Oxford Aviation Training (OAT) - Who has got a job?
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Well I can say I'm still going modular,yes of late Oxford/cabair have been successful in placing students.I'm still confident of using the contacts I have etc and working ghard to achieve what I've always wanted.I still take solice from speaking to a BA 146 pilot who was modular and took 10 years to reach his current position!!
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Regards
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I'm sorry but, as in investment, past performance is no guide to future returns! There was a time, and it's not that long ago, when an enterprising wannabe could make his way to an airline job purely on the basis of hard work and accumulated experience. That time has gone.
It now appears that, for not necessarily good reasons, some airlines (and I think it will soon be more than 'some') wish to farm out selection and training to commercial FTOs so that they, and not the airline, carry the majority of the risk involved. Both the schools and the airlines have a vested interest in getting the highest possible success rate once the student enters line training and therefore will insist on the student being in a continuous training environment from aptitude testing to final graduation. This, after all, is the system that militaries and national airlines (once includng BA) have used very successfully for many years.
The modular route is not closed, and I doubt it will be for many years - as long as there are small airlines that can't afford to contract from the major schools, in fact, but the trend is in favour of the integrated schools. I suspect that, eventually, there will be pressure (from the JAA, probably) to make the integrated route the only one acceptable. I don't particularly like it, but I think it will probably go that way, in a similar fashion to other professional training.
Scroggs
It now appears that, for not necessarily good reasons, some airlines (and I think it will soon be more than 'some') wish to farm out selection and training to commercial FTOs so that they, and not the airline, carry the majority of the risk involved. Both the schools and the airlines have a vested interest in getting the highest possible success rate once the student enters line training and therefore will insist on the student being in a continuous training environment from aptitude testing to final graduation. This, after all, is the system that militaries and national airlines (once includng BA) have used very successfully for many years.
The modular route is not closed, and I doubt it will be for many years - as long as there are small airlines that can't afford to contract from the major schools, in fact, but the trend is in favour of the integrated schools. I suspect that, eventually, there will be pressure (from the JAA, probably) to make the integrated route the only one acceptable. I don't particularly like it, but I think it will probably go that way, in a similar fashion to other professional training.
Scroggs
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Scroggs,
If you would not mind me picking your brain...
What is your opinion of structured modular courses as a halfway house between the integrated and modular? Do they provide sufficient continuity to reassure airline recruiters, do you think?
BTW, I am not trying to promote any course by mentioning structured modular courses, and, bizarrely I am not put off by your post...in fact on Monday I will be contacting a well known supplier of ground schooling who regularly advertises here and placing an order with them. My current employment and financial status mean that I will be able to study, full time, for the whole duration until my exams are passed. It is a little disheartening to know that even though I may well finish my ground school phase in less time than an integrated student, prospective recruiters will still think of me as a "lesser" candidate. Hey ho whinge over.
As an aside, I wonder what the mathematics of pilot supply and demand are, and whether or not integrated schools can supply sufficient candidates to fulfil airline recruitment needs. With airlines increasingly looking to devolve the cost of training as well as the selection process, will there be an adequate supply of suitable candidates with the necessary £100k required to complete an integrated course?
Does anyone know where accurate figures (or any figures) can be found regarding the number of currently qualified pilots, what proportion of them have flying jobs at present, and how old they are (JAA believe that a great deal of pilots are approaching retirement age, if you believe everything you read on the net)
Any help, tips etc greatly appreciated, keep up the good work.
If you would not mind me picking your brain...
What is your opinion of structured modular courses as a halfway house between the integrated and modular? Do they provide sufficient continuity to reassure airline recruiters, do you think?
BTW, I am not trying to promote any course by mentioning structured modular courses, and, bizarrely I am not put off by your post...in fact on Monday I will be contacting a well known supplier of ground schooling who regularly advertises here and placing an order with them. My current employment and financial status mean that I will be able to study, full time, for the whole duration until my exams are passed. It is a little disheartening to know that even though I may well finish my ground school phase in less time than an integrated student, prospective recruiters will still think of me as a "lesser" candidate. Hey ho whinge over.
