Airlines looking for pilots.
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What a strange collection of people Pilots would seem to be.
We have a huge number here busy telling us it's a cr@p job but the moment somebody who is not a pilot tells them the same thing they get very defensive and call them a "wanna be". A "wanna be" what? in a cr@p job?? you can't have it both ways!
Then we have the argument that their job is more important than anybody elses because they fly high up, risk their lives and are responsible for many more if something goes wrong. Is it really anymore dangerous than a coach driver driving across Europe- also with the lives of many passengers in his hands? In fact, I thought Aviation was the SAFEST form of transport, so Pilots are probably in a LESS risky position.
They then wll tell you it's difficult and that others wouldn't have the skill even given the chance......
I'm pretty sure that most could. I know what's involved and it ain't that difficult.
You are also not the only group of people who have to work difficult hours and go away from family for long periods.
The World is a tough old place to work for nearly everyone. Times have changed for us all, why should it be any different for a select group called Pilots?
Even with a possible increased requirement for Flight Crew in the next few years, Terms and Conditions are never going to be what they were in the Glory years, get used to it!
We have a huge number here busy telling us it's a cr@p job but the moment somebody who is not a pilot tells them the same thing they get very defensive and call them a "wanna be". A "wanna be" what? in a cr@p job?? you can't have it both ways!
Then we have the argument that their job is more important than anybody elses because they fly high up, risk their lives and are responsible for many more if something goes wrong. Is it really anymore dangerous than a coach driver driving across Europe- also with the lives of many passengers in his hands? In fact, I thought Aviation was the SAFEST form of transport, so Pilots are probably in a LESS risky position.
They then wll tell you it's difficult and that others wouldn't have the skill even given the chance......
But when you say that there are plenty of them who would make good pilots if they were given the chance - that seems to imply that "anyone" can be a pilot if some mystical chance was given!
You are also not the only group of people who have to work difficult hours and go away from family for long periods.
The World is a tough old place to work for nearly everyone. Times have changed for us all, why should it be any different for a select group called Pilots?
Even with a possible increased requirement for Flight Crew in the next few years, Terms and Conditions are never going to be what they were in the Glory years, get used to it!
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desert_knight,
What are you prattling on about?
Being a Pilot is all about professional standards, risk management and being remunerated appropriately.
Parallels with being a coach driver are spurious and not valid. I can assure you if I did not have my current excellent career as a Pilot, I would have most likely been a fund manager in the City or a barrister, not a "coach driver"
What are you prattling on about?
Being a Pilot is all about professional standards, risk management and being remunerated appropriately.
Parallels with being a coach driver are spurious and not valid. I can assure you if I did not have my current excellent career as a Pilot, I would have most likely been a fund manager in the City or a barrister, not a "coach driver"
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Being a Pilot is all about professional standards, risk management and being remunerated appropriately
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"The same applies to many jobs. The argument that Pilots are unique and should therefore be remunerated at a much higher level is also spurious."
It’s not what the underwriters of insurance think. The association stated, " Airline Pilots are given corporate asset responsibility to the extent that their actions and failings alone would bring down even the largest of listed companies"
Pretty conclusive, probably why I get paid as well as I does. Innit
It’s not what the underwriters of insurance think. The association stated, " Airline Pilots are given corporate asset responsibility to the extent that their actions and failings alone would bring down even the largest of listed companies"
Pretty conclusive, probably why I get paid as well as I does. Innit
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What amazes me is the number of pratts like Ms. desert_knight who seem to have nothing better to do than invade our professional forum and then criticize us!
I wonder if Lawyers, Architects etc have similar problems with frustrated wannabes?
I wonder if Lawyers, Architects etc have similar problems with frustrated wannabes?
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Christn
Usually I just quietly observe, on the whole no help is required in your "professional forum", you seem to manage more than enough critisism of others without any need for input from me.
I have been in aviation for the past 26 years and while often frustrated, I am not a wannabe anything.
If you wish to call me names, please use the correct title of Mr.
Dogma
Nice to hear you are happy with your lot, one of the few in this forum it would seem. 
Usually I just quietly observe, on the whole no help is required in your "professional forum", you seem to manage more than enough critisism of others without any need for input from me.
I have been in aviation for the past 26 years and while often frustrated, I am not a wannabe anything.
If you wish to call me names, please use the correct title of Mr.
