Oxford Aviation Training (OAT) - Who has got a job?

[rons22]

hi

i heard that one or two guys landed jobs in BA

[adwjenk]

Well according to there website 35 grads landed jobs with BA last year!!!

But anyway im starting in July and i would be intrested to hear students who are or arent in employment!!
Also if there where any young grads around the age of 19/20 who have obtained airline jobs!

Thanks in advance also feel free to add you comments about Oxford, but only if you've been on the intergrated course at Oxford!!

ADWJENK

[fly-half]

I was on an integrated course at Oxford and after I finished in September 2003, it took me 16 months before I was fortunate to get my first flying job. I know of FIVE people from our course who are still looking for their first job. Timing is everything. The recruitment which is going on at the moment favours graduates with more recent flying experience, even hiring people before they have even finished the course at Oxford! The cyclic behaviour of the aviation industry means that you may be lucky or unlucky with regards to the jobs market once you are a graduate yourself. In my opinion Oxford are the best but please, don't you dare believe everything they tell you!

[lebroix]

I did the Oxford integrated course. I finished the MCC/JOC in September last year and got an offer yesterday to fly the 737 , so that's four months. Of the people on my course who I know of (6 including myself) 5 have jobs / are in a holding pool, all for jet positions. The other chap has had a couple of interviews but nothing concrete as yet. There were at least double this number on the course but I don't know how the rest are doing.

As has been said already on the thread, timing is everything and the state of the job market when you finish your MCC is the biggest factor on getting that airline job. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to accurately predict what the state of the job market will be in about 18 months time, when you would be looking. When I started the course (spring 2004) there were no jobs about, and the pprune masses told me quite forcefully that I was insane to waste my money on flight training. There are a relatively large number of jobs about at the moment (though sadly not enough to go around) but you can pretty much assume that the job market will be different when you get there, maybe better, maybe worse. Unfortunately its a case of you make your choices and take your chances.

I couldn't say "Oxford is the place to go" because I obviously did all my training at the one place so cannot compare it to anywhere else. All I can say is that I was happy with what I got and felt that for me, I made the right decision. There were the odd few niggles here and there, but nothing to really get worried about. They delivered on all their promises, there were no hidden costs, everything was completed on time, and they got me my interview. What more can you ask for?

[Dozza2k]

we graduated last may/june. about half of our 20 employed now.

[davepearsall]

It amazes me how you watch these programs on TV and they say that the amount of traffic over Britains skys is going to have doubled by 2020.

I find this hard to believe when people are actually finding it hard to get employed. It seems a bit of a contradiction.

Is it the case that more foreigncompanies are going to be heading to Britain but our airline industry is plodding along with the inflation of any other industry.

Can anyone shed any light on this.

CONFUSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .com

[no sponsor]

There's no contradiction. The fact of the matter is that there are too many ATPL(F) qualified individuals chasing after the few jobs that are available. I can only speak for the UK training market, but when I did my training, there were an awful lot of people training with me. My ground school training establishment was running courses for over 50 people per month. My CPL/IR school (one of the smaller ones) was training 6 people per month. This is only the UK. You have the Dutch, Spanish, German and Scandinavian training establishments, all pumping people onto the job market. And, because the UK low cost market is doing so well, those folks are all headed here.

Although it has reduced, HSBC in the UK were handing out loans like they were chocolate biscuits, but it is still enabling people to cut short their route to training. In the past, good old 'working for a few years' to build up some money has been eliminated in favour of get-your-qualifications now, pay-later mentality. OATS, Cabair & Jerez all looked into the abyss post-911, but now they are safe for a few more years.

So if Ryanair are taking 25 new 737-800s this year, this in reality equates to around 150 new pilots. Consider that a fair proportion will be direct entry Captains, then you have at best 100 new FOs? Only an example of one airline, but given the output of the training industry there is a chronic oversupply.