As an aside, I wonder what the mathematics of pilot supply and demand are, and whether or not integrated schools can supply sufficient candidates to fulfil airline recruitment needs. With airlines increasingly looking to devolve the cost of training as well as the selection process, will there be an adequate supply of suitable candidates with the necessary £100k required to complete an integrated course?
Does anyone know where accurate figures (or any figures) can be found regarding the number of currently qualified pilots, what proportion of them have flying jobs at present, and how old they are (JAA believe that a great deal of pilots are approaching retirement age, if you believe everything you read on the net)
Any help, tips etc greatly appreciated, keep up the good work.
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I think that structured modular courses are an excellent product, and I also believe that some airlines agree with me. Certainly I've seen evidence of quite a few ex-modular students being employed in the last few months. However, my impression is that the poportion of successful (into airlines) modular graduates is gradually reducing, and I believe this trend will continue. I wish it were not so.
As for whether the integrated providers can output sufficient numbers for the industry, I'm pretty sure they can. They've been running at much less than capacity over the last few years, and they have lots of room for expansion. There's also room for current modular suppliers to become integrated. If the market (the airlines) demands integrated graduates, the schools will provide them - and it won't be cheap.
Scroggs
As for whether the integrated providers can output sufficient numbers for the industry, I'm pretty sure they can. They've been running at much less than capacity over the last few years, and they have lots of room for expansion. There's also room for current modular suppliers to become integrated. If the market (the airlines) demands integrated graduates, the schools will provide them - and it won't be cheap.
Scroggs
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I can certainly see the logic of your concerns Scroggs, but I am not entirely convinced that it means the end for modular courses.
Although it might do at some time in the future.
As I said in my previous post, at EPTA we have been invited to put forward a number of our students in recent weeks and a good many have been successful. All EPTA students are modular and some of those put forward did not even do their groundschool with us. This does not suggest that the airlines are insisting on taking only integrated students.
I think that the potential problem lies in the way the favoured schools choose to use their advantage. There will clearly be an incentive for OATS for example to put forward mainly (or only) their APP students. This is because OATS make more money from their APP students and obviously want to encourage more students to sign up for the APP.
For students taking the modular route, at other schools it is still possible to be put forward by their schools. But it is important that they understand how this system works. The schools select their best candidates primarily on the basis of the attitude and ability displayed during flying training. Their attitude and performance during groundschool is largely irrelevant.
This means that doing the groundschool at one of the non-favoured schools then moving on to fly at a favoured school will not prevent a student from being put forward to an airline (some of the EPTA nominees did exactly that). But doing only the groundschool at the favoured school then flying at a non-favoured one will certainly eliminate a student from even being considered. Some excellent students who did their groundschool at EPTA and then moved on to other schools or other countries to do their flying at lower prices have put themslves in this position. This is quite simply because we will have no idea how they performed during their flying training.
For the future it all depends on how the jobs market developes. If demand outpaces supply (unlikely I know) then even OATS will be obliged to put forward their modular students after their APP pool has been exhausted. If on the other hand the market remains oversupplied, then the schools will be far more restrictive in their selection process.
Although it might do at some time in the future.
As I said in my previous post, at EPTA we have been invited to put forward a number of our students in recent weeks and a good many have been successful. All EPTA students are modular and some of those put forward did not even do their groundschool with us. This does not suggest that the airlines are insisting on taking only integrated students.
I think that the potential problem lies in the way the favoured schools choose to use their advantage. There will clearly be an incentive for OATS for example to put forward mainly (or only) their APP students. This is because OATS make more money from their APP students and obviously want to encourage more students to sign up for the APP.
For students taking the modular route, at other schools it is still possible to be put forward by their schools. But it is important that they understand how this system works. The schools select their best candidates primarily on the basis of the attitude and ability displayed during flying training. Their attitude and performance during groundschool is largely irrelevant.
