Anybody Knows How many Self-TypeRated are Unemployed?
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tom24;
Let's try to be a bit rational then and keep it a JOB - the way people are acting today this is quickly turning into a (rather expensive) hobby.
Now THIS may sound harsh, but I have bills to pay and as long as people like you are prepared to do anything at any price my chance of paying those bills in the long run is getting smaller!
So where do YOU draw the line then? Pay for TR, pay for TR + Line Training, work for free, pay to "work"?
You say that you "couldn't give a hoot about anyone else" - well you don't have to say that, it's quite obvious. What does offend me is that, that "anyone" is me and every other pilot in this business! Even though I'm not "competing with you" I think it is getting harder for management to justify why they should pay me a proper salary for a days work, when others are prepared to do it for free!
We do this job because its our life time dream.
May sound harsh, but i have myself to look after and personally couldn't give a hoot about anyone else competing with me....
So where do YOU draw the line then? Pay for TR, pay for TR + Line Training, work for free, pay to "work"?
You say that you "couldn't give a hoot about anyone else" - well you don't have to say that, it's quite obvious. What does offend me is that, that "anyone" is me and every other pilot in this business! Even though I'm not "competing with you" I think it is getting harder for management to justify why they should pay me a proper salary for a days work, when others are prepared to do it for free!
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TR's + EU Jet
I hope the people who joined EU Jet as SO's, paid the £8k for their Fokker 100 TR's only to start off on £16k'ish feel that it was worth it !!!!
............. read on another thread that the guy running the show was taking about £2400 a day for himself out of the business !
When will people wise up ................ DON'T PAY FOR YOUR OWN TYPE RATING !!!!
Nuff said
............. read on another thread that the guy running the show was taking about £2400 a day for himself out of the business !
When will people wise up ................ DON'T PAY FOR YOUR OWN TYPE RATING !!!!
Nuff said
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Dear oh dear some of you just don't get it.
Skunkworks, believe it or not I do feel sorry for yours and a lot of other peoples predicament but I’m not going to sit around waiting for airlines to come knocking on my door whilst other people out there get off their asses and do something about their predicaments and take up these offers!
Canada Goose. Why don't you think before you blab? These guys have paid £8,000 (though I heard it was £6k). They have probably amassed over 500 hours on jets and will probably walk into a job in the not too distant future. Go on, tell me i should do an instructors rating instead and earn £10k a year instead of £16k....
Myself, I probably wouldn't have subscribed to this idea as it was probably doomed from the start. Anybody with an ounce of understanding of the working World would have been able to predict that this airline had a limited life.
People STOP being so ignorant. You take your chances, you make your luck.
Skunkworks, believe it or not I do feel sorry for yours and a lot of other peoples predicament but I’m not going to sit around waiting for airlines to come knocking on my door whilst other people out there get off their asses and do something about their predicaments and take up these offers!
Canada Goose. Why don't you think before you blab? These guys have paid £8,000 (though I heard it was £6k). They have probably amassed over 500 hours on jets and will probably walk into a job in the not too distant future. Go on, tell me i should do an instructors rating instead and earn £10k a year instead of £16k....
Myself, I probably wouldn't have subscribed to this idea as it was probably doomed from the start. Anybody with an ounce of understanding of the working World would have been able to predict that this airline had a limited life.
People STOP being so ignorant. You take your chances, you make your luck.
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You are so right - some of us just don't get it!
From your post last week:
This is the problem! You expect to come straight out of Flight School and then start flying a 737 or an Airbus! You and your buddies think that you can "get ahead" by selling yourselves cheaper than the "competition".
You are talking about command. I'm sure that when a vacancy comes along in the LHS, you will be prepared to pay for the Command training and to stay on your FO salary - just to "get ahead".
It would be interesting if you answered the question I asked in the previous post - Where do YOU draw the line for what you are prepared to do to get the job?
[Edit: Accidentally pressed submit half-way through the post.]
