Paying for type-rating.
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Paying for type-rating.
I know its the way of the aviation world now for most companys to get their pilots to pay for their type-ratings.
How did this all come about in the first place????
Why dont people just refuse point blank to pay???
I dont know about other pilots,but as for me,I wont be able to afford a type-rating when I finish my training.
Airlines need pilots,right??? So if pilots refuse to pay then the airline cant opperate,right???
BALPA have predicted that a pilot shortage will occur within the next couple of years so are the airlines going to ask pilots for a fee???
It really angers me the pilots who agree to pay for their type-rating as the airlines have a taste for it now and will continue to do this.
Anyone else agree??
How did this all come about in the first place????
Why dont people just refuse point blank to pay???
I dont know about other pilots,but as for me,I wont be able to afford a type-rating when I finish my training.
Airlines need pilots,right??? So if pilots refuse to pay then the airline cant opperate,right???
BALPA have predicted that a pilot shortage will occur within the next couple of years so are the airlines going to ask pilots for a fee???
It really angers me the pilots who agree to pay for their type-rating as the airlines have a taste for it now and will continue to do this.
Anyone else agree??
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I have never paid for a type rating in my life and don't suggest than anyone else pay for one either.
The required training you have to go through as a new hire would be the same either way, so you are just pissing your money away
Cheers
Wino
The required training you have to go through as a new hire would be the same either way, so you are just pissing your money away
Cheers
Wino
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I think the idea of getting pilots to fund their own ratings is wrong also but I am sure that there are lots of pilots who paid the dollars and got the job from it and moved on without regrets. Airlines are just big corporations, training costs are high and pilots can be replaced easily enough as so many are out there fighting for that jet job. Many are so desperate to get into the industry that they pay for the rating on the bet that it will get them into a cockpit. I think it's a product of the new low cost mentality that all airlines are adopting. If they can save any money anywhere, they take it. I would describe it as bordering on exploitation of employees.
What if you are highly motivated and fit, have the basic quals and simply can not afford to fork out for the type rating? Potentially you have lost a lot of job prospects and I don't think that is fair.
Doesn't seem to stop pilots from parting with their money but like lots of other things in the industry, it's wrong and it's a trend that is going to be here for a long time to come.
What if you are highly motivated and fit, have the basic quals and simply can not afford to fork out for the type rating? Potentially you have lost a lot of job prospects and I don't think that is fair.
Doesn't seem to stop pilots from parting with their money but like lots of other things in the industry, it's wrong and it's a trend that is going to be here for a long time to come.
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BALPA have predicted that a pilot shortage will occur within the next couple of years so are the airlines going to ask pilots for a fee???
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Everyone wants to pay less when they go on holiday, I know because I do as well. How can an airline provide cheaper tickets without cutting cost in some areas of the business. Running cost are always on the increase and so is fuel especially with what is going on in the gulf at the moment.
Paying for your own type rating is the way forward for airlines, as long as safety is not compromised what's the problem. You chaps not willing to find the cash better be careful you don't get left behind and in 10 years time you are still on pprune whining how the world has done you wrong.
This is not meant personally to anyone and no offence was intended. Good luck in finding something.
Paying for your own type rating is the way forward for airlines, as long as safety is not compromised what's the problem. You chaps not willing to find the cash better be careful you don't get left behind and in 10 years time you are still on pprune whining how the world has done you wrong.
This is not meant personally to anyone and no offence was intended. Good luck in finding something.
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I agree with dmmd.
Well, just like any other industry, you prospects are related to your employablility. Your employablility is directly related to your experience and qualifications. The better they are the better your chance (unless you have another trick up your sleeve!!). If you have to invest in "further" training (just like you did with getting a CPL in the first place!) then so be it.
This may be so, but what if you were just completing now and having a type rating meant the difference between getting a job and not - would you invest?? No? Fine 'cos someone else has/will!
I don't advocate anyone running up a debt on what is effectively a huge gamble but if it were a business that you were running you might have to make similar sacrifices to be ahead of the competition! Being an employable pilot is no different - you make commercial decisions as you always have with your training and always will with your career! The airline market finds it's level. If there are, as some of you say, a large pool of pilots at their disposal thay can afford to be picky. Picky might mean having 10,000 hrs PIC or it could mean a type rating - picky is in the eye of the beholder.
I was told that many moons ago even paying for your own flight training was was a "taboo". In any case our industry has changed - and so should we. But, if you can avoid paying for a type rating then well done that man/woman!
df1
What if you are highly motivated and fit, have the basic quals and simply can not afford to fork out for the type rating? Potentially you have lost a lot of job prospects and I don't think that is fair.