This means that doing the groundschool at one of the non-favoured schools then moving on to fly at a favoured school will not prevent a student from being put forward to an airline (some of the EPTA nominees did exactly that). But doing only the groundschool at the favoured school then flying at a non-favoured one will certainly eliminate a student from even being considered. Some excellent students who did their groundschool at EPTA and then moved on to other schools or other countries to do their flying at lower prices have put themslves in this position. This is quite simply because we will have no idea how they performed during their flying training.
For the future it all depends on how the jobs market developes. If demand outpaces supply (unlikely I know) then even OATS will be obliged to put forward their modular students after their APP pool has been exhausted. If on the other hand the market remains oversupplied, then the schools will be far more restrictive in their selection process.
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Keith, I'm by no means saying that we are about to see the end of modular courses, but I do believe that the trend is against them and that their continued existence in the long term must be at least subject to some doubt. It rather depends on how the airlines - or rather, their recruiting people - decide they want to do things. Those who have a history of accepting, and being happy with, modular graduates will no doubt wish to continue doing so. However, those airlines that are expanding rapidly (and thus are forming an ever-larger share of pilot employment) yet wish to stick to their 'core' business will undoubtedly contract out their ab-initio recruiting to organisations like CTC or Oxford. If that requires an expansion of integrated capacity at the expense of modular capacity, the schools will do it. And new - currently modular - schools will enter the market.
Eventually, I can foresee integrated becoming more and more the norm, and then the pressure will be on, and by, the regulators to make it the only method of obtaining a licence (with the MCL as the cheap option for airlines that run their own training). We're a very long way from that, but I think the trend is noticeable and accelerating.
Scroggs
Eventually, I can foresee integrated becoming more and more the norm, and then the pressure will be on, and by, the regulators to make it the only method of obtaining a licence (with the MCL as the cheap option for airlines that run their own training). We're a very long way from that, but I think the trend is noticeable and accelerating.
Scroggs
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It s very hard to accept this.
I have worked very very hard to convince a paradroping center chief pilot to accept me for flying their plane (I am only 19 and no CPL), through instructors recomendation, friends of mine which are also flying C206 or PC-6 to paradrop, and of course the money to get the experience to do that (in france to drop you need 200 PIC and a PPL to drop). I am now hoping to soon find a place on a PC-6 which would get me turboprop hours. I did all this, thinking that it would increase my chances of getting a job, and that those hours would help me to move my CV up the pile. For me it was logic that the more hours you have, the best it is. It seems that I was wrong and really don t see what I can do now. Structured modular sounds good but if you cannot get recomendation letters or help from oxford even though you did a CPL-IR-MCC-JOC then i am sure it doesn t help that much. If anyone did modular at oxford please enlighten us on this.
I hope many wanabees are gonna read this thread. Even though I really enjoyed a lot, all the flying i did so far and think I probably enjoy my route much more than an integrated one, and that i ll never regret the hard work i ve done for all this, it seems that it wont help me a lot for the most important after all.....flying for a nice airline that allows you to live properly.
Any advices are welcome.
Winch
I have worked very very hard to convince a paradroping center chief pilot to accept me for flying their plane (I am only 19 and no CPL), through instructors recomendation, friends of mine which are also flying C206 or PC-6 to paradrop, and of course the money to get the experience to do that (in france to drop you need 200 PIC and a PPL to drop). I am now hoping to soon find a place on a PC-6 which would get me turboprop hours. I did all this, thinking that it would increase my chances of getting a job, and that those hours would help me to move my CV up the pile. For me it was logic that the more hours you have, the best it is. It seems that I was wrong and really don t see what I can do now. Structured modular sounds good but if you cannot get recomendation letters or help from oxford even though you did a CPL-IR-MCC-JOC then i am sure it doesn t help that much. If anyone did modular at oxford please enlighten us on this.
I hope many wanabees are gonna read this thread. Even though I really enjoyed a lot, all the flying i did so far and think I probably enjoy my route much more than an integrated one, and that i ll never regret the hard work i ve done for all this, it seems that it wont help me a lot for the most important after all.....flying for a nice airline that allows you to live properly.