From your post last week:
Have you considered doing something constructive, i.e. self-sponsoring a type. Lets face it, if you don't do that, the chances are you'll be instructing on a 152 or flying TP's on a low salary for the next three years. You may as well just take the extra financial hit now and you'll more than break even within 3 years flying a 737/A320. You'll also be 3 years closer to command. Its not rocket science really. If you say you can't afford it, then that's your problem as you should have realised from the start that having to self-sponsor a type to get ahead would be a real possibility.
You are talking about command. I'm sure that when a vacancy comes along in the LHS, you will be prepared to pay for the Command training and to stay on your FO salary - just to "get ahead".
It would be interesting if you answered the question I asked in the previous post - Where do YOU draw the line for what you are prepared to do to get the job?
[Edit: Accidentally pressed submit half-way through the post.]
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I'd please the Chief Pilots woman........
Skunk, its my opinion and the way I'd do things. I'm not there yet but I have considered every possible eventuality and all I'll say is that I'll want to recoup my training costs ASAP and from there I hope to go on and live a comfortable life. I really hope that I won't be faced with your problems, but one thing is for sure, if I do I won't be lurking around these forums day in day out trawling through peoples past posts, because that certainly will not solve any problems.
Skunk, its my opinion and the way I'd do things. I'm not there yet but I have considered every possible eventuality and all I'll say is that I'll want to recoup my training costs ASAP and from there I hope to go on and live a comfortable life. I really hope that I won't be faced with your problems, but one thing is for sure, if I do I won't be lurking around these forums day in day out trawling through peoples past posts, because that certainly will not solve any problems.
Last edited by tom24; 29th Jul 2005 at 14:17.
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TOM24
Your post is assuming:
1. Everyone has the money to pay for a TR
2. That pilots who are in debt to a large amount CAN take the financial hit, especially if they have mortgages and families.
3. Someone ACTUALLY wants to hire you.
Ideas are alot easier said than done.
An FI rating is generally 1/4 of the price of a TR and keeps people flying. I agree a C152 is not the best aircraft in the world to prepare you for a RHS on a A320.
Please remeber that alot of the frustrations are born out of the the fact that if we could pay for a TR, honestly, we probably would.
Some cynics say that if you want it bad enough you have to take the steps to get a job. These are probably the same individuals who have had everything paid for by someone else. Thats not a bitter view, just an observation of the plethora of varied characters in aviation.
It woukld be great if there is a shortage of pilots in the near future. Then, the posts would be entitled "the cheeky ba@tards at x airline had the front to ask me for some money".
Your post is assuming:
1. Everyone has the money to pay for a TR
2. That pilots who are in debt to a large amount CAN take the financial hit, especially if they have mortgages and families.
3. Someone ACTUALLY wants to hire you.
Ideas are alot easier said than done.
An FI rating is generally 1/4 of the price of a TR and keeps people flying. I agree a C152 is not the best aircraft in the world to prepare you for a RHS on a A320.
Please remeber that alot of the frustrations are born out of the the fact that if we could pay for a TR, honestly, we probably would.
Some cynics say that if you want it bad enough you have to take the steps to get a job. These are probably the same individuals who have had everything paid for by someone else. Thats not a bitter view, just an observation of the plethora of varied characters in aviation.
It woukld be great if there is a shortage of pilots in the near future. Then, the posts would be entitled "the cheeky ba@tards at x airline had the front to ask me for some money".
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Tom24....Sorry i didnt reply last month
A few things for you to consider when your planning your Type Rating:
1. Type courses are never easy or cheap! The more complex the A/C the worse it gets. Thats a bad thing to start.......say, for example, it was 15k and it was an A320. With just 250hrs it would be very technical and incredibly difficult and with the pressure of having to pass the LST, I personally, would be very close to braking point! I wouldnt want to come out the other end of a type course having failed my LST...............and it does happen!!!
If an airline was paying for it then there would be less pressure because your airline would almost certainly pay for a few additional hours if you needed it. On top of that the examiner would probably be in house and hoping/helping you pass.
2. You will ruin the T&C's for everyone else including yourself. I've got my job now and only today I was discussing how I am one of a new generation of pilots,that being the low paid ones with nothing much to look forward to! As the captain to my left has a large house,nice car, big pay cheque and comfortable life......I on the other hand have naff all and my T&C's dictate it will stay that way for a long time! In fact i dont earn enough to get a mortgage!