I have never paid for a type rating in my life and don't suggest than anyone else pay for one either.
I don't advocate anyone running up a debt on what is effectively a huge gamble but if it were a business that you were running you might have to make similar sacrifices to be ahead of the competition! Being an employable pilot is no different - you make commercial decisions as you always have with your training and always will with your career! The airline market finds it's level. If there are, as some of you say, a large pool of pilots at their disposal thay can afford to be picky. Picky might mean having 10,000 hrs PIC or it could mean a type rating - picky is in the eye of the beholder.
I was told that many moons ago even paying for your own flight training was was a "taboo". In any case our industry has changed - and so should we. But, if you can avoid paying for a type rating then well done that man/woman!
df1
Last edited by df1; 16th Nov 2004 at 14:25.
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You can't help but see a certain sense in what the airlines are doing by passing the so called "training risk" back to the wannabee pilot. I often wonder whether the big dissenters here on pprune are those that either don't have the money, are trying to get off turbo props with thousands of hours or were priviledged enough to get all of their training paid for courtesy of HM/the taxpayer (ie: me). Anyway I am keeping an open mind for when the time comes that is for sure. I am not going to be one of those being left behind.
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I think he said "for a fee" not "for free"
It used to be that type ratings were financed with deductions from the paycheck...
I often ask myself where a new wannabee now-a-days gets the cash to pay for training or type ratings, unless they come from a rich family.
(no, I'm not a wannabee myself.... I just know the business for many years).
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DF1;
I think you hit the nail right on the head with your comments, I have not yet paid for a type rating, but I must admit that I would not hesitate to pay up front if it meant the difference between getting a job or not.
It is interesting to note that Southwest Airlines has, for as long as I have known, required it's new hires to get a 737 type as a pre-condition of employment. We all know that Southwest has never had a problem finding enough pilots.
It's a somewhat sad state of affairs, but it merely reflects the fact that there are more pilots out there than there are jobs, we simply have to do whatever is neccesary to make ourselves more marketable than our competition.
I think you hit the nail right on the head with your comments, I have not yet paid for a type rating, but I must admit that I would not hesitate to pay up front if it meant the difference between getting a job or not.
It is interesting to note that Southwest Airlines has, for as long as I have known, required it's new hires to get a 737 type as a pre-condition of employment. We all know that Southwest has never had a problem finding enough pilots.
It's a somewhat sad state of affairs, but it merely reflects the fact that there are more pilots out there than there are jobs, we simply have to do whatever is neccesary to make ourselves more marketable than our competition.
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Scraglad,
There is always a choice, namely 'take it or leave it'.
The aviation industry doesn't owe you a single damn thing, you say you're angry, oh bless you!
You say you can't afford a type rating, then perhaps you should go away for a few years, get a proper job, save up, buy a house then remortgage it, whatever you need to do to find the funds.
Once you've got those funds the career advancement it will give you will pay you back 15-fold over the course of your career.
Of course we'd all like the higher paid professions whilst someone else pays for the initial outlay but life ain't that perfect.
After 25 years in this industry I'm now comfortable but, by christ, I've been through some hard times. You want the best paid job, then make the required effort and stop whining.
There is always a choice, namely 'take it or leave it'.
The aviation industry doesn't owe you a single damn thing, you say you're angry, oh bless you!
You say you can't afford a type rating, then perhaps you should go away for a few years, get a proper job, save up, buy a house then remortgage it, whatever you need to do to find the funds.
Once you've got those funds the career advancement it will give you will pay you back 15-fold over the course of your career.
Of course we'd all like the higher paid professions whilst someone else pays for the initial outlay but life ain't that perfect.
After 25 years in this industry I'm now comfortable but, by christ, I've been through some hard times. You want the best paid job, then make the required effort and stop whining.
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Phileas fogg,
your 25 years in this industry and I bet my arms and legs you never paid for your initial training no mind your type-rating(s). And yes,it angers me that we do now have to pay for a type-rating,as ive said,airlines need pilots and with out us,they dont operate.
As for my job,its people like me that make it happen for you,im a ground worker at Dub airport.
So old boy,I suggest you hang up your hat and give us younger more enthuastic pilots a chance because by the sounds of you, you dont appreciate how easy you have had it.
your 25 years in this industry and I bet my arms and legs you never paid for your initial training no mind your type-rating(s). And yes,it angers me that we do now have to pay for a type-rating,as ive said,airlines need pilots and with out us,they dont operate.
