Eagle Jet International
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Originally Posted by cfimei
Hold on a second FlyLevel. [...] Another PPruner who doens't like job competition.
Of course, all this would repeat itself again and again and again. This is exactly why we regulate the interest rate!
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"If you would have read the previous posts you would know the issue is about legislation - it has nothing to do with their economics"
Then why the rumor that they may go bankrupt?? If they were legislated out of business wouldn’t they just cease operations? They would not necessary have to file as bankrupt?
…Still I suppose the end result for wannabes would be the same…
Then why the rumor that they may go bankrupt?? If they were legislated out of business wouldn’t they just cease operations? They would not necessary have to file as bankrupt?
…Still I suppose the end result for wannabes would be the same…
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the EU commission (for the EU open sky) is actually debating on this "pay to work" scam organized with JAA companies, and it could have a serious impact on Eaglejet Operations this year.
(this is what I was meaning by "grounding").
(this is what I was meaning by "grounding").
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A320rider, would you be so kind to share the source of your information?
I could not find anything on the EU web site regarding this issue
and even after contacting these good hard working people at the EU I did not get any wiser (they simply didn't know what I was talking about).
http://europa.eu.int/comm/index_en.htm
I could not find anything on the EU web site regarding this issue
and even after contacting these good hard working people at the EU I did not get any wiser (they simply didn't know what I was talking about).
http://europa.eu.int/comm/index_en.htm
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you can complain or ask here :
European Commission
Directorate-General for Energy and Transport
B-1049 Brussels
fax (32-2) 299 10 15
e-mail:
[email protected]
European Commission
Directorate-General for Energy and Transport
B-1049 Brussels
fax (32-2) 299 10 15
e-mail:
[email protected]
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So LukeSkyToddler you're an airline captain now? Then why did you say in an earlier post:
"...before it got too expensive for us to keep up with the rich kids and we had to go work as supermarket shelf stackers or something..."
What do you mean by too expensive? If you've got a flying job how can it be too expensive for you?
Secondly you ask me to keep the topic sensible but again from your earlier post you stated to Jamvr8:
"I really hope you end up somewhere ....ing cold, old lonely and penniless, in some drab grey state funded retirement home, with a good 20 or 30 years of old age to think about what a short sighted stupid loser you were."
That vitriolic outburst targetted to an individual certainly doesn't add anything constructive to this discussion.
Yes, I am paying for my type rating and yes I will be paying for some FO line experience with Eagle Jet, probably in the far east. Why? Because I've saved hard to do it and until the airlines decide it's not economic or safe for them to continue these programs there's very little that people like you can do to stop it. I suggest if you have a complaint you take it up with the airlines and stop having a go at us who want to be sitting where u are. I love to fly, it has been and always will be my passion in life. I don't particularly care if I'm earning 40k a year or 200k - it'll certainly pay more than stocking shelves in a supermarket and so what if you have to work long hours? We're all working longer hours for less pay no matter what the job is. This is all about the politics of greed and selfishness - I want everything yet I don't want to work that hard for it.
And in response to A320Rider - the EU may limit Eagle Jet's operation in Europe but so what? European aviation is drowing in regulations anyway. Partly one reason why it costs so much to get trained in the first place and do the accident statistics show a JAA license make a pilot any safer than our FAA counterparts? But that opens up another can of worms!
"...before it got too expensive for us to keep up with the rich kids and we had to go work as supermarket shelf stackers or something..."
What do you mean by too expensive? If you've got a flying job how can it be too expensive for you?
Secondly you ask me to keep the topic sensible but again from your earlier post you stated to Jamvr8:
"I really hope you end up somewhere ....ing cold, old lonely and penniless, in some drab grey state funded retirement home, with a good 20 or 30 years of old age to think about what a short sighted stupid loser you were."
That vitriolic outburst targetted to an individual certainly doesn't add anything constructive to this discussion.
Yes, I am paying for my type rating and yes I will be paying for some FO line experience with Eagle Jet, probably in the far east. Why? Because I've saved hard to do it and until the airlines decide it's not economic or safe for them to continue these programs there's very little that people like you can do to stop it. I suggest if you have a complaint you take it up with the airlines and stop having a go at us who want to be sitting where u are. I love to fly, it has been and always will be my passion in life. I don't particularly care if I'm earning 40k a year or 200k - it'll certainly pay more than stocking shelves in a supermarket and so what if you have to work long hours? We're all working longer hours for less pay no matter what the job is. This is all about the politics of greed and selfishness - I want everything yet I don't want to work that hard for it.
