so much is that people who spend less money, even if they do another integrated course or modular it doesn't matter (they're all cheaper than OAT), get the same jobs as those who pay £80k and maybe a £20k TR on top.
"No flying school has a 100% hit record"
CTC have the best graduate placement from any FTO, and they would be up around the 100% mark with their Wings Cadets.
"You have to consider where you are maximising your chances of landing that job"
If you do another integrated course you have the exact same chance of landing a job, modular perhaps has slightly less.
"It's really important to have somewhere to go and earn a lot of money in case that there is a downturn in recruitment"
Not sure what exactly your point is?
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I spent 12 yeras looking at FTO's. I started in 1993 when the market was really bad. I have seen them come and go, usually with peoples money who paid upfront.
Never do this...Cabair / Grabair are known for this (p###ing people off and not refunding money). You are the customer!
I too went on an Oxford Modular Seminar. What a pile of c##p. I managed to get a free landing fee after speaking to 3 people. This was their first test. The room was full with people from all walks of life, especially young lads speaking loudly as if they were TRE's. Generally the ones who speak the loudest, know the least. I just walked through the room eating the sarnies (nice for a free lunch...smoked salmon) and listeninig to peoples comments. That was enough for me. The sales pitch was excessive and who wants to sit in a PA28, with no air con in the desert. No thanks.
Cabair told me that they would recommend me (mod) alongside the int. guys. That's fair, and complete tosh.
Avoid all the bull and pop into PAT Bournemouth. Linda, Anthony and the Fat Controller will put you on the right path for the IR/CPL, with no hidden extras. The instructors are all career guys most ex. SFT (the best at years ago). pat.uk.c#m
Bournemouth is great for exams too. You can normally get them within a few days. Compare that to 2 weeks at Cranfield, where the controller thinks the pilots are landing in his back garden. That guy needs a CRM course before an accident happens.
Do the ppl somewhere fun in the UK and enjoy the hour building. Go where you want to go, especially into France.
At the end of the day there are over 40 FTO to choose from. Visit the ones who are good on the phone and indeed answer the phone at all, send prompt info and give you one to one time. You will get a feeling when you walk in, but visit twice to be sure. Look at the SIM as well.
FNPT II is the way forward. Doing it all on the aircraft is a cop out for them. It is too hard for you to master the hold without the benefit of nil wind, calm conditions, etc..to begin with, never mind your first route. If the foundations are poor, you will go well over your time. That's another thing; allow an extra few thousand for an emergency.
Never do this...Cabair / Grabair are known for this (p###ing people off and not refunding money). You are the customer!
I too went on an Oxford Modular Seminar. What a pile of c##p. I managed to get a free landing fee after speaking to 3 people. This was their first test. The room was full with people from all walks of life, especially young lads speaking loudly as if they were TRE's. Generally the ones who speak the loudest, know the least. I just walked through the room eating the sarnies (nice for a free lunch...smoked salmon) and listeninig to peoples comments. That was enough for me. The sales pitch was excessive and who wants to sit in a PA28, with no air con in the desert. No thanks.
Cabair told me that they would recommend me (mod) alongside the int. guys. That's fair, and complete tosh.
Avoid all the bull and pop into PAT Bournemouth. Linda, Anthony and the Fat Controller will put you on the right path for the IR/CPL, with no hidden extras. The instructors are all career guys most ex. SFT (the best at years ago). pat.uk.c#m
Bournemouth is great for exams too. You can normally get them within a few days. Compare that to 2 weeks at Cranfield, where the controller thinks the pilots are landing in his back garden. That guy needs a CRM course before an accident happens.
Do the ppl somewhere fun in the UK and enjoy the hour building. Go where you want to go, especially into France.
At the end of the day there are over 40 FTO to choose from. Visit the ones who are good on the phone and indeed answer the phone at all, send prompt info and give you one to one time. You will get a feeling when you walk in, but visit twice to be sure. Look at the SIM as well.
FNPT II is the way forward. Doing it all on the aircraft is a cop out for them. It is too hard for you to master the hold without the benefit of nil wind, calm conditions, etc..to begin with, never mind your first route. If the foundations are poor, you will go well over your time. That's another thing; allow an extra few thousand for an emergency.
Last edited by PAPI-74; 20th Jul 2006 at 20:35.
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Capt wanabee...are you an experienced cadet capable of offering advice in the field through which you have been?
Or are you a wanabe calling upon the likes of me to kindly share our experience with you?
I suspect niether.
However,
OAT has a gd track record, yes their name is a good thing, it got me a job.