As for my job,its people like me that make it happen for you,im a ground worker at Dub airport.
So old boy,I suggest you hang up your hat and give us younger more enthuastic pilots a chance because by the sounds of you, you dont appreciate how easy you have had it.
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scraglad:
I agree with you 100 percent. If EVERYONE had your attitude and refused to pay for a type rating then the airlines would have no choice but to foot the bill. But as you can see from the comments so far there are many who are willing to whore themselves out to pursue their chosen vocation. It is really sad, there is no reason we should ever have to pay for training beyond the ATPL.
Typhoonpilot
I agree with you 100 percent. If EVERYONE had your attitude and refused to pay for a type rating then the airlines would have no choice but to foot the bill. But as you can see from the comments so far there are many who are willing to whore themselves out to pursue their chosen vocation. It is really sad, there is no reason we should ever have to pay for training beyond the ATPL.
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Scraglad,
I never said I was a pilot!
What people need to realise is that it is the European Union now, if you suggest a 'call to arms' then it's going to take the whole EU to unite together, all they've done until now is fight with each other!
Furthermore, if the airlines can't source 'suitably qualified' pilots from within the EU then they may be able to justify bringing pilots in from outside the EU.
If you can't afford a type rating then you can't afford it thus you're likely to continue your arguments against but these are the facts of life, you don't want the type rating then there will always be a long queue that do.
You talk about the airlines needing 'us' (you) pilots, the airlines need commercial pilots. just because you may have an ATPL does not make you a commercial pilot, you need to get an 'in' first to be one of the so called 'us'!
I never said I was a pilot!
What people need to realise is that it is the European Union now, if you suggest a 'call to arms' then it's going to take the whole EU to unite together, all they've done until now is fight with each other!
Furthermore, if the airlines can't source 'suitably qualified' pilots from within the EU then they may be able to justify bringing pilots in from outside the EU.
If you can't afford a type rating then you can't afford it thus you're likely to continue your arguments against but these are the facts of life, you don't want the type rating then there will always be a long queue that do.
You talk about the airlines needing 'us' (you) pilots, the airlines need commercial pilots. just because you may have an ATPL does not make you a commercial pilot, you need to get an 'in' first to be one of the so called 'us'!
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How do you see paying for a type rating as being any different than paying for your ATPL's, Instrument rating, etc or simply NOT investing in your own future.
It's not an ideal situation where a pilot as to pay for a type rating and I for one, certainly don't want to do it but if it means the difference between a job and not having one, I take the job.
Forking out the money only furthers your career - at least if you have a conditional offer of employment I can't really understand those who go out and get a TR without any conditional offers, however I see no problem with those who are in a programme through the likes of Ryanair or Air Asia. How could you fault these people - they have the same passion as everyone else in the industry they are just fortunate to have access to the necessary funding.
Should paying for a TR have been the norm from the start there would not be an issue here. What if up until a few years ago carriers would pay for your ATPL studying or IR, would everyone here be of the mindset that we are "whoring" ourselves off by paying for these now?
Paying for TR adds to YOUR qualifications and resume not the airlines. It will help you in the future, not the airline. It will be an added benefit to you when you are leaving one company for another with a necessary TR. The whole thing comes full circle. As mentioned in a previous post here, by charging pilots for a TR allows for lower costs offered from the carrier to the end consumer.
I think, and understandably so, a lot of the resentment of paying for a type rating comes from those who are well qualified but do not have access to the money. Should this be the case then I agree 100% however if it is of the belief that we are "whoring" ourselves off - get real. By already paying an absorbant amount of money to get yourself to an ATPL level, how is it any different paying for a TR - other than the cost????
Don't get down on those willing to do whatever it takes to get a job - would it be any different in any other industry? Next thing you know people will be whining and winging about those who have contacts or know someone who knows someone in a carrier that can help them get a job - "wah wah wah, I don't know anyone and it's not fair b/c I have the qualifications and experience but someone less qualified than me got the job because he/she knows someone in the airline..."
It's not an ideal situation where a pilot as to pay for a type rating and I for one, certainly don't want to do it but if it means the difference between a job and not having one, I take the job.
Forking out the money only furthers your career - at least if you have a conditional offer of employment I can't really understand those who go out and get a TR without any conditional offers, however I see no problem with those who are in a programme through the likes of Ryanair or Air Asia. How could you fault these people - they have the same passion as everyone else in the industry they are just fortunate to have access to the necessary funding.
Should paying for a TR have been the norm from the start there would not be an issue here. What if up until a few years ago carriers would pay for your ATPL studying or IR, would everyone here be of the mindset that we are "whoring" ourselves off by paying for these now?