And in response to A320Rider - the EU may limit Eagle Jet's operation in Europe but so what? European aviation is drowing in regulations anyway. Partly one reason why it costs so much to get trained in the first place and do the accident statistics show a JAA license make a pilot any safer than our FAA counterparts? But that opens up another can of worms!
Last edited by cfimei; 12th Feb 2006 at 17:48.
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Errr hello cfimei, I am SO glad you decided to keep this thread alive, because you've had 6 days to come up with an answer to my question, let me just remind you again what it was in case you missed it :
If you can't even come up with a single defense then don't be too surprised if I keep on pouring vitriol on you son!
Well you got that part right mate 
As for your kind suggestion that me and my employed colleagues take it up with airline management, do you really think that isn't already happening? There's no chance of anyone buying time at the regional operator I'm with now, because fortunately my chief pilot holds the work-for-free brigade in nearly as much contempt as I do. Any CVs that even hint at that kind of thing go straight in the bin.
There are in fact some very senior pilots in the industry that are actually very concerned about this thing, not just a bunch of anonymous names on PPRuNe. Maybe with that will come the realization for you guys, that for every door that you think you're opening with your Eaglejet hours, there are a bunch of other doors at decent, respectable airlines, that you have closed to yourselves, and you don't even know it
can any of you apologists for Eaglejet, offer a single rationed and reasonable argument, as to why the continued proliferation of these kinds of companies and these schemes, could lead to anything but the utter destruction of commercial piloting as a viable career path?
This is all about the politics of greed and selfishness
As for your kind suggestion that me and my employed colleagues take it up with airline management, do you really think that isn't already happening? There's no chance of anyone buying time at the regional operator I'm with now, because fortunately my chief pilot holds the work-for-free brigade in nearly as much contempt as I do. Any CVs that even hint at that kind of thing go straight in the bin.
There are in fact some very senior pilots in the industry that are actually very concerned about this thing, not just a bunch of anonymous names on PPRuNe. Maybe with that will come the realization for you guys, that for every door that you think you're opening with your Eaglejet hours, there are a bunch of other doors at decent, respectable airlines, that you have closed to yourselves, and you don't even know it
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People make me laugh when they say they do it because they love flying.
If you love flying hands on, stick small because you sure wont be flying the big jets, there is that little thing called the autopilot.
If you love flying hands on, stick small because you sure wont be flying the big jets, there is that little thing called the autopilot.
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I wile ago the question was if you should pay for your own MCC or not. It became the norm and people started to arguing about type ratings, today most companies requires you to pay for it your self in one way or an other. Now the debate is about line training and soon it might also be the norm and new requirement will arise. Probably the only thing that could stop this development is if the job market change and the airlines have to lower their requirements to find pilots.
Last edited by Sandshrew; 12th Feb 2006 at 19:33.
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Luke Sky Toddler,
I heard a lot of guys like you saying that self funding a line training will prevent the pilot from joining a respectable airline bla bla bla....
I decided to go that way over a year ago and I am now flying the A320 in a respectable airline in Asia and believe me even if some senior pilots are against this idea, there is no problem if you do a quality job and if your personality fits. Anyway, they know that guys from eaglejet or whatever won't be able to pay more than their first 500 hours of experience on type. So where is the problem? Paying for our experience on type does not mean that we are bad pilots, it is just one solution to put our CV out of the pile. (and everyone is free to do whatever he wants with his money).
Most chef pilots or DFOs in major airlines (even in Europe) have no idea which airlines are giving pay to fly services. If you are stupid enough to say that you paid your line training... The airline I went through is well known in Asia and I sent few months ago my resume to a major in the UK; I have been invited for an interview thanks to my hours on type I suppose. It maybe a proof that my CV has not been sent to the bin.
Go and do whatever it takes to get the job , even paying your TR or line training (if you have no other choice). Do not listen jealous guys, most of them are loosers who spend their time criticize on a forum because they're scared to move their ass.