Any advices are welcome.
Winch
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Winch, we're not there yet! We're talking about the future of modular courses and the pressures that airlines are bringing to bear on the current system. As I said in an earlier post, there are still plenty of modular graduates getting jobs - but the proportion of those graduating to those getting airline employment is, as far as I can see, reducing - and it's the integrated system that's benefitting.
There is still - and I hope there will be for a long time - room for those that do the training in their spare time and build their hours doing the sort of thing you're doing. But I think there will be fewer of you in the future.
Scroggs
There is still - and I hope there will be for a long time - room for those that do the training in their spare time and build their hours doing the sort of thing you're doing. But I think there will be fewer of you in the future.
Scroggs
From the moment I first discovered the integrated and modular ways of training I have always favoured the integrated. The impression I get of it is that it is more focused to taking a person to be ready to become a first officer at an airline. Simply the name of the OAT training the Airline Preparation Programme implies you are going to become an airline pilot, not just gaining a license that allows you to fly for money. Airlines will probably always go to the big integrated schools for low hour cadets.
The way I look at it is before you start training you have two paths to take. If you want to take your time, gain your licenses as you want. Take up some flying instruction on the weekends and make your way slowly to the airlines then modular is for you. Integrated courses are looking at producing a pilot ready for airline flying, bypassing the time you spend instructing or doing other types of flying. So for an extra £20,000 - £30,000 you probably save your self a few years. I really think it’s down to personal choice and of course, circumstances. If there is no way you can go integrated and you want it bad enough you will go modular. There is no which way about it, if you want something enough you will go down a route you didn’t really want to. Just my two cents on a very difficult and complicated argument. Modular Vs Integrated. At the moment it seems Integrated has the upper hand and is not far from a TKO.
The way I look at it is before you start training you have two paths to take. If you want to take your time, gain your licenses as you want. Take up some flying instruction on the weekends and make your way slowly to the airlines then modular is for you. Integrated courses are looking at producing a pilot ready for airline flying, bypassing the time you spend instructing or doing other types of flying. So for an extra £20,000 - £30,000 you probably save your self a few years. I really think it’s down to personal choice and of course, circumstances. If there is no way you can go integrated and you want it bad enough you will go modular. There is no which way about it, if you want something enough you will go down a route you didn’t really want to. Just my two cents on a very difficult and complicated argument. Modular Vs Integrated. At the moment it seems Integrated has the upper hand and is not far from a TKO.
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Its easy to use the wrong words here. What we seem to be talking about is not modular vs integrated but 'selected continuous training' vs 'self organised'. As has already been pointed out arguably the most succesful sponsored scheme, the CTC Wings scheme, is actually modular and many students on integrated courses at other FTOs who didn't buy the 'premium product' seem to been quietly forgotten about when the recommendation for jobs comes around (unless they get a job on their own, of course, in which case they very quickly turn up in the FTO's stats).
BA very explicitly said that they were looking for students from either integrated or structured modular courses with pre-selection and where they could trace a student's training records from inception. As far as I can tell they took 24 pilots, although some of those had already been selected by BA before 9/11.
That doesn't either mean they will be interested in every integrated student or every structured modular student who qualifies in the future, and anyway BA are not a major recruiter. These schemes will stand or fall in the long term by how they are viewed by the airlines but their measure of success in the short term is how many customers they can get to pay over the odds. It is crucial for schools selling 'premium products' to keep restating over and over that 'many' of their students were put forward and 'quite a few' were selected. When the recent BA scheme was announced, for instance, several FTOs were saying things like 'we are confident most of the selected students will come from us'. Have you noticed a certain silence since then? You might expect a really successful school to report something like 'half the cadets were ours' or 'three quarters of the cadets were ours'. You even find FTOs claiming a student as 'theirs' when they only did an MCC course with them. You're looking at marketing smoke and mirrors.
