Working in Europe?
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you go work for the nurse-strapped NHS in the UK.
Apart from that, it was a great plan - I am impressed by your ingenuity!
Scroggs
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Unfortunately, the NHS's lack of cash (though their budget is huge, and increasing way faster than inflation) is more pressing than their lack of nurses. Hence thousands of recently-graduated nurses in UK are being denied jobs. The chances of newly-qualified foreign nurses getting a job here have, for the moment, disappeared.
Apart from that, it was a great plan - I am impressed by your ingenuity!
Scroggs
Apart from that, it was a great plan - I am impressed by your ingenuity!
Scroggs
On another note, since we're in this "immigration" forum, can anyone tell me which type of entry-level flying job (i.e. instruction, air taxi, night freight, etc.) in Ireland & the UK currently need pilots the most?
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EU Work Question
I know this might sound like a dumb quesion, but i'm a bit naive when it comes to things like this.
Does a British Citizen have the right to work and live in any EU country. E.g. could I apply to any airline based in any EU country. Or am I restricted to airlines in the UK only?
Does a British Citizen have the right to work and live in any EU country. E.g. could I apply to any airline based in any EU country. Or am I restricted to airlines in the UK only?
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Any european citizen has the right to live and work in UK if i'm not wrong, so i believe that any UK citizen also has the right to work and live in EU 
As long as you have a JAA or JAR license you can work anywhere in EU including UK, that's for sure 
Later;
/niko
As long as you have a JAA or JAR license you can work anywhere in EU including UK, that's for sure Later;
/niko
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You have the right to work but just because you have a JAR License doesn't mean you will be allowed to fly their Reg aircraft public transport.
The JAR license is nice in theory but there are still some countrys who put some barriers up. eg France. Also as well there are some slight difference in a UK JAR medical which other country's don't except eg the Germans get a bit stroppy with the lack of a full eye examination periodically.
I know it won't really matter to wannabies but in the UK the ATPL skills test is just any old LPC in the RHS after you have the required hours and the TRE doesn't need to know. Sweden for example you have to do a seperate check in the LHS as a formal ATPL qualifying check.
So it is not as easy as you might think. And thats before you even start having to meet the language requirements
The JAR license is nice in theory but there are still some countrys who put some barriers up. eg France. Also as well there are some slight difference in a UK JAR medical which other country's don't except eg the Germans get a bit stroppy with the lack of a full eye examination periodically.
I know it won't really matter to wannabies but in the UK the ATPL skills test is just any old LPC in the RHS after you have the required hours and the TRE doesn't need to know. Sweden for example you have to do a seperate check in the LHS as a formal ATPL qualifying check.
So it is not as easy as you might think. And thats before you even start having to meet the language requirements
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An EU citizen (that is, one who holds an EU passport) may work in any country of the EU, with temporary exceptions for the new-entrant countries. Your JAA licence is valid in all countries covered by the JAA - which is the EU plus a few others.
Non-EU citizens (such as Australians) have no right to work in the EU, except that they may have ancestral rights to live and work in their country of ancestral origin. That is, if your parents were born in the UK, you may have the right to live and work in the UK, but that does not translate into a right to live and work anywhere else in the EU - until you apply for, and receive, EU nationality. To establish what rights you have, and what further actions you must take, you must contact the embassy of your target EU country in your own nation.
Scroggs
Non-EU citizens (such as Australians) have no right to work in the EU, except that they may have ancestral rights to live and work in their country of ancestral origin. That is, if your parents were born in the UK, you may have the right to live and work in the UK, but that does not translate into a right to live and work anywhere else in the EU - until you apply for, and receive, EU nationality. To establish what rights you have, and what further actions you must take, you must contact the embassy of your target EU country in your own nation.