[scroggs]

Yep, spot on NS. There are far too many people being trained by the FTOs for the relatively limited numbers of jobs on offer - many of which, anyway, are aimed at more experienced pilots. Now they are in short supply, partly because people are often quite reluctant to move once they've got their feet under the carpet at a company and now have a place on the seniority list, command on the horizon, and (at last) some kind of financial future!

The fact that people with some experience are difficult to come by means that more airline jobs get opened up to ab-initio pilots, but the numbers will never be sufficient to absorb the output from all the FTOs. Even with all the other users of commercially-qualified pilots brought into the equation, there simply aren't enough jobs for all those who wish to fly for a living - and then there are all the other countries within the EU to consider, none of whose aviation scenes are half as healthy as UK. That's why companies here can still get away with demanding that you pay for type ratings etc.

Sad but true.

Scroggs

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by no sponsor

So if Ryanair are taking 25 new 737-800s this year, this in reality equates to around 150 new pilots.

If they need a captain and F/O for each airframe, that would be 50 new seats to fill. Multiply this by the crewing ratio per airframe (I have no idea what ratio Ryanair use, but a ballpark of 6 crews per aircraft would be my guess), that makes 6 x 50 = 300 pilots to crew the 25 aircraft. Now as this is fleet expansion, that means these are ALL new posts, be they for direct entry captains, promoted current F/Os (who will in turn need to be replaced) or new hire F/Os. So I would argue that means around 150 new hire F/Os AT LEAST, possibly (and more likely) more if you promote some internal F/Os to fill the new left seats.

Just my thoughts on the numbers quoted.

PP

[Pilot Pete]

Unfortunately that's the free market economy...

PP

[no sponsor]

OK Pilot Pete, I used 3 crews per aircraft as my guess.

[mad_jock]

Dosn't anyone else find it a bit scary that Dozza2k course has only 50% of them employed after over 6 months?

In what is proberly the best hiring enviroment which has occured since pre 2000.

[scroggs]

Originally Posted by Superpilot

What happens in 5-10 years time when most captains have retired / moved on to line training and all the current Senior FO's have achieved their command? Will airlines still be looking for "experienced" FO's to fill in the gaps? Which "experienced" FO's dare I ask? Where are they? Where will they have gained their experience? Are these the same FO's they didn't bother paying any attention to when they were low hours, just out of training, eager and bursting to get started?

I don't really understand your point. There may be people unsuccessful in getting jobs, but the airlines are taking on plenty right now, and these new hires will be the senior FOs and new captains in years to come.

It is precisely for this reason that this industry, in terms of employment prospects is cyclic. Sadly, right now established FTO's (who lets face it are made up of ex airline captains, workers and management anyway) have exploited the market. They are cornering the training market by using their links with their old airlines and taking advantage of this to offer rip-off "integrated" courses. BA and Oxford is just one example. By doing this they are discriminating against the poor from working class backgrounds especially. It's all about greed and certain people should be ashamed of themselves.

The industry is not cyclic because of hiring problems. It is cyclic because it depends on surplus disposable income in the pockets of its customers. When economies are struggling, travel - leisure and business - is one of the first things to go out of the window, and airlines take a big hit.

You appear to be on some kind of 1950's era 'class warfare' kick. The 'workers versus the bosses', a cause usually espoused by those who've never done a day's work in their lives. This is not the place for that kind of politicking - there are plenty of other more appropriate places. But let me give you a word of advice before you travel much further down this road - know your subject. If you don't, you will be torn apart by those who do. On the evidence of this post, you know very little and have assumed an awful lot. Not a good basis for a poilitical campaign. Your heart may be in the right place, but your arguments have to be based on fact, not fiction.

Scroggs

[Re-Heat]

It is precisely for this reason that this industry, in terms of employment prospects is cyclic.

It simply is not cyclic due to any exploitation or poor recruitment policies. It is cyclic due to (a) interest rates and their effect on the borrowings people make in order to fund holidays, or (b) paring back on travelling and associated expense by companies upon whom this business depends - whatever your opinion of big business might be.