They push you bloody hard...i didn't say other FTO's didnt...perhaps they do...perhaps they don't. i didnt bother doing more than one integrated course!
Have a backup job. Before I took the loan I ensured my plan had redundancy and I had access to a lucrative career if everything didn't go as planned. DON'T GAMBLE WITH NO BACKUP!
Mate...don't wind these wannabes up and scare the hell out of them. This is a risky game, one in which the most informed decision possible is necessary.
Those that have their head screwed on enough to invest up to 100 grand dont have time to read silly remarks that won't help them.
I plead that if you can be of use, have experience or require help with your decision. Consult us that have been through and can help from experience or help others with yours. If you are bitter for one reason or another, go elsewhere.
Or are you a wanabe calling upon the likes of me to kindly share our experience with you?
I suspect niether.
However,
OAT has a gd track record, yes their name is a good thing, it got me a job.
They push you bloody hard...i didn't say other FTO's didnt...perhaps they do...perhaps they don't. i didnt bother doing more than one integrated course!
Have a backup job. Before I took the loan I ensured my plan had redundancy and I had access to a lucrative career if everything didn't go as planned. DON'T GAMBLE WITH NO BACKUP!
Mate...don't wind these wannabes up and scare the hell out of them. This is a risky game, one in which the most informed decision possible is necessary.
Those that have their head screwed on enough to invest up to 100 grand dont have time to read silly remarks that won't help them.
I plead that if you can be of use, have experience or require help with your decision. Consult us that have been through and can help from experience or help others with yours. If you are bitter for one reason or another, go elsewhere.
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New FO,
I'm not trying to put anybody off. I think if you really want to become a pilot go for it. BUT, research all the possible options available. That's the whole point of my last post! My remarks are far from "silly". I'm pointing out the fact that other FTOs can match Oxford. If reading that there are other places to train that are just as good doesn't help people to make the "most informed decision possible", what does? Do you want everyone to read only about OAT? There was no bitterness in that post, I was merely pointing out alternatives. You didn't make the point clear in an earlier post to have a Plan B, and I completely agree you should have a Plan B, especially considering the risk involved.
Did you even read my post properly? I didn't once say not to go to Oxford. I pointed out that there are other options out there, that cost slightly less, with the same opportunities at the end. If someone feels that Oxford is the right place for them out of all the possible options, go to Oxford.
I'm not trying to put anybody off. I think if you really want to become a pilot go for it. BUT, research all the possible options available. That's the whole point of my last post! My remarks are far from "silly". I'm pointing out the fact that other FTOs can match Oxford. If reading that there are other places to train that are just as good doesn't help people to make the "most informed decision possible", what does? Do you want everyone to read only about OAT? There was no bitterness in that post, I was merely pointing out alternatives. You didn't make the point clear in an earlier post to have a Plan B, and I completely agree you should have a Plan B, especially considering the risk involved.
Did you even read my post properly? I didn't once say not to go to Oxford. I pointed out that there are other options out there, that cost slightly less, with the same opportunities at the end. If someone feels that Oxford is the right place for them out of all the possible options, go to Oxford.
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Has anyone considered that no-one really has experience of what getting £70-100k into debt to fund flight training at such a young age can actually have on your life?? (even those with respect who have gone through OAT in the past couple of years, have the debt today and are gainfully employeed in a shiny jet etc).
With the airline sponsored schemes only disappearing 5 years ago post Sept 11th am I right in assuming that prior to this no-one was getting themselves into this sort of debt to pursue training?? I don't know the answer to this its just a thought.
Just thinking that if you are say 20 years old... it will take you c10 years to pay back the £70-100k of debt. Post clearing the loan at the age of 30 you will then have a clean slate to start worrying about getting a mortgage... oh and start contributing more to your pension (work based DC schemes pay a pittance)... oh did I get married and now have to worry about school fees?? I wonder if the money spent will look like such great value for money then when compared to what your peers are up to?
These are the sort of things that would put me off.... its not just being able to make the repayments and walking into a job straight out of flight school, its all the things you can't afford for years and years that your peers who don't have such a burden will be enjoying. As such I worry that even those that have paid the huge price of integrated training today will not know the full cost to them for years to come. It certainly delays your ability to get onto the housing ladder which is tough enough already these days.
Its seems to me that the discussion on this forum is much more concerned with the "will the debt get me a job straight away" rather than the how will I look in 10 years once I have repaid the debt relative to my peers??.... maybe too much focus on the "value for money" during the 1-2 years spent training rather than will I think it was "value for money" in 10 years time.