Scroggs
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An ex of mine gained indefinite leave to remain in the UK based on her grandfather having been born in the UK. Essentially this was a stamp in her kiwi passport and enabled her to come and go as she pleased to the UK and work unrestricted BUT again in the UK only. After 5 years she was entitled to to apply for naturalisation as a British citizen and then in turn send off her certificate to apply for a British passport at the passport office. It was only after gaining this passport that she could freely live and work throughout the EU.
If you fail to have a parent or grandparent (think only a grandad!) who was born here then the only other option is a work permit and to seek sponsorship. Then it is a similar process to the above except after 4 years you can shift off the work permit and apply for leave to remain in your own right which means you would no longer be tied to your sponsored employer. Believe me working 4 years for the same outfit can be a long long time when you want to be somewhere else earning more money but have invested so much and are within a whisker of getting the passport. After 5 years its naturalisation and the passport and then the EU will be open to you.
Much easier to marry an EU citizen if you ask me and avoid the hassle!
If you fail to have a parent or grandparent (think only a grandad!) who was born here then the only other option is a work permit and to seek sponsorship. Then it is a similar process to the above except after 4 years you can shift off the work permit and apply for leave to remain in your own right which means you would no longer be tied to your sponsored employer. Believe me working 4 years for the same outfit can be a long long time when you want to be somewhere else earning more money but have invested so much and are within a whisker of getting the passport. After 5 years its naturalisation and the passport and then the EU will be open to you.
Much easier to marry an EU citizen if you ask me and avoid the hassle!
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working for foreign airlines
My son is in the middle of applying for pilot school. We've read the many threads about which place is best but one thing I notice is that everyone seems to want to work for a UK based airline which is perfectly understandable but what's wrong with going to other countries - like the US. Or, to be honest, my son would be happy flying an island-hopping plane in the caribbean ot the maldives. Is that not considered "serious" piloting? Do you need residency/work permits to work for US or other nationality airlines?
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There is nothing stopping your son, nor any wannabe pilot, from flying anywhere in the world, however, in most countries First Officer spots are generally given first to nationals of the country, and then to foreigners. While not impossible to gain the first job in a foreign country the chances are less than in you home country.
At least thats what i've found when looking at airlines.
At least thats what i've found when looking at airlines.
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Why Europe is Better?
Hey all,
I am a prospective American who has another year and a half of flight training before I recieve all my nesscessary raitings that allow me to become a Airline Pilot, but I am wondering where to start off.
What makes Europe a better place to fly than America?
Do most Airlines have night stops?
Do most hire only from academies and not colleges?
And do some airlines actually have uniforms? Like hats, ties, and belts that make us look like Pilots?
Thanks for all your help
-JD
I am a prospective American who has another year and a half of flight training before I recieve all my nesscessary raitings that allow me to become a Airline Pilot, but I am wondering where to start off.
What makes Europe a better place to fly than America?
Do most Airlines have night stops?
Do most hire only from academies and not colleges?
And do some airlines actually have uniforms? Like hats, ties, and belts that make us look like Pilots?
Thanks for all your help
-JD
Join Date: Dec 1997
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There are many contract-based, relatively short-term jobs available to pilots of almost any nationality in many places around the world. However, these jobs normally require a fair amount of experience, and normally exist in places where there is little or no indigenous pool of pilots to draw from.
'First-world' countries, such as the USA, the EU, Australia and so on, protect their jobs markets jealously, and make it very difficult for non-nationals to enter their economies - whether they are pilots, acountants, teachers, bin men or whatever.
Employers within the EU (and anywhere else, for that matter) are entitled to insist that people who wish to work for them are fluent in the language of whatever country they are based in. That is only a barrier to those who refuse to learn their language...
Scroggs
'First-world' countries, such as the USA, the EU, Australia and so on, protect their jobs markets jealously, and make it very difficult for non-nationals to enter their economies - whether they are pilots, acountants, teachers, bin men or whatever.
Employers within the EU (and anywhere else, for that matter) are entitled to insist that people who wish to work for them are fluent in the language of whatever country they are based in. That is only a barrier to those who refuse to learn their language...