3. It is generally looked down upon by most pilots who didnt pay for their own training. How that would make your relations on the flight deck with captains, i dont know. You certainly wont be able to hold your head up high and say you worked damn hard to get that job.
4. You should take a stand against stupid dumb ass schemes like the SSTR's. I for one can say that i was in a pretty desperate situation before i got my job. However, I never once applied to Ryanair......I worked hard and plugged away till something came good!
5. Airlines like to train you to their own SOP's/standards.......You probably wouldnt be much use to an airline without time on type and knowledge of their working SOP's. Recently a friend of mine was told by an airline that they were to take him with a TR that they hadn't trained him to then thy would have to untrain him again to get him to the right standard.......................Basically it is frowned upon by alot of airlines even you have the TR that they operate! strange but true!!!
6. There will always be a situation where people can pay for their job and as a training captain said to me not long ago: "there are people who dont need to pay for jobs and there are people who do!" ...............Now ask yourself, would you want to be one of those pilots who had to pay for his/her job when your colleagues had theres paid for them!
Just to cover my own ass:
Yeah i paid for my own basic training but never paid for anything else! I got my job with low hours through lots of begging and pleading! Never once did i apply to an airline where i would have to pay for my own training nor did i contemplate doing my own TR!
In general Tom24 and everyone else, its not a good idea!!
A few things for you to consider when your planning your Type Rating:
1. Type courses are never easy or cheap! The more complex the A/C the worse it gets. Thats a bad thing to start.......say, for example, it was 15k and it was an A320. With just 250hrs it would be very technical and incredibly difficult and with the pressure of having to pass the LST, I personally, would be very close to braking point! I wouldnt want to come out the other end of a type course having failed my LST...............and it does happen!!!
If an airline was paying for it then there would be less pressure because your airline would almost certainly pay for a few additional hours if you needed it. On top of that the examiner would probably be in house and hoping/helping you pass.
2. You will ruin the T&C's for everyone else including yourself. I've got my job now and only today I was discussing how I am one of a new generation of pilots,that being the low paid ones with nothing much to look forward to! As the captain to my left has a large house,nice car, big pay cheque and comfortable life......I on the other hand have naff all and my T&C's dictate it will stay that way for a long time! In fact i dont earn enough to get a mortgage!
3. It is generally looked down upon by most pilots who didnt pay for their own training. How that would make your relations on the flight deck with captains, i dont know. You certainly wont be able to hold your head up high and say you worked damn hard to get that job.
4. You should take a stand against stupid dumb ass schemes like the SSTR's. I for one can say that i was in a pretty desperate situation before i got my job. However, I never once applied to Ryanair......I worked hard and plugged away till something came good!
5. Airlines like to train you to their own SOP's/standards.......You probably wouldnt be much use to an airline without time on type and knowledge of their working SOP's. Recently a friend of mine was told by an airline that they were to take him with a TR that they hadn't trained him to then thy would have to untrain him again to get him to the right standard.......................Basically it is frowned upon by alot of airlines even you have the TR that they operate! strange but true!!!
6. There will always be a situation where people can pay for their job and as a training captain said to me not long ago: "there are people who dont need to pay for jobs and there are people who do!" ...............Now ask yourself, would you want to be one of those pilots who had to pay for his/her job when your colleagues had theres paid for them!
Just to cover my own ass:
Yeah i paid for my own basic training but never paid for anything else! I got my job with low hours through lots of begging and pleading! Never once did i apply to an airline where i would have to pay for my own training nor did i contemplate doing my own TR!
In general Tom24 and everyone else, its not a good idea!!
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So here goes for thost that did SSTRs (and line training)....
I know many people who did SSTRs. I know of only one that walked straight into a job, and that was with EZY before they stopped taking zero-houred pilots (outside the bizarre CTC selection/course).
All the rest of the guys who paid for their SSTRs also paid for some line training. 2 now work for Monarch. 1 for Ryanair. 1 for Air Asia. 2 at Livingstone. 1 at Eurofly. And another six or so (including me) flying the A320 in the Far East, and dont want to come back to the land of tax, traffic jams, bad weather, crime, etc.
