Oxford Aviation Training (OAT) - Who has got a job?
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I haven't been to OAT.. but from having gone through the training process, met a lot of other wanabees and spent more time than I'd like to admit on this forum I'd say that your observations are very accurate. With OAT you are paying a (very large) premium for a small possiblilty of being recommended to an airline. I'd also say that if you are of the calibre to be recommended by OAT then you'll probably be capable of getting on well elsewhere (CTC, GECAT, finding a job off you're own back etc having done a modular course).
I hear the training at OAT is good. And if it suits you personally to do your training full time at a place where everything is organised for you from start to finish... and you feel it is worth paying an extra 30k or whatever for a slight increase in job success then go for OAT.
My thoughts are that OAT's 'Integrated" course is trading off the back of it's reputation based in a previous, now defunct, system. But if it suits you, then go for it.
I'm sure some guys with firsthand knowledge of the place will be able to give you some more direct info.
I hear the training at OAT is good. And if it suits you personally to do your training full time at a place where everything is organised for you from start to finish... and you feel it is worth paying an extra 30k or whatever for a slight increase in job success then go for OAT.
My thoughts are that OAT's 'Integrated" course is trading off the back of it's reputation based in a previous, now defunct, system. But if it suits you, then go for it.
I'm sure some guys with firsthand knowledge of the place will be able to give you some more direct info.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
It seems that many people people (not refering to you Chocks) who post on Oxford threads either have an axe to grind with OAT or have some petty dislike, maybe leading to people believing that there are larger numbers of disaffected former OAT customers than there really are.
The fact of the matter is that if you measure up (ie gain a good exam average 80%-85%+, and reasonable skill test results) you will in all likelyhood get a recommendation sooner or later. Once you've got the shot at an interview it is solely down to you, OAT have done all they can.
You can always go modular at OAT or Cabair if you want to hedge your bets.
sr
Flying is about ability to fly and not ability to pay! Just because you've forked out enormous sums does not, and should not, guarantee you a place in in the RHS. To get that lucrative job you need to be not only highly motivated but possess a modicum of ability and a personality that presents well at interview. There's no point in being technically proficient if you possess the people skills of Gollum!
Back your oiginal question: does OAT "send" people for interview? NO! OAT may recommend someone for interview but ultimately BA choose themseleves who to interview. I have a good mate who passed his IR last week at OAT who has an interview with BA ext week - up to him now whether he gets a job or not.
Finally, I'm not sure hw you can rate the quality of training at OAT compared with other providers. We all pass the same eams and same flight tests. Some of the instructors at OAT have instructed at other schools whilst others are merely killing time before the airlines. The upshot is that OAT teaches to the same standards as every one else using the same pool of instructors.
Back your oiginal question: does OAT "send" people for interview? NO! OAT may recommend someone for interview but ultimately BA choose themseleves who to interview. I have a good mate who passed his IR last week at OAT who has an interview with BA ext week - up to him now whether he gets a job or not.
Finally, I'm not sure hw you can rate the quality of training at OAT compared with other providers. We all pass the same eams and same flight tests. Some of the instructors at OAT have instructed at other schools whilst others are merely killing time before the airlines. The upshot is that OAT teaches to the same standards as every one else using the same pool of instructors.
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I very rarely post on PPrune I just read others posts. One of the observations I have is that the majority of people who post about Oxford, know someone who has heard that.... and talk as if they are knowledgable.
The only people qualified to comment on what Oxford does for Oxford students in finding them a job and how they have been treated are by definition ex Oxford students who have been through the careers department.
Am I an Oxford student, yes, do I have a job no but thats because of some personal bad luck the rest of my class bar one were employed within six months and all are flying 737s A320s and 757s. Are you still responsible for getting your own job yes, but what a fantastic thing it is to receive an email out of the blue stating "you have been put forward to airline X expect a call within the week" and a few days later get a call calling you for interview from an airline that publicly states they dont recruit low hours. All this when you are getting depressed from no response from airlines that you send your c.v. to.
The last post about flying ability is very simplistic and not realistic we are not in utopia where no one is influenced by personality, reputation, contacts or politics. The majority of experienced crew will admit they dont consider themselves the most skilled aviators in the world or thought they were the best candidate when they got jobs it came down to a combination of personality, contacts, luck and preperation for the selection process. They probably laugh at the squabbleing between people with 250 500 1000 hours which in the big picture is still little to no experience, there are some shocking pilots with 250 hours and still some with 5000 hours. When conducting an interview or sim check they dont ask you to demonstrate your flying ability (its taken as a given) just your non technical skills; co-operation, leardership, situational awareness and decision making. Every and anything you can do to increase your chances of getting a job quicker and with a higher starting wage to pay back your loan the better. Whether thats use the reputation of the school and the contacts that come with that reputation or the self confidence from the knowledge the training you received you thought was excellent and enabled you to get the best possible results that you could get. No one that has been to Oxford claims that Oxfords training is better because they cant comment on that, all they know is their personal experience, I for one was happy with my experience and thought the training I received was excellent with regard to both pilot and engineering training.