I heard a lot of guys like you saying that self funding a line training will prevent the pilot from joining a respectable airline bla bla bla....
I decided to go that way over a year ago and I am now flying the A320 in a respectable airline in Asia and believe me even if some senior pilots are against this idea, there is no problem if you do a quality job and if your personality fits. Anyway, they know that guys from eaglejet or whatever won't be able to pay more than their first 500 hours of experience on type. So where is the problem? Paying for our experience on type does not mean that we are bad pilots, it is just one solution to put our CV out of the pile. (and everyone is free to do whatever he wants with his money).
Any CVs that even hint at that kind of thing go straight in the bin.
Go and do whatever it takes to get the job , even paying your TR or line training (if you have no other choice). Do not listen jealous guys, most of them are loosers who spend their time criticize on a forum because they're scared to move their ass.
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The airline I went through is well known in Asia and I sent few months ago my resume to a major in the UK; I have been invited for an interview thanks to my hours on type I suppose. It maybe a proof that my CV has not been sent to the bin.
really?? How on this earth could you figure that out?
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Its a Utility Industry Now
This is all symptomatic of any industry that is aggressively looking at ways to reduce costs. The world however isnt a fair place. So I can sympathise with those that cannot continue to subsidise that process of reducing costs. Its also supply and demand and low world interest rates that have caused this.
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The airline I went through is well known in Asia and I sent few months ago my resume to a major in the UK; I have been invited for an interview thanks to my hours on type I suppose. It maybe a proof that my CV has not been sent to the bin.
Go and do whatever it takes to get the job , even paying your TR or line training (if you have no other choice). Do not listen jealous guys, most of them are loosers who spend their time criticize on a forum because they're scared to move their ass.
Get in the real world....PLENTY of senior people are not happy with this kind of thing
(I know of another CP who does exactly as Luke says)
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Shredder
Today i had to go down the office and while there i had a chat with somebody who is in charge of filtering the CV's before they move "up". He showed me some of the CV's, willing to fund a TP type rating(no surprise), some stated that "salary was negotaible" or similar langauge.Never seen the guy before and he turned out to be a nice chap.Now the fun begins,i put the the self funding offers on one pile and said that these should go in the bin.Didn't expect that to happen but it did,he started to slide a bunch of them in to the shredder!!
The best part is where he gave me a couple of CV's to stuff in the shredder,of you go.It really made my day
Who said nobody could make a difference ?
The best part is where he gave me a couple of CV's to stuff in the shredder,of you go.It really made my day
Who said nobody could make a difference ?
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hazehoe
I dont disagree with your point of view. I can see you are passionate about this subject. However, by shredding CVs you are being vindictive to some of the most vunerable people in aviaition, those who have yet to find a foot on the ladder.
I would suggest next time you are in the office you talk to the company Accountant and persaude him or her to start properly paying for individuals to be trained. I think you will find the financial community are the biggests culprits to the creation of TRSS, buy a type rating, 300hrs and we will give you a job etc, etc.
I dont disagree with your point of view. I can see you are passionate about this subject. However, by shredding CVs you are being vindictive to some of the most vunerable people in aviaition, those who have yet to find a foot on the ladder.
I would suggest next time you are in the office you talk to the company Accountant and persaude him or her to start properly paying for individuals to be trained. I think you will find the financial community are the biggests culprits to the creation of TRSS, buy a type rating, 300hrs and we will give you a job etc, etc.
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A320 RIDER IS RIGHT
What you do with your money guys is totally up to you.
Be very careful who you spend your money with chaps.
I've spoken recently to a guy who is on the case in Brussles.
Just watch what is going to happen in a few months time.
Be very careful who you spend your money with chaps.
I've spoken recently to a guy who is on the case in Brussles.
Just watch what is going to happen in a few months time.
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Pay to Play! Who is the ignorant one here! What about airforce pilots going civilian?
Here is a question I would like to know.
I have a friend that is a dentist in Italy, he is a very good dentist and went 5 years to school for this.
Now my friend is 45 years old, he has is own dentist business. Self employed. Every week he goes 2 days to school in France to further his education, to improve his education with new technology. He pays for the travel and for the course to improve his position as a dentist.