Dogma
probably why I get paid as well as I does. Innit
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Gentlemen,
Please let this Desert_Knight say his peace. He assumes to know all there is about our profession, yet has never actually flown for an airline… so he will never know. We (those who actually fly for a living) all know what it took to get here and that we are in a brotherhood; with that knowledge comes certain ego. I have met many who say that it must be easy to become a “pilot.” It is… but we are “Professional Pilots” and there is a difference. Those who understand this statement need no additional clarification.
Desert_Knight, enjoy all things that you have earned… I know I do.
JLT
Please let this Desert_Knight say his peace. He assumes to know all there is about our profession, yet has never actually flown for an airline… so he will never know. We (those who actually fly for a living) all know what it took to get here and that we are in a brotherhood; with that knowledge comes certain ego. I have met many who say that it must be easy to become a “pilot.” It is… but we are “Professional Pilots” and there is a difference. Those who understand this statement need no additional clarification.
Desert_Knight, enjoy all things that you have earned… I know I do.
JLT
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As a PROFFESIONAL pilot, i do not think I am any more important than anyone else. BUT i am a proffesional!!! Mr Desert Knight, as you seem to have the ability to do my job, would you please enlighten me as to your JOB, so that I can tell you whether I could do your job aswell as you could do mine....go on, dont be scared, we are all friends here!
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desert_knight, I've been a pilot for 40 years, and I agree that we have too many whingers amongst our ranks. Having said that, there are many more that enjoy what they are doing, and seldom complain (at least, not in public). I think that many have unrealistic expectations about what the job entails when they start, and are then disappointed when they discover otherwise.
By the way, if you can find a coach that carries over 350 people, please let me know. Perhaps those who drive it also have 2 medicals, 16 hours in a simulator, and a line check every year. They may also have a few hours of first aid, technical refreshers, emergencies, CRM etc. but somehow I doubt it. If our jobs are comparable, why do we need a blood/alcohol limit 4 times lower than theirs?
The comment that "Airline Pilots are given corporate asset responsibility to the extent that their actions and failings alone would bring down even the largest of listed companies" says it all, I think. Perhaps if a few more company MDs realised this, and treated their pilots accordingly, there might be a few less whingers.
By the way, if you can find a coach that carries over 350 people, please let me know. Perhaps those who drive it also have 2 medicals, 16 hours in a simulator, and a line check every year. They may also have a few hours of first aid, technical refreshers, emergencies, CRM etc. but somehow I doubt it. If our jobs are comparable, why do we need a blood/alcohol limit 4 times lower than theirs?
The comment that "Airline Pilots are given corporate asset responsibility to the extent that their actions and failings alone would bring down even the largest of listed companies" says it all, I think. Perhaps if a few more company MDs realised this, and treated their pilots accordingly, there might be a few less whingers.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Thread Starter
I've seen a couple of sim techs hop into the sim & fly it "perfectly", inputting a set body angle and power setting and holding them, regardless of what the sim was doing at the time, so that it eventually reached the desired speed and attitude.
Nothing to it at all, and I guess that that is one of the secrets we pilots should be told as early on in our careers as possible - the "box" is NOT an aeroplane.
Having said that I wonder why more sim instructors and techs don't/can't make pilot?
Obviously there's nothing much to it, and the demand NOW is only going to get greater.]
C'mon all of you guys who tell us how easy it is - right now is YOUR chance to qualify as a glorified 'bus driver, and to score one of the many jobs on offer.
You're already streets ahead with your obvious ability, d_k, come on up and join us
Nothing to it at all, and I guess that that is one of the secrets we pilots should be told as early on in our careers as possible - the "box" is NOT an aeroplane.
Having said that I wonder why more sim instructors and techs don't/can't make pilot?
I know what's involved and it ain't that difficult.
C'mon all of you guys who tell us how easy it is - right now is YOUR chance to qualify as a glorified 'bus driver, and to score one of the many jobs on offer.
You're already streets ahead with your obvious ability, d_k, come on up and join us
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It's not pilots who need to be told the sim is not an aeroplane, Kap, it's the CC's doing the checking. For too long in my 41 years in aviation I watched simulators being used as "traps" instead of the high-tech learning-tool they were designed to be. This attitude was VERY prevalent in the military world, but I also found it to a slightly lesser degree in civilian life. Yes, I can fly a sim, very well as it happens, but there is no way I'd consider taking a big Boeing or Airbus aloft without the level of training I've seen Tech. Crews go through. I used to be able to fly Phantom/Harrier/Jaguar sims as well, but the idea of flying the aeroplane is laughable. They are training aids, nothing more, although very valuable tools when properly used.