Which ever path you choose have the confidence in the decision you made and see it through.
Edited due to thread being merged now in thread where much if not all of the above has already been covered.
The only people qualified to comment on what Oxford does for Oxford students in finding them a job and how they have been treated are by definition ex Oxford students who have been through the careers department.
Am I an Oxford student, yes, do I have a job no but thats because of some personal bad luck the rest of my class bar one were employed within six months and all are flying 737s A320s and 757s. Are you still responsible for getting your own job yes, but what a fantastic thing it is to receive an email out of the blue stating "you have been put forward to airline X expect a call within the week" and a few days later get a call calling you for interview from an airline that publicly states they dont recruit low hours. All this when you are getting depressed from no response from airlines that you send your c.v. to.
The last post about flying ability is very simplistic and not realistic we are not in utopia where no one is influenced by personality, reputation, contacts or politics. The majority of experienced crew will admit they dont consider themselves the most skilled aviators in the world or thought they were the best candidate when they got jobs it came down to a combination of personality, contacts, luck and preperation for the selection process. They probably laugh at the squabbleing between people with 250 500 1000 hours which in the big picture is still little to no experience, there are some shocking pilots with 250 hours and still some with 5000 hours. When conducting an interview or sim check they dont ask you to demonstrate your flying ability (its taken as a given) just your non technical skills; co-operation, leardership, situational awareness and decision making. Every and anything you can do to increase your chances of getting a job quicker and with a higher starting wage to pay back your loan the better. Whether thats use the reputation of the school and the contacts that come with that reputation or the self confidence from the knowledge the training you received you thought was excellent and enabled you to get the best possible results that you could get. No one that has been to Oxford claims that Oxfords training is better because they cant comment on that, all they know is their personal experience, I for one was happy with my experience and thought the training I received was excellent with regard to both pilot and engineering training.
Which ever path you choose have the confidence in the decision you made and see it through.
Edited due to thread being merged now in thread where much if not all of the above has already been covered.
Last edited by PaulW; 9th Oct 2006 at 11:54.
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Ham phisted
I am not critisizing or questioning you, this is just a real example of your following points. Actually, i agree with your perspective.
A friend of mine with a major UK carrier asked someone high up in recruitment about getting me an interview assessment etc based on a session (albeit a jolly with one of their training capatins). He was yold they only take integrated students from oxford. When my friend said ' but what about ability'. The reply was "ability is not company policy".
I trained at Oxford (modular). Now don't get me wrong about integrated people. I beer'ed with them all the time and the majority were great. BUT, there were a few Gollums with egotistical, spoilt attitudes with absolutely no social skills to display if thier life depended on it.................Yes, you know whats coming, they were the first to get a job.
In that instance, I blame the people recruiting them.
In my opinion, not all HR departments have people who are appropriately trained. And just because you are an airline pilot does not men you have good people skills, can make good 'needs analysis' prfiles of people, or are a naturally good junior yet alone senior manager.
Flying is about ability to fly and not ability to pay
modicum of ability and a personality that presents well at interview. There's no point in being technically proficient if you possess the people skills of Gollum!
In that instance, I blame the people recruiting them.
In my opinion, not all HR departments have people who are appropriately trained. And just because you are an airline pilot does not men you have good people skills, can make good 'needs analysis' prfiles of people, or are a naturally good junior yet alone senior manager.
Ex-modular myself and have previously had a long career culminating in a role as a senior manager of both aircraft and people so feel reasonably positioned to comment. Furthermore, now employed by BA as a (very) junior FO!
The comment regarding ability to fly was frivolous but was a mechanism to demonstrate that just because you've paid a lot of money to attend a school such as OAT, there is no automatic right to a seat in a jet. BA interviews have no technical content because they are looking for interpersonal team skills and attitude and not single-seat sky gods. In a challenging situation, company SOPs will normally have P2 flying while the captain uses his experience to manage the situation. During the first brief of a tour we normally emphasise that in demanding situations full use of automatics is encouraged. Believe me, I (more than most) realise that stick & throttle skills alone won't get you a job in an airline.
Note to self: refrain from using figures of speech in the future.
The comment regarding ability to fly was frivolous but was a mechanism to demonstrate that just because you've paid a lot of money to attend a school such as OAT, there is no automatic right to a seat in a jet. BA interviews have no technical content because they are looking for interpersonal team skills and attitude and not single-seat sky gods. In a challenging situation, company SOPs will normally have P2 flying while the captain uses his experience to manage the situation. During the first brief of a tour we normally emphasise that in demanding situations full use of automatics is encouraged. Believe me, I (more than most) realise that stick & throttle skills alone won't get you a job in an airline.