He has now become an expert on lazer technology in the dentist field, and now has license to teach/instruct other dentists of this technology!
His actually become one of the most leading in Italy with this technology. He has been doing this since he finished dentist school, going few days every month in the beging taking new courses improving his skills.
He invested in new equipment worth 250.000 Euro for his office - my friend is not a millionare! He is passionate for his work and business, so invested in himself.
I am self employed, I have been self employed all my life. When I was young (18 years old) I used to work 12 hours a day in a factory to get enough money to get my flying hours, I took 150 hours night and day, all payed by me. In 1988 each flying hour was £50 (in Norway) Nobody helped me, I had NO rich family, but I made sacrifices myself. I did not go out an enjoy the good life, I did not waste my money on stupid cars, or beautifull girls (they wasted their money on me instead)
Because of lack of money I gave up my DREAM, since I was 13 years old. I took my PPL during time at college and finish college, I was 19 when I got my PPL. (I did not have the money, I could not get into any sponsorships because that time it did not exist to many, and the few that was around was like a lottery anyway - wearing glasses you would be F.... d anyway that time)
Yes I am bitter on the system, because most of the pilots around are "lazy" airforce pilots, that had all their education payed for by the government, they had a free pass to all Scandinavien airlines in the 80's and 90's. They were the chosen ones ALWAYS.
Now I have worked hard for myself and I have built a business that I can run even if I should start flying, I am 36, I am getting old to start, and I know jobs will be limited because of my age and experience. I have to money to INVEST in my OWN future, because yes this for me is my passion, but it is also a business venture. I expect to get results within a certain amount of time. Altough I would love to spend 8 years to get enough flight experience to land a job, the fact is that I will be 44 years old by then. So this for me is not a good idea.
However I see myself doing example EFTA 1500 hours multi program, then Type and buying myself block hours eg. 300 - 500 on Boeing. Why?
Because then I will be competitve at the age of 39 - 40, instead of 44. The money I have spent extra to get to my level of experience, will be a good investment considering I then have 4 years extra to get a job, I will have 4 years more to be working in my career if I choose this.
The true fact running my own current business full time I could make the triple that I would be making as an airline pilot, so money is not the essence of this, its passion. Nobody can say I am spoiled rich kid, because choosing this way I make big sacrifices, just like all have done to reach their goals.
I understand many of you on this thread does not understand the concept of business to well, passion is flying, but we want it to add up contra the investment end of the day. What is the size of the investment to improve my skills and be better educated (if taking type rating and block hours) compared to the investment of my friend who is a self employed dentist!
All professional aim to better themselves and get better education. So they will be better qualified.
How many of you experienced pilots in the airline come with background from the airforce? This was free, government paid training! Give me that chance any day, I would go trough hell to qualify, but NO I was not given that chance!
But instead of staying in the airforce, where your training was free and you was paid, you have come to the civilian airlines, taken the best jobs, the best paid jobs, and your education have cost you 0!
I want to be competitve with the next airforce pilot coming trough to go civilian, why dont they stay where they had all FREE! Is it because there is more money with the airlines?
I wonder why!!!
I understand pilots saying this schemes undermines the pilots jobs, but they have themselves created this situation! They have tried to make it an elite job, by often frowning on privately educated pilots from the USA. Airlines in europe have had their own academys and the airforce to choose from, while privately educated pilots have been 3.rd class category, the last resort if they cant get anyone better.
So Eagle offers a scheme to give pilots more experience, to get a better qualification.
"you who said you had 3 friends after Eagle that was without a job" - I bet you that they will have a job long before others with lesser experience if they accept to go working anywhere in the world for an airline job!
I believe with 500 hours on type you will be able to get a job as an airline pilot, unless you have to many conditions to take care of! Family, location etc.
If I decided to go ahead with EFT and type and Eagle block, this would all cost me approx. $140.000 or £80.000 - This would prolong my career in the aviation with 4 years - Will I be able to make up the balance of these £80.000 within 4 years, I think so, that would be £20.000 each year.
I have a friend that is a dentist in Italy, he is a very good dentist and went 5 years to school for this.
Now my friend is 45 years old, he has is own dentist business. Self employed. Every week he goes 2 days to school in France to further his education, to improve his education with new technology. He pays for the travel and for the course to improve his position as a dentist.