Paying for TR adds to YOUR qualifications and resume not the airlines. It will help you in the future, not the airline. It will be an added benefit to you when you are leaving one company for another with a necessary TR. The whole thing comes full circle. As mentioned in a previous post here, by charging pilots for a TR allows for lower costs offered from the carrier to the end consumer.
I think, and understandably so, a lot of the resentment of paying for a type rating comes from those who are well qualified but do not have access to the money. Should this be the case then I agree 100% however if it is of the belief that we are "whoring" ourselves off - get real. By already paying an absorbant amount of money to get yourself to an ATPL level, how is it any different paying for a TR - other than the cost????
Don't get down on those willing to do whatever it takes to get a job - would it be any different in any other industry? Next thing you know people will be whining and winging about those who have contacts or know someone who knows someone in a carrier that can help them get a job - "wah wah wah, I don't know anyone and it's not fair b/c I have the qualifications and experience but someone less qualified than me got the job because he/she knows someone in the airline..."
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typhoonpilot,
You use strong words! I think the term "whore themselves out" is quite inappropriate. I can see your frustrations though!
It's not fair for me to comment about what your financial situation may be suffice to say that funding your own type rating is extremely expensive (turbojet). You [we] do face a problem here though which is competition. Now, if like you say, pilots were able to club together and boycott the airlines by not type rating this may well have the effect of causing a shift in the prerequistes. Don't you think this is an extreme measure though? And how would it be administered? Just how, exactly, could we get an entire community - aready desperate to get their feet on the ladder - to agree not to out-do a fellow applicant by not paying for some additional "training". In fact, why not go one step further and everbody refuse to fund their CPL/ATPL training and get the airlines to do it properly from start to finish? The answer is it won't happen!
These are my thoughts and there is no ruling - for or against - paying for a type rating (or even buying the aircraft if you're really desperate/rich) in order to enhance your chances. What is for sure though is that airlines are experts at what they want and we have to accept this. If an airline is prepared to type-rate you they may even prefer that you don't have a rating on that type at all. On the other hand they may stipulate one as a prerequisite. What we see now is a case of newly qualified pilots investing in "further education" in order to enhance their chances.
Make sure you are not left behind. Don't get one if you don't need to. Do if you do!
df1
You use strong words! I think the term "whore themselves out" is quite inappropriate. I can see your frustrations though!
It's not fair for me to comment about what your financial situation may be suffice to say that funding your own type rating is extremely expensive (turbojet). You [we] do face a problem here though which is competition. Now, if like you say, pilots were able to club together and boycott the airlines by not type rating this may well have the effect of causing a shift in the prerequistes. Don't you think this is an extreme measure though? And how would it be administered? Just how, exactly, could we get an entire community - aready desperate to get their feet on the ladder - to agree not to out-do a fellow applicant by not paying for some additional "training". In fact, why not go one step further and everbody refuse to fund their CPL/ATPL training and get the airlines to do it properly from start to finish? The answer is it won't happen!
These are my thoughts and there is no ruling - for or against - paying for a type rating (or even buying the aircraft if you're really desperate/rich) in order to enhance your chances. What is for sure though is that airlines are experts at what they want and we have to accept this. If an airline is prepared to type-rate you they may even prefer that you don't have a rating on that type at all. On the other hand they may stipulate one as a prerequisite. What we see now is a case of newly qualified pilots investing in "further education" in order to enhance their chances.
Make sure you are not left behind. Don't get one if you don't need to. Do if you do!
df1
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If this world had to be the way we want it in terms of not paying for a TR etc, then we shouldnt have even started by paying for the pilot training in a beginning. Why on earth do you get scholarships on almost all degrees or careers if you are good and capable for so and there is no way of getting it on this profession ( unless military).
We started paying to get inside an airline since day one of our CPL course, whether you pay more or less, instructor course, hours in the US or a TR it comes out to be the same but only more or less money spent. Its the same as getting a degree in something and then getting a master on it, only that in this world and in these times unlike other careers WE have to pay for it. What im trying to say is that if we want airlines to pay for us for the TR we might as well want them to pay for our pilot training course too.
In some countries in Asia they recruit you when you finish school, after passing certain levels of profficiency in some subjects and prooving your will and capability of becoming a good learner, they then pay for your entire career from day1 until you are sitting on the right seat of their company( problem is you have to be national from their country). So why dont we fight for that?