They are cornering the training market by using their links with their old airlines and taking advantage of this to offer rip-off "integrated" courses. BA and Oxford is just one example.

Hardly - many have succeeded from non-integrated backgrounds, and the company with whom you sign your contract at OATS does not appear to be making money hand over fist judging from their financial statements, even in a good market for them, and after huge investment from BBA plc, the parent.

By doing this they are discriminating against the poor from working class backgrounds especially.

How exactly? Most people are financing these courses through loans or earning money prior to training. Sure a minority may rely on parent's money, but this is a market economy that does not and should not penalise success, else the spirit of entrepreneurialism that drives the economy and keeps you in a job will die with it. Where would many airlines be today without entrepreneurs? Would you deny a successful businessman's any attempt to give their offspring the best in this world. Yours is a position of envy and a hugely dangerous idea upon which to base your views, if you do indeed want job generation.

There are more than sufficient leg-ups for working class in this country and selection certainly does not prefer establishment characters in this business. An internal BA study when nepotism was once presumed actually proved that offspring of BA staff were less likely to be accepted into flying positions than newcomers. Indeed as urban legend would have it, a child of a friend of Lord King's was rejected, which could not be reversed by him despite his attempts to do so.

If you actually sought out backgrounds of many of today's successful pilots, I think that you will be surprised at how diverse and unprivileged many of them actually are.

BA's policy on integrated is not inflexible - others have and are taken from modular courses including CTC - however it has been long-established to prefer integrated course candidates not for the old boy network, but as being under constant pressure to take the course at a single pressurised pace was deemed to be best representative of real operational life. Although modular courses may be booked back-to-back to recreate that intensity (for example if you were to recreate the CTC course at UK modular schools), it was determined to be far less likely that students not subject to the pressure of an integrated course would be capable of succeeding in minimum hours at the type rating level.

You may disagree with that, however it was based upon BA's experience of modular students at the time. That may well be outdated, but it remains a preference even where non-integrated students are being taken.

The different methods and types of courses just adds to the problems. Integrated is just full-time modular rebadged by clever marketing bods.

They are not however, they are authorised by the CAA to mix the groundschool and flying together for example, to create a greater intensity of training that is achieved by back-to-back modular, and to achieve a consistent level of instruction from hour 1 to IR.

Because of certain greedy b******* I can't but if I could I would make the good old salary-bonded type rating the only way. I'd abolish these immoral 'pay to fly' schemes and up front payment for type ratings and make everybody do the same type of course.

These schemes proliferate as there are so many fools whom take on too much debt and as a result are desperate to achieve that first job. Financial analysis of the implications of training at such a cost take a far third place to unproven delusions of ability and blind (or rather unrealistic, as I would not condemn such a feeling) passion.

Blame blind passion, but not a system that does work for many - many whom do not have mega-$ in the bank.

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by no sponsor

OK Pilot Pete, I used 3 crews per aircraft as my guess.

Fair enough, but I would have thought that it would be more than 3, possibly less than my 6 though......anyone?

PP

[haughtney1]

Depends on how hard you work your crews, have heard between 5 - 7 crews per a/c, the 5 crew airline flew about 85 hrs PCM, and the 7 crew around 70 hrs PCM

[Superpilot]

Well seems like I'm more full of passion than facts right now, but you can hardly blame me in this current climate. Thanks for putting me right on many counts.

[Quincy M.E.]

Bozzato

If you are who I think you are, I was on the same interview at OAT for the TC sponsorship; another Lancashire bod.

Good luck with the course. Failing to raise any money I am still firmly on the ground but in the middle of ATC applicaiton, interview in a few weeks!

[scroggs]

Originally Posted by Superpilot

Well seems like I'm more full of passion than facts right now, but you can hardly blame me in this current climate. Thanks for putting me right on many counts.

No problem. Put that much passion into getting a job and you'll have offers all over the place!

Scroggs

[Akuji]

Jobs after Going to Oxford

Hi all! just wondering, those who went to Oxford how much help were you given to get a job?

Thanks