He has now become an expert on lazer technology in the dentist field, and now has license to teach/instruct other dentists of this technology!
His actually become one of the most leading in Italy with this technology. He has been doing this since he finished dentist school, going few days every month in the beging taking new courses improving his skills.
He invested in new equipment worth 250.000 Euro for his office - my friend is not a millionare! He is passionate for his work and business, so invested in himself.
I am self employed, I have been self employed all my life. When I was young (18 years old) I used to work 12 hours a day in a factory to get enough money to get my flying hours, I took 150 hours night and day, all payed by me. In 1988 each flying hour was £50 (in Norway) Nobody helped me, I had NO rich family, but I made sacrifices myself. I did not go out an enjoy the good life, I did not waste my money on stupid cars, or beautifull girls (they wasted their money on me instead)
Because of lack of money I gave up my DREAM, since I was 13 years old. I took my PPL during time at college and finish college, I was 19 when I got my PPL. (I did not have the money, I could not get into any sponsorships because that time it did not exist to many, and the few that was around was like a lottery anyway - wearing glasses you would be F.... d anyway that time)
Yes I am bitter on the system, because most of the pilots around are "lazy" airforce pilots, that had all their education payed for by the government, they had a free pass to all Scandinavien airlines in the 80's and 90's. They were the chosen ones ALWAYS.
Now I have worked hard for myself and I have built a business that I can run even if I should start flying, I am 36, I am getting old to start, and I know jobs will be limited because of my age and experience. I have to money to INVEST in my OWN future, because yes this for me is my passion, but it is also a business venture. I expect to get results within a certain amount of time. Altough I would love to spend 8 years to get enough flight experience to land a job, the fact is that I will be 44 years old by then. So this for me is not a good idea.
However I see myself doing example EFTA 1500 hours multi program, then Type and buying myself block hours eg. 300 - 500 on Boeing. Why?
Because then I will be competitve at the age of 39 - 40, instead of 44. The money I have spent extra to get to my level of experience, will be a good investment considering I then have 4 years extra to get a job, I will have 4 years more to be working in my career if I choose this.
The true fact running my own current business full time I could make the triple that I would be making as an airline pilot, so money is not the essence of this, its passion. Nobody can say I am spoiled rich kid, because choosing this way I make big sacrifices, just like all have done to reach their goals.
I understand many of you on this thread does not understand the concept of business to well, passion is flying, but we want it to add up contra the investment end of the day. What is the size of the investment to improve my skills and be better educated (if taking type rating and block hours) compared to the investment of my friend who is a self employed dentist!
All professional aim to better themselves and get better education. So they will be better qualified.
How many of you experienced pilots in the airline come with background from the airforce? This was free, government paid training! Give me that chance any day, I would go trough hell to qualify, but NO I was not given that chance!
But instead of staying in the airforce, where your training was free and you was paid, you have come to the civilian airlines, taken the best jobs, the best paid jobs, and your education have cost you 0!
I want to be competitve with the next airforce pilot coming trough to go civilian, why dont they stay where they had all FREE! Is it because there is more money with the airlines?
I wonder why!!!
I understand pilots saying this schemes undermines the pilots jobs, but they have themselves created this situation! They have tried to make it an elite job, by often frowning on privately educated pilots from the USA. Airlines in europe have had their own academys and the airforce to choose from, while privately educated pilots have been 3.rd class category, the last resort if they cant get anyone better.
So Eagle offers a scheme to give pilots more experience, to get a better qualification.
"you who said you had 3 friends after Eagle that was without a job" - I bet you that they will have a job long before others with lesser experience if they accept to go working anywhere in the world for an airline job!
I believe with 500 hours on type you will be able to get a job as an airline pilot, unless you have to many conditions to take care of! Family, location etc.
If I decided to go ahead with EFT and type and Eagle block, this would all cost me approx. $140.000 or £80.000 - This would prolong my career in the aviation with 4 years - Will I be able to make up the balance of these £80.000 within 4 years, I think so, that would be £20.000 each year.
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Pay to play!
Just one short remark, why should I be punished because I have worked hard and found a way to pay for my hours other then just instruct. Most instructing jobs are mostly on single engine, so they have little or no value - and they are also under paid, because of the supply and demand! The rot already starts on this level.
