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Airlines looking for pilots.

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Old 27th Aug 2004, 21:20
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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A bit of thread creep here, ladies and gentlemen. Topic is airlines looking for pilots!
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Old 28th Aug 2004, 00:20
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At risk of incurring the wrath of those opposed to thread creep, may I indulge myself a little longer in order to reply to desert-knight's arrogance.
I have to agree with the bulk of your post, and add that, just as you cannot fully understand the ramifications of all that happens in the air, no pilot fully understands the complexity of the modern FFS. The point surely is that NEITHER of you NEEDS complete understanding of the other's occupation in order to carry out your own. I loved what I did, and had no desire to be a full-time pilot, all the flying I wish to do is to get me from A to B, safely, on the rare occasion that I wish to travel.
What I find arrogant about your post is your dismissal of my experience in your comment "...these devices are a far cry from the type you refer to". Apart from my RAF experience on Phantom/Harrier/Jaguar, since I came to Oz I have been trained and employed on the following FFSs: B727/B737/B767/A320/BAe146/SAAB340/METRO and CRJ, hardly worthy of your dismissive tones! I, like yourself, am experienced in the rectification of FFS, and also, as a Shift Controller, had responsibility for the running of Fidelity Checks as well as the interpretation of the results.
No pilot could step in and do your job, in all truth I can't imagine any pilot even attempting it! On the other side of the same coin, I do NOT believe that your experience in simulation has fitted you for a job as a pilot, there is a world of difference in being at FL410 when the world turns to s**t, and being in a simulator with the knowledge that all you have to do is press the "T/O RESET" button and all is well again, with NO threat to yourself or passengers reliant on your skills. BULL****, my friend - stay where you are and enjoy what you do.
The argument about whether pilots' work is tough, and whether they are underpaid is better left to those really in the know!

Edited for spelling!!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.
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Old 28th Aug 2004, 02:28
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Gentlemen,

Once again, I am confused.
I can not however say the same for the actual aircraft… ie: unforeseen structural changes in a fluid environment aka catastrophic systemic damage. The desired reaction to which comes after many years of command experience in actual aircraft… not a machine safely situated on terra firma.
How many in this forum assume that they would also be able to cope in such conditions and based on what??

Training in a Simulator!

I suspect that the number of Pilots in this forum who have encountered an engine fialure or any other life threatening event in an aircraft could be counted on one hand.

You all assume you will cope based on the training and practise carried out in the 'box'. Sometimes people will, sometimes they will not - for example the east Midlands accident.

TheNight Owl,
I wasn't being dismissive of your experience, merely pointing out that the older military Simulators you metioned do not compare to more recent civil simulators and were never designed to do the same type of training - I also worked on them!
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Old 28th Aug 2004, 08:24
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desert knight, you hero - pull your head in. There is no way you are gonna convince pilots with your view of things, and you are obviously carrying the burden of a big chip on your shoulder...
- so bugger off and go fix a sim like you are supposed to

And before you use the age old and worn out unproffessionalism angle, let me say I am just sick of the drivel.

Lets get back to the thread

(not edited for spelling!!)

Dixon has spoken
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Old 28th Aug 2004, 15:31
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Desert Knight

"I suspect that the number of Pilots in this forum who have encountered an engine fialure or any other life threatening event in an aircraft could be counted on one hand."

I've had three situations leading to an engine shutdown (on two-engine aircraft). Perhaps the cobbler should stick to his last.
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Old 28th Aug 2004, 15:51
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desert_knight:

Once again, you are losing sight of the point. Please re-read my words which you found so convenient to quote, yet not comprehend. The term “unforeseen structural changes” means just that… unforeseen, hence an aerodynamic reaction is not accounted for by the engineer/programmer. We are not discussing simple issues of engine failure or similar problems. Any pilot worth his salt can handle that issue with little concern for the outcome. (And please refrain from quoting me out of context, thank you in advance.) There are a number of changes that can occur which will alter the handling of the aircraft in a way which no engineer/programmer can forecast with the intent to reproduce (ie: non-contained explosive engine failures resulting in additional aerodynamic damages.)

Non pilots all think alike… engine failure is the worst possible scenario. I regret to inform you but there are far worse things that can go wrong. As for the training (specifically “the box”) it does indeed have its place, a very important one. However, the point you missed is that command experience in REAL aircraft, with consequences for your actions (ie: death) places an altogether new variable in the equation; one which can never be produced in a simulator. Debate this as long as you wish, but until you do it for a living you will never fully comprehend the previous statement.