The next issue is the dreadfully cyclical nature of the airline business. It is hardly surprising that, when BA want 24 pilots, they restrict access by asking a few big schools to suggest candidates otherwise they would be inundated by wannabees. It might be a marketing man's dream but these small groups of pilots are hardly the whole industry. Students of self organised modular courses and the less brash integrated schools have also been steadily finding jobs. We even had a relatively recent and re-assuringly middle-aged student joining BA as a direct entrant. He started off his career a couple of years ago with the Astraeus scheme, I bet he never thought he would end up in BA. Old hands will remember that, when the airlines really need pilots, they will take anyone with a license who can find the aircraft without a stick. I've got loads of ex-students flying for BA, they didn't do integrated courses and, at the time, BA were allegedly only recruiting from their own sponsored cadets. Things change real fast around here. One of my friends started flying sheds on the night mail, then moved to City Flyer on a lower salary on ATRs and now, after City Flyer were taken over, he flies 777s with BA. How do you plan that?
BA very explicitly said that they were looking for students from either integrated or structured modular courses with pre-selection and where they could trace a student's training records from inception. As far as I can tell they took 24 pilots, although some of those had already been selected by BA before 9/11.
That doesn't either mean they will be interested in every integrated student or every structured modular student who qualifies in the future, and anyway BA are not a major recruiter. These schemes will stand or fall in the long term by how they are viewed by the airlines but their measure of success in the short term is how many customers they can get to pay over the odds. It is crucial for schools selling 'premium products' to keep restating over and over that 'many' of their students were put forward and 'quite a few' were selected. When the recent BA scheme was announced, for instance, several FTOs were saying things like 'we are confident most of the selected students will come from us'. Have you noticed a certain silence since then? You might expect a really successful school to report something like 'half the cadets were ours' or 'three quarters of the cadets were ours'. You even find FTOs claiming a student as 'theirs' when they only did an MCC course with them. You're looking at marketing smoke and mirrors.
The next issue is the dreadfully cyclical nature of the airline business. It is hardly surprising that, when BA want 24 pilots, they restrict access by asking a few big schools to suggest candidates otherwise they would be inundated by wannabees. It might be a marketing man's dream but these small groups of pilots are hardly the whole industry. Students of self organised modular courses and the less brash integrated schools have also been steadily finding jobs. We even had a relatively recent and re-assuringly middle-aged student joining BA as a direct entrant. He started off his career a couple of years ago with the Astraeus scheme, I bet he never thought he would end up in BA. Old hands will remember that, when the airlines really need pilots, they will take anyone with a license who can find the aircraft without a stick. I've got loads of ex-students flying for BA, they didn't do integrated courses and, at the time, BA were allegedly only recruiting from their own sponsored cadets. Things change real fast around here. One of my friends started flying sheds on the night mail, then moved to City Flyer on a lower salary on ATRs and now, after City Flyer were taken over, he flies 777s with BA. How do you plan that?
Last edited by Alex Whittingham; 20th Feb 2005 at 20:03.
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Alex, you're quite right - CTC's scheme is, strictly speaking, a structured modular course. However, the central point remains, which is that airline are beginning to go down the line of delegating their ab-initio recruiting and training to the large schools, and that this trend seems likely to accelerate.
That is, of course, a far cry from saying that all ab-initio recruiting will be done this way at some point in the future, but I do fear that the trend is moving against the interests of the 'self-organised' student. Exceptions can be found to any rule, of course, and for every APP or CTC student who gets a job, right now we can point to several non-integrated 'self-organised' wannabes who have succeeded. Long may it continue, but I'm beginning to think that it might not...
Before anyone gets too worried, we are talking about the medium and long term future, not next week or even next year!
Scroggs
That is, of course, a far cry from saying that all ab-initio recruiting will be done this way at some point in the future, but I do fear that the trend is moving against the interests of the 'self-organised' student. Exceptions can be found to any rule, of course, and for every APP or CTC student who gets a job, right now we can point to several non-integrated 'self-organised' wannabes who have succeeded. Long may it continue, but I'm beginning to think that it might not...