Flight schools tempting students on J1 Visa, to come and fly for 15 months - ONLY TO BENEFIT the schools. Those 15 months if unlucky can cost you your whole education - because the schools always promise more then they are willing to actually give you. Then its every one for their own already at this level.
Personally I would want to instruct for a period of time to gain I believe valuable experience. But there would be a limit for me for how long time I would be willing to do that.
Its not ONLY rich kids who do this, this I am sure of, I think people invest in their future, possibly taking big risks, bigger risks then most of you already sitting in the cosy left hand seat have ever needed to take.
The ones sitting in the right hands seat today belongs to the golden age, for the newbies life is harder!
Flight schools tempting students on J1 Visa, to come and fly for 15 months - ONLY TO BENEFIT the schools. Those 15 months if unlucky can cost you your whole education - because the schools always promise more then they are willing to actually give you. Then its every one for their own already at this level.
Personally I would want to instruct for a period of time to gain I believe valuable experience. But there would be a limit for me for how long time I would be willing to do that.
Its not ONLY rich kids who do this, this I am sure of, I think people invest in their future, possibly taking big risks, bigger risks then most of you already sitting in the cosy left hand seat have ever needed to take.
The ones sitting in the right hands seat today belongs to the golden age, for the newbies life is harder!
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tigermagicjohn,
you're missing the big picture. Paying to work for 300 or 500 hours is not training. You don't need that hours to have experience enough to fly for the airlines; if you have a rating you are more then well prepared. The only reason people who have bought their time are employed instead of others is because - they have more time! If the schemes were not allowed, the airlines would have to choose from the big pilot group consisting of pilots without the rating and/or time and you would be able to compete with ALL other pilots, instead of just the ones who pay to cut the line.
That's exactly the difference between having your own business and being employed! If you have your own business, you pay for all the costs yourself!
What's that supposed to mean? With "lazy" and "free pass" and "chosen ones", do you mean the very extensive selection process they all have to go through? What all pilots who don't pay for their training have to go through.
What!? What do you mean give you the chance!? You have had the chance all your life and obviously you haven't qualified!!! You don't "go through hell" to qualify, you have the right requirements (genes, education, etc.). Or do you think everybody who wants to be a pilot should be admitted?
Don't be fooled! Even with 500 hours on type you will have to go through a rigorous assessment process. To be "of the right stuff" is far more important then having 500 hours on type.
You say that you "understand many of [us] on this thread [do] not understand the concept of business to well". If the pay is determined by supply and demand it can't by definition be under paid! To me it seems you desperately try to justify to yourself why you should be able to be a pilot by mixing bad economics with jealousy. The difference between instructing and Eagle Jet is that instructors have always been low paid because of supply and demand, whereas what's happening now with Eagle Jet is just temporary mainly because of the temporary recession in aviation. It is of everybody's interest to regulate this until the system has found its pace.
Please stop discussing if this is right or wrong. Nobody who should care does care! The few airlines that "employ" pay-to-fly pilots do so to cut costs, not because they think it's the right thing to do. Eagle Jet obviously does it to make money, not because they feel the urge to help lowtimers. And finally, the people who buy in to the scheme do it to cut the line. If the EU is going to stop this it will be because of simple economics.
you're missing the big picture. Paying to work for 300 or 500 hours is not training. You don't need that hours to have experience enough to fly for the airlines; if you have a rating you are more then well prepared. The only reason people who have bought their time are employed instead of others is because - they have more time! If the schemes were not allowed, the airlines would have to choose from the big pilot group consisting of pilots without the rating and/or time and you would be able to compete with ALL other pilots, instead of just the ones who pay to cut the line.
Originally Posted by tigermagicjohn
Now my friend is 45 years old, he has is own dentist business. Self employed.
Originally Posted by tigermagicjohn
Yes I am bitter on the system, because most of the pilots around are "lazy" airforce pilots, that had all their education payed for by the government, they had a free pass to all Scandinavien airlines in the 80's and 90's. They were the chosen ones ALWAYS.
Originally Posted by tigermagicjohn
Give me that chance any day, I would go trough hell to qualify, but NO I was not given that chance!