Note to self: refrain from using figures of speech in the future.
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Ham-Phisted its nice to see that you are on the flight deck at BA being a modular student, contrary to what OAT would have us believe!
Last edited by mcgoo; 7th Oct 2006 at 18:58. Reason: typo
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Does FTE have the same job prospects of OAT...I mean...all those recommendations and interviews that OAT grads seem to get??...because OAT put a lot of emphasis on their 126 recruits this year...but I haven't seen that at FTE...
Do FTE grads get jobs within 7 months too??
HAppy flyings!!!
Do FTE grads get jobs within 7 months too??
HAppy flyings!!!
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correct, and if you play at the euroloto(the eurolooser), the problem is the same, lot of applicants, a few winners...
I tell you something, lot of pilots are not good.In my ex schools, most guys failed 2 times their IR.I passed mine first time, included my 14 written. in fact I bet guys from Oxford. I have been hired as a FI 2 weeks after being graduated from a very small school.Got in an airline later, and then lost my job due to 11/september
Schools does nothing wrong, it 's the students who were too bad.
they do not have the skill, are not serious, or simply lazy.
Some guys need 10 h for their solo flight, some pilots need 50 to 70 hours.Some pilots are never soloed regardless of how much money you spent.
Some pilots are freaking dangerous and should not have a commercial license but for money reason, they give you the blue license knowing you will never fly for an airline.
if you do a search, you will find some famous person who crashed , by exemple:Kennedy.
this is why, most guys are not selected.and here in Europe, we don't know very well Oxford. All we know, it is a town and they have a reputable university, but majorities of companies in the world don't care if you come from Oxford or from a smurfs' town...
I don't like pilots who have too much cash. they are usually arrogant and if one day I have to recruit pilots, I will do my best to put all Oxford CV in the bin.
I tell you something, lot of pilots are not good.In my ex schools, most guys failed 2 times their IR.I passed mine first time, included my 14 written. in fact I bet guys from Oxford. I have been hired as a FI 2 weeks after being graduated from a very small school.Got in an airline later, and then lost my job due to 11/september
Schools does nothing wrong, it 's the students who were too bad.
they do not have the skill, are not serious, or simply lazy.
Some guys need 10 h for their solo flight, some pilots need 50 to 70 hours.Some pilots are never soloed regardless of how much money you spent.
Some pilots are freaking dangerous and should not have a commercial license but for money reason, they give you the blue license knowing you will never fly for an airline.
if you do a search, you will find some famous person who crashed , by exemple:Kennedy.
this is why, most guys are not selected.and here in Europe, we don't know very well Oxford. All we know, it is a town and they have a reputable university, but majorities of companies in the world don't care if you come from Oxford or from a smurfs' town...
I don't like pilots who have too much cash. they are usually arrogant and if one day I have to recruit pilots, I will do my best to put all Oxford CV in the bin.
Last edited by dartagnan; 8th Oct 2006 at 12:46.
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dartagnan,
Just about all prospective pilots I have met seem pretty serious and competent. In fact nearly all the people I met who were doing their ATPLs the same time as me now have jobs with a variety of airlines. My IR examiner says that 80% of pilots pass first series and 40% pass first time.
However, after saying all that, I forget the programme as it was ages ago, but a BA Captain was interviewed on Radio 4 for a peice on the pilot 'shortage'. He said there is not a shortage of pilots, but there is a serious shortage of employable pilots. I think it is true that many stand little realistic chance of being employed as airline pilots.
Ham Phisted,
OAT modular course perchance? Could it be that the major selling point of OAT, Cabair and FTE graduation is training to known standard in a single environment with contiguous reliable student records? In contast the pick'n'mix modular guys probably don't have a verifiable training history. If so then employability probably has little to do with modular/integrated.
I tell you something, lot of pilots are not good.
However, after saying all that, I forget the programme as it was ages ago, but a BA Captain was interviewed on Radio 4 for a peice on the pilot 'shortage'. He said there is not a shortage of pilots, but there is a serious shortage of employable pilots. I think it is true that many stand little realistic chance of being employed as airline pilots.
Ham Phisted,
OAT modular course perchance? Could it be that the major selling point of OAT, Cabair and FTE graduation is training to known standard in a single environment with contiguous reliable student records? In contast the pick'n'mix modular guys probably don't have a verifiable training history. If so then employability probably has little to do with modular/integrated.
HWD
Nope. Didn't to Oxford. Went to different schools for PPL, IR, ATPLs, CPL & MCC. The "known standard" has nothing to do with Oxford or anywhere else for that matter - it's called the IRT!
Definitely agree on these points. Some people, I believe, have unrealistic expectations of their employability and may be able to achieve standard required for a CPL/IR but that doesn't make them suitable for a job in an airline environment.