Before anyone gets too worried, we are talking about the medium and long term future, not next week or even next year!
Scroggs
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Certainly these courses are here to stay. What I'm saying, in a tangled sort of way, is that when there is no recruiting it won't matter squat which sort of course you did, when the airlines are busting for pilots it won't matter either, the only time it's going to make a difference is when there is very limited recruiting. Even then many airlines eschew this sort of plan in favour of the usual 'crisis recruiting'.
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...and, as if by magic, the latest edition of Flight contains a new advert for FOs at BA. The requirements now are to have more than 400hrs on a multi-crew transport aircraft over 10 tonnes, which pretty much equals a year of commercial flying.
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All interesting stuff.... anyone got any idea how Jerez have got on placing graduates with airlines over the past few months?
Are they having as much success as OAT or is there a gap opening up between the two?
Are they having as much success as OAT or is there a gap opening up between the two?
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As far as OAT's job successes are concerned, I think you will find (should you wish to put the career development officer on the spot) that the vast majority of those 'successes' are individual successes gained as a result of the efforts of each graduate rather than as a result of any approaches made to the school itself.
There is no breakdown of APP/non APP, or integrated/modular success, merely that each one is an OAT graduate who has chosen to inform the school of their good fortune. I know that some of those people graduated long before the APP was even a twinkle in daddy's eye.
Beware of the spin from marketing.
There is no breakdown of APP/non APP, or integrated/modular success, merely that each one is an OAT graduate who has chosen to inform the school of their good fortune. I know that some of those people graduated long before the APP was even a twinkle in daddy's eye.
Beware of the spin from marketing.
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I trained in the bad ol' days after 9/11, no one was getting jobs at all,
the first companies to start recruiting after the drought did'nt care where you trained!
I know, Alex helped me, tonight I am sat abroad (after too many beers) having flown a heavy into a foreign airfield earlier tonight, first job after light aircraft, on my course 3 modular, 3 integrated, 2 ex-balloon corps ( I know this cos they wear pink!)
You pay your money you take your chances, it seems to be a level playing field, however, if I was a betting man and really wanted to pay the money for integrated I would bet with Jerez for an integrated course, they seem very good at placing their students.
the first companies to start recruiting after the drought did'nt care where you trained!
I know, Alex helped me, tonight I am sat abroad (after too many beers) having flown a heavy into a foreign airfield earlier tonight, first job after light aircraft, on my course 3 modular, 3 integrated, 2 ex-balloon corps ( I know this cos they wear pink!)
You pay your money you take your chances, it seems to be a level playing field, however, if I was a betting man and really wanted to pay the money for integrated I would bet with Jerez for an integrated course, they seem very good at placing their students.
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Bump - just thought this was an excellent thread that I at least found most useful.
Not for once debating the mod v int argument but more the 'selected continuous training' vs 'self organised' and how airlines might perceive this. Some good points raised
Not for once debating the mod v int argument but more the 'selected continuous training' vs 'self organised' and how airlines might perceive this. Some good points raised
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Oxford Aviation Training (OAT) - Who has got a job?
Hello there!
I'm starting at Oxford on their integrated APP scheme in March. I was just hoping that any graduates from their APP/Integrated scheme could possibly comment on their current employment status?
If you have been employed, how long after graduation did this take?
Finally, how many people from their integrated course have been unable to secure employment with an airline?
I know some of these questions may seem a little personal, but i would be ever so grateful if anyone out there could shed some light on this subject
Regards
Bozzato
I'm starting at Oxford on their integrated APP scheme in March. I was just hoping that any graduates from their APP/Integrated scheme could possibly comment on their current employment status?
If you have been employed, how long after graduation did this take?
Finally, how many people from their integrated course have been unable to secure employment with an airline?
I know some of these questions may seem a little personal, but i would be ever so grateful if anyone out there could shed some light on this subject
Regards
Bozzato