Originally Posted by tigermagicjohn
I believe with 500 hours on type you will be able to get a job as an airline pilot, unless you have to many conditions to take care of!
Originally Posted by tigermagicjohn
Most instructing jobs are mostly on single engine, so they have little or no value - and they are also under paid, because of the supply and demand!
Please stop discussing if this is right or wrong. Nobody who should care does care! The few airlines that "employ" pay-to-fly pilots do so to cut costs, not because they think it's the right thing to do. Eagle Jet obviously does it to make money, not because they feel the urge to help lowtimers. And finally, the people who buy in to the scheme do it to cut the line. If the EU is going to stop this it will be because of simple economics.
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Pay to play!
A rating alone is useless without hours. At many airlines now the minimum to qualify to apply as FO is 500 hours on type! (commercial)
To say that a low hour pilot with who takes type and line training at own expense is dangerous, would undermine the cadet system used by BA and Lufthansa.
These are low hour pilots who fly FO after minimal time.
Regarding the free pass of airforce pilots, there is something you dont understand on this point, I passed all aptitude tests, education test, I even had my PPL within 50 hours - because of refractive error on glasses they can pick who they want. Airforce pilots are not often the best pilots for CAA, because they are solo operators when flying jets.
I am not jealous of this, I believe most would have loved to fly fighter jets, I also believe most that are really interested would not have mind the selection process. As an example for my I passed all tests except "i was wearing glasses" - they offered me higher officer school for the army, but I said f... them, not interested. They have their selection process and so do I.
Now these pilots tie themelves to many years contract and have a safe job for life, still these pilots normally as soon as their bonding period expires seek to get into civilian aviation. And they get "free pass" by the airlines when applying the jobs that are available.
I know this was at least a fact in 80's and 90's with SAS, all airforce pilots finish bonding period would go direct into SAS. And they only go civilian motivated by MONEY!
Now this I dont understand, now you make your calculations as a civilian education you will spend around £60.000 to get your certs. - you will spend another 3 - 4 years living on bread and water instructing. If you want to get your type rating spend another £20.000 which is useless if you have 0 hours, nobody will hire you with this.
Regarding assesment test for being the right stuff, this does not daunt me the slightest, I am not being arrogant on that issue - this is different from person to person, but assesment tests, aptitude tests does not frighten me the slightest. What frightens me is that today if you show your application with 1500 hours total time, and if you have managed to set up 500 - 700 hours multiengine as instructor this will most likely NOT qualify you for getting an airline job! Most want 500 hours on JET as a starter!
I would be very interested to know how many hours an airforce jet flyer has logged within a similar 2 year period as you would get logging 1500 hours training and instructing!
Now you also say I am jealous, why?? I dont understand, by looking at some of the threads on here, I am not sure why I should be jealous! It seems the times are so hard, and it seems the ones already with one foot inside the business only to easy try to advice others "not" to do this or that. Dont buy hours, dont go working for Ryan Air, dont pay for your own type rating, its easy for the ones already in a steady job to say this. What about those pilots with few thousand hours, loads of experience but cant get job, because their experience are on the wrong type of aircrafts that will land them jobs.
Me being jealous is ridiculos, I do understand if people cant afford to pay for this they are frustrated, they feel its unfair, unsocialistic - but we dont live in China or Russia - as for Eagle being shut down in Europe, this does not matter, if somebody is doing this for experience they will go wherever they need to go - and EU will have no effect on this business in Asia.
I think some are talking double standards in this case, because being able to save up this kind of money means one is making great sacrifices. If I decide to go ahead and invest this money in myself, I am actually an IDIOT, because if I spent this money on my other business I would probably triple it within 6 - 12 months, but this is my choice.
Now some want pilots who do this to be blacklisted, that their applications should be shredded! Maybe the airlines should have opened up for more cadet programs then, because first of all it would have ment less people wasting their money on flight schools, because they would go trough the selection process and education with the airline and be guaranteed a job. Instead the airlines prefer to see people believe in the illusion that there might be job at end of the road, after you have spent £60.000 and have 200 hours flying time. We all know there is no jobs there now with that amount of time, however this does not mean that these are bad pilots.