To start to criticize anyone who has payed for their TR etc, better start by bringing up why should we pay for a pilot training career, Spend up to 45000 quid or more in a career, which I find that amount of money embarrasing, and you have done it, we have all done it, even the ones who are really capable and good in this, also paid for it. So what on earth is the difference of paying more for a TR , instructor license, hours in the US, or whatever if we agreed to enter in this unfair and uncertain cycle since we started paying.
The bottom end is we all want to get hired asap, fulfil our dream and forget about this struggle to get in.
Softbutter landings to all and the best of luck!
We started paying to get inside an airline since day one of our CPL course, whether you pay more or less, instructor course, hours in the US or a TR it comes out to be the same but only more or less money spent. Its the same as getting a degree in something and then getting a master on it, only that in this world and in these times unlike other careers WE have to pay for it. What im trying to say is that if we want airlines to pay for us for the TR we might as well want them to pay for our pilot training course too.
In some countries in Asia they recruit you when you finish school, after passing certain levels of profficiency in some subjects and prooving your will and capability of becoming a good learner, they then pay for your entire career from day1 until you are sitting on the right seat of their company( problem is you have to be national from their country). So why dont we fight for that?
To start to criticize anyone who has payed for their TR etc, better start by bringing up why should we pay for a pilot training career, Spend up to 45000 quid or more in a career, which I find that amount of money embarrasing, and you have done it, we have all done it, even the ones who are really capable and good in this, also paid for it. So what on earth is the difference of paying more for a TR , instructor license, hours in the US, or whatever if we agreed to enter in this unfair and uncertain cycle since we started paying.
The bottom end is we all want to get hired asap, fulfil our dream and forget about this struggle to get in.
Softbutter landings to all and the best of luck!
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I think there are two issues here.
First you get yourself qualified with an CPL/ATPL and then the hours/ experience. That is the same as any other profession.
However, in my experience the actual type rating becomes very specific to the idividual airline. An Airbus or 737 rating is fine and shows your commitment but that is all. You will still need to get an LPC/OPC from the airline you are joining. The airline is required to ensure the standard of their pilot training.
Where do you stop? If the airline has another aircraft type and you would like to transfer, are you going to pay for yet another rating? Do you go for a bigger aircraft - ATR - 737 - A321 - 767 - A330?
I have been fortunate not to have to pay for any of my type ratings but I do know the airline I work for made a small fortune from selling ratings with the faint whiff of a job offer at the end of the line - and then creamed off the top two or three that they wanted.
All went away £10,500 poorer but out of forty plus trainees three got a job. Given their previous experience (1 ex-mil and two turbo-prop captains) they would have probably got a job anyway.
Keep the money and build the hours as best you can.
Anne
First you get yourself qualified with an CPL/ATPL and then the hours/ experience. That is the same as any other profession.
However, in my experience the actual type rating becomes very specific to the idividual airline. An Airbus or 737 rating is fine and shows your commitment but that is all. You will still need to get an LPC/OPC from the airline you are joining. The airline is required to ensure the standard of their pilot training.
Where do you stop? If the airline has another aircraft type and you would like to transfer, are you going to pay for yet another rating? Do you go for a bigger aircraft - ATR - 737 - A321 - 767 - A330?
I have been fortunate not to have to pay for any of my type ratings but I do know the airline I work for made a small fortune from selling ratings with the faint whiff of a job offer at the end of the line - and then creamed off the top two or three that they wanted.
All went away £10,500 poorer but out of forty plus trainees three got a job. Given their previous experience (1 ex-mil and two turbo-prop captains) they would have probably got a job anyway.
Keep the money and build the hours as best you can.
Anne
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I agree Anne.
Another point to consider (sorry to state the obvious) is that although having a type rating, for all intents and purposes, is quite something on a C.V, having hours on type is quite another thing. But, this brings us back to what the airlines themselves require.
Personally, I think there are many things that an indivudual can do to promote their chances of employment. Having worked in a recruiment field myself I expect that a good many pilots (with or without type specific) would benefit from some good selection process knowledge (not to sound condescending).
As food for thought why not consider the merits of this thread as it could be just as promising but almost certainly cheaper than a type rating!!
df1
Another point to consider (sorry to state the obvious) is that although having a type rating, for all intents and purposes, is quite something on a C.V, having hours on type is quite another thing. But, this brings us back to what the airlines themselves require.
Personally, I think there are many things that an indivudual can do to promote their chances of employment. Having worked in a recruiment field myself I expect that a good many pilots (with or without type specific) would benefit from some good selection process knowledge (not to sound condescending).
As food for thought why not consider the merits of this thread as it could be just as promising but almost certainly cheaper than a type rating!!
df1