Scroggs
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Considering Heading to Europe?
Hey guys, and girls
I`m 22 and half way through my CPL training in Australia, and all going to plan i`ll have CPL + MECIR and about 200 hours within next four months. I`ve recently been offered a job as an F.O. flying turboprop twins provided I get a Command Endorsement (self sponsored, in the vicinity of $32k +) once I`ve got my MECIR. However I`ve heard that this kind of money could get me through JAA conversion and a JET TR. My Dad being english gives me eligiblity for a British passport, and some guys over here think i`m nuts not to take the opportunity and go over there, with what seems to be a new trend of Airlines hiring low hour pilots as F.O.`s provided you get your own endorsement.
I`m very keen to start out over here with mentioned job however It`s a massive investment, and I want to make sure I`m making the right decision as this decision will affect me finacially for years to come...
I`m just really confused about it all
Anywho any thoughts are greatly appreciated
cheers, Justin
I`m 22 and half way through my CPL training in Australia, and all going to plan i`ll have CPL + MECIR and about 200 hours within next four months. I`ve recently been offered a job as an F.O. flying turboprop twins provided I get a Command Endorsement (self sponsored, in the vicinity of $32k +) once I`ve got my MECIR. However I`ve heard that this kind of money could get me through JAA conversion and a JET TR. My Dad being english gives me eligiblity for a British passport, and some guys over here think i`m nuts not to take the opportunity and go over there, with what seems to be a new trend of Airlines hiring low hour pilots as F.O.`s provided you get your own endorsement.
I`m very keen to start out over here with mentioned job however It`s a massive investment, and I want to make sure I`m making the right decision as this decision will affect me finacially for years to come...
I`m just really confused about it all
Anywho any thoughts are greatly appreciated
cheers, Justin
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I am currently in GB came from Canada got everything I need, but the grass is always greener elsewhere...My suggestion: Offers don't come often If they come at all so grab the opportunity and stick to it for couple of years, then you will be more employable anywhere for that matter, therefore job hunt will be a bit easier for you.
Here in England is not so great regarding the jobs with low hours. Everyone hurdles into jobs like Ryanair etc...but they forget the fact that out of 20 first officers they are hiring there is about 1000 applications (little bit less) for that position with 200 something TT pilots. So really, what are the odds of getting in? After spending $35000 for type rating, even if you are succesful in assesment, you still have to satisfactory complete the training,otherwise: bye,bye, that's just the way it is...
I'd pick Asia over UK anytime If i could(China, Thailand,Indonesia...)
Here in England is not so great regarding the jobs with low hours. Everyone hurdles into jobs like Ryanair etc...but they forget the fact that out of 20 first officers they are hiring there is about 1000 applications (little bit less) for that position with 200 something TT pilots. So really, what are the odds of getting in? After spending $35000 for type rating, even if you are succesful in assesment, you still have to satisfactory complete the training,otherwise: bye,bye, that's just the way it is...
I'd pick Asia over UK anytime If i could(China, Thailand,Indonesia...)
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Mate you are kidding yourself if you think $32000 Aus dollars will go very far up here, it won't even get you the half - probably not even a THIRD of what you need to be employable up here.
Think about it : remember you've got to do all 14 JAR ATPL subjects (£3000) the single engine CPL (£2000) the IR conversion (Between £5000 and £10000 depending on where you train, how quickly you get your head round UK IFR operations, how many training delays / bad weather delays you get and how many resits you end up doing - bearing in mind that well under half the candidates pass first time
) Cost of conversion 'could' be as high as £15000 - plus living expenses up here for at least 6 months at, say, £1000 a month. Then you say you want a jet rating, which will cost you a further £20 - 25000. Plus another 2 or 3 months living expenses.
Work all that out and I'd say you'd be a fool to rock up here with less than $AUS50,000 in your back pocket just for the CPL/IR conversion, and $100,000 if you are serious about buying the jet rating.