If you look at why airlines dont want zero-houred guys, its because jets are really very different. You have a different set of skills and experience to those the airlines require. 1500TT on 152s or shepherding PPLs around in a PA28 really bears very little relation to programming the computer/managing the FCU to fly 70 tonnes in tightly-controlled airspace using minimum fuel/time. Also, landing technique is much more precise (ie less forgiving), handling/momentum is a big issue, and most importantly personality is everything. Many of the people on the boards here demonstrate either a lack of maturity. Really, how would you like to sit next to many of the guys who post on the boards here, for eight or nine hours non-stop, with no-one else to talk to? And God forbid there was a technical problem....
So guys, stop thinking all your single-crew light prop hours make you attractive. If you are deadly serious, and somewhat impatient, start thinking about the total economics of a type rating/line training followed by years of an FO salary. You will soon see that instructing or boring circles in the sky pays less/costs you more (net) over 3 years, and you may still never get you into the right seat of a jet.
If the job market really picks up over the next year, we can all celebrate at how minimal jet experience and bizarre personality tests will be put away. Until then, I would encourage everyone to at least speak to AeroMadrid, Eaglejet and Contractair....
I know many people who did SSTRs. I know of only one that walked straight into a job, and that was with EZY before they stopped taking zero-houred pilots (outside the bizarre CTC selection/course).
All the rest of the guys who paid for their SSTRs also paid for some line training. 2 now work for Monarch. 1 for Ryanair. 1 for Air Asia. 2 at Livingstone. 1 at Eurofly. And another six or so (including me) flying the A320 in the Far East, and dont want to come back to the land of tax, traffic jams, bad weather, crime, etc.
If you look at why airlines dont want zero-houred guys, its because jets are really very different. You have a different set of skills and experience to those the airlines require. 1500TT on 152s or shepherding PPLs around in a PA28 really bears very little relation to programming the computer/managing the FCU to fly 70 tonnes in tightly-controlled airspace using minimum fuel/time. Also, landing technique is much more precise (ie less forgiving), handling/momentum is a big issue, and most importantly personality is everything. Many of the people on the boards here demonstrate either a lack of maturity. Really, how would you like to sit next to many of the guys who post on the boards here, for eight or nine hours non-stop, with no-one else to talk to? And God forbid there was a technical problem....
So guys, stop thinking all your single-crew light prop hours make you attractive. If you are deadly serious, and somewhat impatient, start thinking about the total economics of a type rating/line training followed by years of an FO salary. You will soon see that instructing or boring circles in the sky pays less/costs you more (net) over 3 years, and you may still never get you into the right seat of a jet.
If the job market really picks up over the next year, we can all celebrate at how minimal jet experience and bizarre personality tests will be put away. Until then, I would encourage everyone to at least speak to AeroMadrid, Eaglejet and Contractair....
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The Eaglejet and Contractair programs are completely stopped at the moment. If you are able to wait for at least one year then go ahead, but they are not going to guarantee you a date. It is not as easy as Arrowhead is telling
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Rowley UK:
I take it that the majority of us who ramble on this site are self-sponsored (whether it be integrated or modular), if we were airline sponsored (like the fortunate few!) then we wouldn't be waffling on about these topics. Hence, if you pay for your initial training I can not see any moral difference in paying for a SSTR or indeed an Instructors Rating.
Surely the flying schools have an obligation to pay for instructors ratings but they don't, just as many airlines don't pay for type ratings. You state that airlines frown upon those who have SSTR on their own a/c type... Ryanair run their own, Easyjet take CTC (who pay a proportion of the TR), Monarch take CTC, Thomsonfly ask for £10 000 to be repayed over 5 years (that's about half the cost), Channex have run a SSTR, FlyGlobespan have run a SSTR etc etc and many others take type rated low hour pilots.
Morally you are right Rowley, it does screw up T+Cs and salaries and yes it isn't right.. but the market is so competitive with new start ups going under within their first few years of trading, airlines have to economise in every department.