I haven't read ALL the previous posts, but I'm here to tell you that ANYONE who believes that his experience as a Simtech qualifies him to the same degree as an ATPL pilot has his head up his fundamental orifice! What he/she will have is a better understanding of what is happening in a sim at any given time, since he/she will have been instrumental in programming the thing, but that knowledge does NOT translate automatically into manual skills in the air! Having said that, I must tell you that a question I was repeatedly asked by visitors was "would you manage to get the aircraft down if something happened to the pilots"? My answer was invariably "I'd have a better chance of a safe landing then you, since I know the aircraft systems better than you"!!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
I haven't read ALL the previous posts, but I'm here to tell you that ANYONE who believes that his experience as a Simtech qualifies him to the same degree as an ATPL pilot has his head up his fundamental orifice! What he/she will have is a better understanding of what is happening in a sim at any given time, since he/she will have been instrumental in programming the thing, but that knowledge does NOT translate automatically into manual skills in the air! Having said that, I must tell you that a question I was repeatedly asked by visitors was "would you manage to get the aircraft down if something happened to the pilots"? My answer was invariably "I'd have a better chance of a safe landing then you, since I know the aircraft systems better than you"!!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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Mr. Desert Knight......
If you have a look through the forum again, with a different eye, I think you'll find that there is indeed a lot of moaning, self-righteousness and useless drivvle coming from SOME users......
however, it would appear to be coming from the SAME users constantly - they just take up a lot more hard disk space than those who only speak when it's really necessary - like to offer advice or be constructive.......
And if they really p*ss you off - you can add them to your ignore list and they need never darken your desktop again!
....just a thought!
If you have a look through the forum again, with a different eye, I think you'll find that there is indeed a lot of moaning, self-righteousness and useless drivvle coming from SOME users......
however, it would appear to be coming from the SAME users constantly - they just take up a lot more hard disk space than those who only speak when it's really necessary - like to offer advice or be constructive.......
And if they really p*ss you off - you can add them to your ignore list and they need never darken your desktop again!
....just a thought!
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I got into a tiff with a management type on another board recently and finally explained the situation like this:
Pilots and bean-counters(and most other types, I'm coming to realize) will never understand each other. We come from a world where everything is constantly changing. No two flights are exactly the same--in fact, if you break each flight down to it's smallest detail, there are innumerable and often large differences between seemingly identical days.
The rest of the world spends its day making sure all the columns line up and all the boxes are checked. Day after day. Seemingly large and innumerable differences in the day-to-day job are actually non-existant.
The phrase "Same $hit, different day" wasn't coined by a pilot.
I doubt the non-pilots out there will ever REALLY understand us and I'm pretty sure, we'll never REALLY understand them.TC
P.S.--re: the button pushing issue. I always hand fly my approaches whether it's a 767, 717 or, now, a GV. And, I usually turn the FD off outside the marker. So there!
Pilots and bean-counters(and most other types, I'm coming to realize) will never understand each other. We come from a world where everything is constantly changing. No two flights are exactly the same--in fact, if you break each flight down to it's smallest detail, there are innumerable and often large differences between seemingly identical days.
The rest of the world spends its day making sure all the columns line up and all the boxes are checked. Day after day. Seemingly large and innumerable differences in the day-to-day job are actually non-existant.
The phrase "Same $hit, different day" wasn't coined by a pilot.
I doubt the non-pilots out there will ever REALLY understand us and I'm pretty sure, we'll never REALLY understand them.TC
P.S.--re: the button pushing issue. I always hand fly my approaches whether it's a 767, 717 or, now, a GV. And, I usually turn the FD off outside the marker. So there!
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for your kind words of encouragement to become Flight Crew, however, I love my job, the diversity and challenge it offers me and I have no desire to become a Pilot. This might come as a shock to some members of this Forum who seem to believe there are only two types who log on, Pilots or Wannabes. Two of my former colleagues did decide to take the Flight Crew path and are doing just fine.
Todays modern Full Flight Simulator has no doubt taken many of you from one aircraft type to the next without the need for training on the actual aeroplane before revenue flight. They are known as 'zero flight time' and have been qualified by the FAA/CAA as capable of doing so. Boeing and Airbus spend many, many hours and millions of dollars to collect the data and design the models that make such fidelity possible. The main area it lacks real world fidelity is the motion systems ability to simulate sustained G. These devices are a far cry from the type you refer to TheNight Owl.