I don't think I have seen one person post on this forum who went to Oxford more that 5 years ago that thinks £70-100k of debt isn't a huge price to pay for the little blue book. Although I think the majority would say Oxford is a good school). Certainly all of my mates who have been flying for 5-10 years describe it as a bonkers amount of cash to pay....
I've nothing against OAT, its an excellent organisation from what I have seen but £100k of debt at such a young age is a burden for a very very long time... looking back as a fresh faced lad I was stright out of school I certainly wouldn't have had a clue as to the financial restrictions that amount of debt would have placed on me for years and years post training so I'd be amazed if the majority of young wanabees are fully aware
(Apologies for being a bit off topic)
With the airline sponsored schemes only disappearing 5 years ago post Sept 11th am I right in assuming that prior to this no-one was getting themselves into this sort of debt to pursue training?? I don't know the answer to this its just a thought.
Just thinking that if you are say 20 years old... it will take you c10 years to pay back the £70-100k of debt. Post clearing the loan at the age of 30 you will then have a clean slate to start worrying about getting a mortgage... oh and start contributing more to your pension (work based DC schemes pay a pittance)... oh did I get married and now have to worry about school fees?? I wonder if the money spent will look like such great value for money then when compared to what your peers are up to?
These are the sort of things that would put me off.... its not just being able to make the repayments and walking into a job straight out of flight school, its all the things you can't afford for years and years that your peers who don't have such a burden will be enjoying. As such I worry that even those that have paid the huge price of integrated training today will not know the full cost to them for years to come. It certainly delays your ability to get onto the housing ladder which is tough enough already these days.
Its seems to me that the discussion on this forum is much more concerned with the "will the debt get me a job straight away" rather than the how will I look in 10 years once I have repaid the debt relative to my peers??.... maybe too much focus on the "value for money" during the 1-2 years spent training rather than will I think it was "value for money" in 10 years time.
I don't think I have seen one person post on this forum who went to Oxford more that 5 years ago that thinks £70-100k of debt isn't a huge price to pay for the little blue book. Although I think the majority would say Oxford is a good school). Certainly all of my mates who have been flying for 5-10 years describe it as a bonkers amount of cash to pay....
I've nothing against OAT, its an excellent organisation from what I have seen but £100k of debt at such a young age is a burden for a very very long time... looking back as a fresh faced lad I was stright out of school I certainly wouldn't have had a clue as to the financial restrictions that amount of debt would have placed on me for years and years post training so I'd be amazed if the majority of young wanabees are fully aware
(Apologies for being a bit off topic)
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Skintman
Grass Strip Basher
Everyone agrees that the level of financial committment to become a trained pilot after 9/11 are huge, but this is the reality of the current economic climate. The wages for newly qualified commercial jet pilots are nearly double those of new general graduates. So it's not all doom and gloom on the financial front.
Also even if a fresh 20 year old does not understand the implications of a large loan, the banks won't give one to him anyway. It will need to be secured by some equity, either on a house or other items of value. So those doing the signing will sure look into it in detail. Usually generous parents.
Everyone agrees that the level of financial committment to become a trained pilot after 9/11 are huge, but this is the reality of the current economic climate. The wages for newly qualified commercial jet pilots are nearly double those of new general graduates. So it's not all doom and gloom on the financial front.
Also even if a fresh 20 year old does not understand the implications of a large loan, the banks won't give one to him anyway. It will need to be secured by some equity, either on a house or other items of value. So those doing the signing will sure look into it in detail. Usually generous parents.
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Originally Posted by Grass strip basher
Has anyone considered that no-one really has experience of what getting £70-100k into debt to fund flight training at such a young age can actually have on your life??....
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Having generous parents is very nice, but having say £100 knocking around is another thing, I sold my house and downsized to pay for my training.
If my children wanted to fly I would no doubt help them anyway I could, however I would be very careful about putting my house on the line to pay for any training, remember most people who use their house as security for £100 or more must have lots of equity in their house or paid off their mortgage.
I do believe that you posted similar remarks a few months ago on pprune.
FF
If my children wanted to fly I would no doubt help them anyway I could, however I would be very careful about putting my house on the line to pay for any training, remember most people who use their house as security for £100 or more must have lots of equity in their house or paid off their mortgage.
I do believe that you posted similar remarks a few months ago on pprune.
FF
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wages for newly qualified commercial jet pilots are nearly double those of new general graduates.
If you were to compare rates with a graduate job (i.e. on a grad programme rather than just any job a grad can get that is not specifically for a grad), graduate jobs start on average somewhere near £22k.
If you are to include all EU operators who recruit fresh fATPLs, I reckon they would be comparable to graduate salaries, certainly not double (i.e. £44k).