And after all that where have you found yourself - sitting around competing with all the other 200 hour wonders in your same position, trying to stay alive financially and pay the interest on all that money by working in some London pub for a fiver an hour while you send out all those CVs and wait for the phone to call? Those are haaarrrddd times brother, trust me I know because I've been there, and I did it with a lot more hours than you!
The good times are indeed rolling up here in Europe for people with decent multi turbine experience but there are just as many unemployed low timers up here as anywhere else.
If you are fresh out of flying school and you have an offer of a multi turbine job - anywhere in the world, let alone in Oz - then for christs sake grab hold of it with both hands and never ever ever let it go. It's a different story once you've got a full ATPL and 1000 hours on a useful multi turbine type, come up to the UK at that stage and you will indeed find yourself on the gravy train
Think about it : remember you've got to do all 14 JAR ATPL subjects (£3000) the single engine CPL (£2000) the IR conversion (Between £5000 and £10000 depending on where you train, how quickly you get your head round UK IFR operations, how many training delays / bad weather delays you get and how many resits you end up doing - bearing in mind that well under half the candidates pass first time
) Cost of conversion 'could' be as high as £15000 - plus living expenses up here for at least 6 months at, say, £1000 a month. Then you say you want a jet rating, which will cost you a further £20 - 25000. Plus another 2 or 3 months living expenses. Work all that out and I'd say you'd be a fool to rock up here with less than $AUS50,000 in your back pocket just for the CPL/IR conversion, and $100,000 if you are serious about buying the jet rating.
And after all that where have you found yourself - sitting around competing with all the other 200 hour wonders in your same position, trying to stay alive financially and pay the interest on all that money by working in some London pub for a fiver an hour while you send out all those CVs and wait for the phone to call? Those are haaarrrddd times brother, trust me I know because I've been there, and I did it with a lot more hours than you!
The good times are indeed rolling up here in Europe for people with decent multi turbine experience but there are just as many unemployed low timers up here as anywhere else.
If you are fresh out of flying school and you have an offer of a multi turbine job - anywhere in the world, let alone in Oz - then for christs sake grab hold of it with both hands and never ever ever let it go. It's a different story once you've got a full ATPL and 1000 hours on a useful multi turbine type, come up to the UK at that stage and you will indeed find yourself on the gravy train
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Right To Live and Work In The EU
I hold an Australian passport and my wife holds an Italian passport. I know I am entitled to a UK residency permit (EEA family permit) if I join my wife in the UK, that gives me the same supposed rights as an EU citizen; i.e. live and work there. Apparently this is issued free of charge, which must be about the only thing that is!
What I am wondering though is does this equate to most airlines requirement to have "the unresticted right to live and work in the EU"?
My thinking is it does, so long as my wife accompanies me, which would be the case. If it doesn't mean I have this right, why don't companies stipulate that prospective employees must hold an EU passport? Not even BA has this requirement.
In any case I am applying to become an Italian citizen (as we've been married > 3 years), but have been told by the consulate that it would probably take 4 years to process, even though by law it's supposed to be decided within 2 years. This has left me with a massive headache - hence my query.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Cheers.
What I am wondering though is does this equate to most airlines requirement to have "the unresticted right to live and work in the EU"?
My thinking is it does, so long as my wife accompanies me, which would be the case. If it doesn't mean I have this right, why don't companies stipulate that prospective employees must hold an EU passport? Not even BA has this requirement.
In any case I am applying to become an Italian citizen (as we've been married > 3 years), but have been told by the consulate that it would probably take 4 years to process, even though by law it's supposed to be decided within 2 years. This has left me with a massive headache - hence my query.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Cheers.
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EEA Family Permit
This is my understanding (if that's wrong, please correct me):
You can only get a UK EEA Permit if your wife lives in the UK with you. The permit is only good for the UK and does not give you the right to work and live in any other EU country. If your wife then leaves the UK permanently (to live in Italy for example) you will have to hand back your UK EEA Permit and leave the country (unless you can get a different visa, ie. work permit or something like that).