Does being able to fly the Simulator make me a qualified Pilot? Of course not, flying is just one small part of the job.
Do I believe I would be able to fly and land a B777, A330 or similar type (either manually or with automatics)? Absolutely I do!
Can I program the FMS/FMGEC? Yes
Can I follow ECAM/EICAS or QRH actions? Yes
Can I follow Flt. Directors, PFD ILS information, VLAs? Yes
As a Simulator Engineer the above is a prerequisite of the job, how else can we verify Training Crew write ups?
In fact, many of the write ups we receive actually stem from the Flight Crews misunderstanding of how the Aircraft Systems will behave in certain situations. This is not a critisism of the Flight crew, modern aircraft are extremely complex.
Do I believe that JJ737 can do my job? Of course, after training for a couple of years he should be a productive junior member of the team.
Anyway, this is way off topic so I better shut up!
Good luck to one and all in finding positions with the Airline of your choice....but once there, do not come back on here and moan about how tough it is and how much your are underpaid!
Thank you for your kind words of encouragement to become Flight Crew, however, I love my job, the diversity and challenge it offers me and I have no desire to become a Pilot. This might come as a shock to some members of this Forum who seem to believe there are only two types who log on, Pilots or Wannabes. Two of my former colleagues did decide to take the Flight Crew path and are doing just fine.
Todays modern Full Flight Simulator has no doubt taken many of you from one aircraft type to the next without the need for training on the actual aeroplane before revenue flight. They are known as 'zero flight time' and have been qualified by the FAA/CAA as capable of doing so. Boeing and Airbus spend many, many hours and millions of dollars to collect the data and design the models that make such fidelity possible. The main area it lacks real world fidelity is the motion systems ability to simulate sustained G. These devices are a far cry from the type you refer to TheNight Owl.
Does being able to fly the Simulator make me a qualified Pilot? Of course not, flying is just one small part of the job.
Do I believe I would be able to fly and land a B777, A330 or similar type (either manually or with automatics)? Absolutely I do!
Can I program the FMS/FMGEC? Yes
Can I follow ECAM/EICAS or QRH actions? Yes
Can I follow Flt. Directors, PFD ILS information, VLAs? Yes
As a Simulator Engineer the above is a prerequisite of the job, how else can we verify Training Crew write ups?
In fact, many of the write ups we receive actually stem from the Flight Crews misunderstanding of how the Aircraft Systems will behave in certain situations. This is not a critisism of the Flight crew, modern aircraft are extremely complex.
Do I believe that JJ737 can do my job? Of course, after training for a couple of years he should be a productive junior member of the team.
Anyway, this is way off topic so I better shut up!
Good luck to one and all in finding positions with the Airline of your choice....but once there, do not come back on here and moan about how tough it is and how much your are underpaid!
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Fair enough.
But, with training now costing £60 000+ to land a job in the right hand seat of a jet. We have every right to strive to achieve the best return on our investment.
P.S Nothing replicates the smell of fear of being out there on the darkest of dirty nights with very limited options!
But, with training now costing £60 000+ to land a job in the right hand seat of a jet. We have every right to strive to achieve the best return on our investment.
P.S Nothing replicates the smell of fear of being out there on the darkest of dirty nights with very limited options!
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Desert_Knight…
Have you even flown an aircraft where your life was REALLY at risk? It throws some unexpected variables into the equation (human reaction/interaction only one small aspect of.) The box can only produce the outcomes it is programmed to albeit fairly comprehensive thanks to yourself and others; I can not however say the same for the actual aircraft… ie: unforeseen structural changes in a fluid environment aka catastrophic systemic damage. The desired reaction to which comes after many years of command experience in actual aircraft… not a machine safely situated on terra firma.
You can always walk out of the box.
JLT
Have you even flown an aircraft where your life was REALLY at risk? It throws some unexpected variables into the equation (human reaction/interaction only one small aspect of.) The box can only produce the outcomes it is programmed to albeit fairly comprehensive thanks to yourself and others; I can not however say the same for the actual aircraft… ie: unforeseen structural changes in a fluid environment aka catastrophic systemic damage. The desired reaction to which comes after many years of command experience in actual aircraft… not a machine safely situated on terra firma.
You can always walk out of the box.
JLT