Your training captain friend said there are those who need to pay for jobs and those who don't.. let him answer this:
I had all the credentials in terms of groundschool exams, flying results, educational background, training school, age et. BA et al wouldn't give me an interview cos I graduated at the wrong time (ie: too long out of flight school), UK majors wouldn't touch me cos I didn't have 1500hrs, 500 jet BLAH BLAH BLAH, and the turboprop and piston guys want at least 7-800 hours BLAH BLAH
So I decided either SSTR or Instructor Rating so people would take me seriously.. and now they are starting to and I have not even completed my course. I sympathise for those who can not afford a SSTR.. the world isn't fair, but you can't just buy a SSTR or Instructor rating u still need to pass it.
Many people are getting jobs via SSTR so I do recommend it.. if U don't get a job.. well you were 30 000-75 000 in the red now it's another 20 000-30 000! You not losing anything else as you're already a gambler.
Congrats on getting your job Rowley, it would be nice to see more low hour guys getting direct jobs with no strings attached.. all the best to everyone else
74 Downwind
I take it that the majority of us who ramble on this site are self-sponsored (whether it be integrated or modular), if we were airline sponsored (like the fortunate few!) then we wouldn't be waffling on about these topics. Hence, if you pay for your initial training I can not see any moral difference in paying for a SSTR or indeed an Instructors Rating.
Surely the flying schools have an obligation to pay for instructors ratings but they don't, just as many airlines don't pay for type ratings. You state that airlines frown upon those who have SSTR on their own a/c type... Ryanair run their own, Easyjet take CTC (who pay a proportion of the TR), Monarch take CTC, Thomsonfly ask for £10 000 to be repayed over 5 years (that's about half the cost), Channex have run a SSTR, FlyGlobespan have run a SSTR etc etc and many others take type rated low hour pilots.
Morally you are right Rowley, it does screw up T+Cs and salaries and yes it isn't right.. but the market is so competitive with new start ups going under within their first few years of trading, airlines have to economise in every department.
Your training captain friend said there are those who need to pay for jobs and those who don't.. let him answer this:
I had all the credentials in terms of groundschool exams, flying results, educational background, training school, age et. BA et al wouldn't give me an interview cos I graduated at the wrong time (ie: too long out of flight school), UK majors wouldn't touch me cos I didn't have 1500hrs, 500 jet BLAH BLAH BLAH, and the turboprop and piston guys want at least 7-800 hours BLAH BLAH
So I decided either SSTR or Instructor Rating so people would take me seriously.. and now they are starting to and I have not even completed my course. I sympathise for those who can not afford a SSTR.. the world isn't fair, but you can't just buy a SSTR or Instructor rating u still need to pass it.
Many people are getting jobs via SSTR so I do recommend it.. if U don't get a job.. well you were 30 000-75 000 in the red now it's another 20 000-30 000! You not losing anything else as you're already a gambler.
Congrats on getting your job Rowley, it would be nice to see more low hour guys getting direct jobs with no strings attached.. all the best to everyone else
74 Downwind
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Tom24
Why dont you stand outside the Recruiting Officers front door, pull your pants down and take one up the arse that might help you get a job...or maybe go round the Training Captains house and wash his car or mow his lawn.....christ all mighty you sound desperate lad.....do you enclose a 50 pound gift voucher on your job application form...that might work....
1500TT on 152s or shepherding PPLs around in a PA28 really bears very little relation to programming the computer/managing the FCU to fly 70 tonnes in tightly-controlled airspace using minimum fuel/time
So guys, stop thinking all your single-crew light prop hours make you attractive. If you are deadly serious, and somewhat impatient, start thinking about the total economics of a type rating/line training followed by years of an FO salary. You will soon see that instructing or boring circles in the sky pays less/costs you more (net) over 3 years, and you may still never get you into the right seat of a jet.
If you have undertaken an SSTR then fair play, if you have done so and gotten a job then even better. Please remember that there are more ways to skin a cat though and whilst you may find instructing an unattractive route there are many of us who took it and actually enjoyed it even though we moaned (alot) at the time
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Why dont you stand outside the Recruiting Officers front door, pull your pants down and take one up the arse that might help you get a job