Actually several airlines with their own cadet program have let cadets step in as FO with very little total time, but pilots from "outside" must beg, cry and scream to be heard. I am definatly not jealous - actually the way I see it maybe I would enjoy just flying for myself.
I have a friend who is FO on 747 for Cathay, he say now the only flying he enjoys is when he has time to go flying with the sailplane!
Personally I love to fly, and have yet to decide what I am going to with my passion, but reading some of you guys experiences it seems like a job from hell! If you at all get the job!
To say that a low hour pilot with who takes type and line training at own expense is dangerous, would undermine the cadet system used by BA and Lufthansa.
These are low hour pilots who fly FO after minimal time.
Regarding the free pass of airforce pilots, there is something you dont understand on this point, I passed all aptitude tests, education test, I even had my PPL within 50 hours - because of refractive error on glasses they can pick who they want. Airforce pilots are not often the best pilots for CAA, because they are solo operators when flying jets.
I am not jealous of this, I believe most would have loved to fly fighter jets, I also believe most that are really interested would not have mind the selection process. As an example for my I passed all tests except "i was wearing glasses" - they offered me higher officer school for the army, but I said f... them, not interested. They have their selection process and so do I.
Now these pilots tie themelves to many years contract and have a safe job for life, still these pilots normally as soon as their bonding period expires seek to get into civilian aviation. And they get "free pass" by the airlines when applying the jobs that are available.
I know this was at least a fact in 80's and 90's with SAS, all airforce pilots finish bonding period would go direct into SAS. And they only go civilian motivated by MONEY!
Now this I dont understand, now you make your calculations as a civilian education you will spend around £60.000 to get your certs. - you will spend another 3 - 4 years living on bread and water instructing. If you want to get your type rating spend another £20.000 which is useless if you have 0 hours, nobody will hire you with this.
Regarding assesment test for being the right stuff, this does not daunt me the slightest, I am not being arrogant on that issue - this is different from person to person, but assesment tests, aptitude tests does not frighten me the slightest. What frightens me is that today if you show your application with 1500 hours total time, and if you have managed to set up 500 - 700 hours multiengine as instructor this will most likely NOT qualify you for getting an airline job! Most want 500 hours on JET as a starter!
I would be very interested to know how many hours an airforce jet flyer has logged within a similar 2 year period as you would get logging 1500 hours training and instructing!
Now you also say I am jealous, why?? I dont understand, by looking at some of the threads on here, I am not sure why I should be jealous! It seems the times are so hard, and it seems the ones already with one foot inside the business only to easy try to advice others "not" to do this or that. Dont buy hours, dont go working for Ryan Air, dont pay for your own type rating, its easy for the ones already in a steady job to say this. What about those pilots with few thousand hours, loads of experience but cant get job, because their experience are on the wrong type of aircrafts that will land them jobs.
Me being jealous is ridiculos, I do understand if people cant afford to pay for this they are frustrated, they feel its unfair, unsocialistic - but we dont live in China or Russia - as for Eagle being shut down in Europe, this does not matter, if somebody is doing this for experience they will go wherever they need to go - and EU will have no effect on this business in Asia.
I think some are talking double standards in this case, because being able to save up this kind of money means one is making great sacrifices. If I decide to go ahead and invest this money in myself, I am actually an IDIOT, because if I spent this money on my other business I would probably triple it within 6 - 12 months, but this is my choice.
Now some want pilots who do this to be blacklisted, that their applications should be shredded! Maybe the airlines should have opened up for more cadet programs then, because first of all it would have ment less people wasting their money on flight schools, because they would go trough the selection process and education with the airline and be guaranteed a job. Instead the airlines prefer to see people believe in the illusion that there might be job at end of the road, after you have spent £60.000 and have 200 hours flying time. We all know there is no jobs there now with that amount of time, however this does not mean that these are bad pilots.
Actually several airlines with their own cadet program have let cadets step in as FO with very little total time, but pilots from "outside" must beg, cry and scream to be heard. I am definatly not jealous - actually the way I see it maybe I would enjoy just flying for myself.
I have a friend who is FO on 747 for Cathay, he say now the only flying he enjoys is when he has time to go flying with the sailplane!
Personally I love to fly, and have yet to decide what I am going to with my passion, but reading some of you guys experiences it seems like a job from hell! If you at all get the job!