You can of course get a family permit to live in Italy if your wife lives with you in Italy, but again, then you would not be entitled to live and work in the UK (or any other EU country for that matter) as your wife lives in Italy.
In addition, when the EEA Permit is first issued, there is a 1 or 2 year time limit on it, before the end of which you will need to renew/upgrade to a residency permit. As far as the UK is concerned, they will give you a 5 year residency permit once your EEA Permit runs out (again, based on your wife living with you in the UK - if she leaves, you have to leave). Only after that can you apply for indefinite leave to remain in the UK. Even that doesn't give you the right to work and live in any other EU country, just to live in the UK indefinitely (and without your wife) (and that is when you can get things like the dole etc).
However, once you have lived in the UK for 5 years (if you are here based on your wife's non-UK passport), or you have lived in Italy for 3 years (based on your wife's Italian passport), you can apply for a passport. My understanding is that the Italians won't give you a passport unless you live in Italy with your wife, but I may be wrong on that. That is certainly the case with Germany. If in the UK, you can apply for a UK passport. Only the passport will allow you to work unrestricted in the EU.
My situation is similar to yours and I will send you a PM with my experiences. If anyone else has other experiences, I'd be happy to be corrected/updated.
Cheers,
P.
You can only get a UK EEA Permit if your wife lives in the UK with you. The permit is only good for the UK and does not give you the right to work and live in any other EU country. If your wife then leaves the UK permanently (to live in Italy for example) you will have to hand back your UK EEA Permit and leave the country (unless you can get a different visa, ie. work permit or something like that).
You can of course get a family permit to live in Italy if your wife lives with you in Italy, but again, then you would not be entitled to live and work in the UK (or any other EU country for that matter) as your wife lives in Italy.
In addition, when the EEA Permit is first issued, there is a 1 or 2 year time limit on it, before the end of which you will need to renew/upgrade to a residency permit. As far as the UK is concerned, they will give you a 5 year residency permit once your EEA Permit runs out (again, based on your wife living with you in the UK - if she leaves, you have to leave). Only after that can you apply for indefinite leave to remain in the UK. Even that doesn't give you the right to work and live in any other EU country, just to live in the UK indefinitely (and without your wife) (and that is when you can get things like the dole etc).
However, once you have lived in the UK for 5 years (if you are here based on your wife's non-UK passport), or you have lived in Italy for 3 years (based on your wife's Italian passport), you can apply for a passport. My understanding is that the Italians won't give you a passport unless you live in Italy with your wife, but I may be wrong on that. That is certainly the case with Germany. If in the UK, you can apply for a UK passport. Only the passport will allow you to work unrestricted in the EU.
My situation is similar to yours and I will send you a PM with my experiences. If anyone else has other experiences, I'd be happy to be corrected/updated.
Cheers,
P.
Last edited by pumuckl; 5th Apr 2007 at 07:40.
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Forgot to mention - make sure that Italy allows dual citizenship. I know Oz and the UK do, but for example Germany doesn't. If you were applying for a German passport you'd have to give up your other one. Very annoying.
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Thank for the info Pumuckl.
Italy don't require residence it Italy for spouses to be given citizenship. You can apply after 6 months of marriage if living in Italy or after 3 years if living abroad. We've been married for 5 years but have only applied now as my wife's citizenship has just been completed. Unfortunately I've been told it will likely take 4 years to process my application. In the mean time I need to mess around with permits and try to find employers that will accept a EEA family permit until I can apply for a residency permit.
Italy don't require residence it Italy for spouses to be given citizenship. You can apply after 6 months of marriage if living in Italy or after 3 years if living abroad. We've been married for 5 years but have only applied now as my wife's citizenship has just been completed. Unfortunately I've been told it will likely take 4 years to process my application. In the mean time I need to mess around with permits and try to find employers that will accept a EEA family permit until I can apply for a residency permit.