Nope. Didn't to Oxford. Went to different schools for PPL, IR, ATPLs, CPL & MCC. The "known standard" has nothing to do with Oxford or anywhere else for that matter - it's called the IRT!
....there is a serious shortage of employable pilots. I think it is true that many stand little realistic chance of being employed as airline pilots.
If so then employability probably has little to do with modular/integrated.
If so then employability probably has little to do with modular/integrated.
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Ham Phisted. Absolutely right.
Oh, and do keep using figures of speech. Generally, its more to the point than the some of the rambling, verbose, idealistic nonsense that sometimes is posted by people with no social skills.
Oh, and do keep using figures of speech. Generally, its more to the point than the some of the rambling, verbose, idealistic nonsense that sometimes is posted by people with no social skills.
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Ham Phisted,
Not really important, but by "standard", I was referring more to a meta-standard that a school could apply to the way it teaches students, not the specific objectives required for each license. By "known" I don't mean public knowledge, but more in relation to the good reputation a school may have built up whilst engaged submitting grads for inteview to those who employ.
I suppose, I'm just trying to understand what the value add is with OAT, etc. There is the general perception that you are more employable if you are ex-OAT, FTE, etc. If I were an employer I'd probably make a bee-line for the known quantity/quality first. Are OAT (etc), and its graduates considered known quanties/qualities do you think? (ignoring the Gollums for the time being)
Not really important, but by "standard", I was referring more to a meta-standard that a school could apply to the way it teaches students, not the specific objectives required for each license. By "known" I don't mean public knowledge, but more in relation to the good reputation a school may have built up whilst engaged submitting grads for inteview to those who employ.
I suppose, I'm just trying to understand what the value add is with OAT, etc. There is the general perception that you are more employable if you are ex-OAT, FTE, etc. If I were an employer I'd probably make a bee-line for the known quantity/quality first. Are OAT (etc), and its graduates considered known quanties/qualities do you think? (ignoring the Gollums for the time being)
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I think dartagnan hit the nail on the head with his rant;
"I don't like pilots who have too much cash. they are usually arrogant and if one day I have to recruit pilots, I will do my best to put all Oxford CV in the bin."
As an indervidual you have no idea what preconscieved ideas are in the recruiters heads. It doesnt matter if you are an all round good guy great grades, made your own personal decision to take your own personal path to get your license involving many sacrifices and lots of hard work and thoroughly deserve a job, knowing if only you could meet the recruiter he would recognise that. But if the guy who you need to pursuade to even invite you for an interview has an attitude like that your knackered, and swap Oxford for any other school, swap integrated for modular or military helicopter/fast jet for self improver if he is closed minded and your experience doesnt match his own personal experience for all you know your knackered. Thank goodness most recruiters cant afford to be so prejudiced and are open minded and objective.
I hope dartagnan doesnt make it to recruiter, but if he does I hope he will have mellowed by then.
Thats why I think these threads about where to go and which is the most successful path are posted time and time again. We are all passionate about getting a job and want reassurance the decision we have made is correct, from an industry whose recruitment process is far from transparent.
"I don't like pilots who have too much cash. they are usually arrogant and if one day I have to recruit pilots, I will do my best to put all Oxford CV in the bin."
As an indervidual you have no idea what preconscieved ideas are in the recruiters heads. It doesnt matter if you are an all round good guy great grades, made your own personal decision to take your own personal path to get your license involving many sacrifices and lots of hard work and thoroughly deserve a job, knowing if only you could meet the recruiter he would recognise that. But if the guy who you need to pursuade to even invite you for an interview has an attitude like that your knackered, and swap Oxford for any other school, swap integrated for modular or military helicopter/fast jet for self improver if he is closed minded and your experience doesnt match his own personal experience for all you know your knackered. Thank goodness most recruiters cant afford to be so prejudiced and are open minded and objective.
I hope dartagnan doesnt make it to recruiter, but if he does I hope he will have mellowed by then.
Thats why I think these threads about where to go and which is the most successful path are posted time and time again. We are all passionate about getting a job and want reassurance the decision we have made is correct, from an industry whose recruitment process is far from transparent.
Never said I came fresh from anywhere! Spent under a year and less than 500 hrs on a turboprop so started at BA with around 800-900 hrs total time as a "direct entry pilot!" Still had absolutely no idea, of course, about what was going on though 
Thanks. But, as always, happier being lucky rather than good any day!
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
With regard to OAT modular, at the moment from my group of peers over 80% of us are in employment or in a hold pool within 12 months of completing MCC. Some with a little help from OAT, some off our own bats.
I have no idea what the employment rates are like in comparable schools like CCAT, PAT, AFT etc, they could be just as good.
sr
I have no idea what the employment rates are like in comparable schools like CCAT, PAT, AFT etc, they could be just as good.
sr