As for your created statistic of a handful of pilots… be careful – there are a lot of very, very experienced pilots on this board who have seen a lot more than you know. I myself have had 3 of the previously discussed “issues” at various points in my career. How many fingers on your hand are left now?
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Old 28th Aug 2004, 16:43
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OK, OK I stand corrected!

I am off back to the Simulator to stare in awe and wonder at this group called Pilots and the feats that only they can perform in a cockpit.

Come to think about it, I better get some Staff Travel in quickly as to replace such people will clearly not be possible and airline travel will soon be a thing of the past.

Now back to the thread topic - AIRLINES LOOKING FOR PILOTS

END

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Old 28th Aug 2004, 20:39
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D_K

END???

Not likely...... Read the book Fate Is The Hunter by E Gann. Then you may have, just a concept of what is involved.

I have never felt like calling for my Mother in a "simulator", I wish I could say the same about my years flying the Heavy Metal itself.
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 05:20
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Page 5 was interesting

I never knew that our simulators could simulate many other planes in the sky, numerous blocked radio calls from Tower/Departure/Enroute/Approach controllers, or have unpredictable (non-programmed) weather.

How about systems malfunctions which don't fit into any pre-labeled category? A sudden light on for "rudder control manual" with a right hydr pressure low light, then two seconds later all normal, as we do the Descent Checklist with calls from ATC to slow to 250? How about the stretched aircraft series, which wants to mush through the "flair", even with 5-8 knots of extra approach speed? Gusting, unpredictable winds? Winds which are actually from the opposite direction than what was just now reported by the fancy new automated airport devices (that caught SAT Tower off-guard: "change active to 30L...")? Unforecast thunderstorms blossoming quickly while we have no fuel for an alternate airport.

These are just a few simulator features which are brand new to me, never mind some pressure to try to be on schedule for the fifth short leg in a 12-hour duty period with heavy traffic over Michigan, following eight hours in a hotel. Airlines aren't as concerned about adequate ground staffing to avoid a delay-but they do need a scapegoat (the pilots are often written up, if it is plausible). As always, no automation onboard, except to hold altitude (cruise speed about 440 KTAS/.76m). For the B-757 crew over northwest Canada at about 0200 in the depths ofwinter, they smelled something burning (didn't know it was in the galley oven). Where do you divert to?

Our only substitute is years of experience "flying the line". Not Microsoft, not even 100 hours with a Line Check Airman and FMC/MCP/LNAV/VNAV/autothrottles nor with an ECAM, MCDU and short "joystick", or met forecast/clearway design theory...

Last edited by Ignition Override; 30th Aug 2004 at 05:34.
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 06:51
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Perhaps you might like to ask how well the simulator training prepared the crew of the Sioux City DC-10 for their "real world" excursion Mr Knight? A failure not even contemplated by the designers or airworthiness authorities. Human resourcefulness, and plain experience can sometimes not be measured by a machine. Each side of the argument has validity. Can you land a 747 or 777? Maybe. But to simply assume you can replace someone experienced when the machine and conditions are at their worst? I think not. Especially when it is your own life in question.
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 10:31
  #91 (permalink)  
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You may also find a need to communicate simultaneously with F/O, F/E, fire service, cabin crew, ATC and passengers more than a little distracting during an emergency!
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 13:24
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Gentlemen,

You force me to keep this thread off topic for a little longer!

But to simply assume you can replace someone experienced when the machine and conditions are at their worst? I think not. Especially when it is your own life in question.
I never claimed to be able to do any such thing! I merly asserted that I felt I would be able to fly and land a transport aircraft - something I stand by.

There are those on this board with many years of experience that also would fail this test 'when the machine and conditions are at their worst' if called upon - many aircraft accidents (Kegworth for example) are testament to the fact that none of us will know how we will cope when in a given situation.

Ignition Override,

These are just a few simulator features which are brand new to me
Most of those are not at all difficult to simulate, we already have many of them available.
TCAS scenarios of different types available, conflicting traffic, runway incursions.
Weather can be made to do whatever the instructor wants at any time.
Windshears, microbursts, gusting winds - all available.
etc, etc.

Dogma,


I have never felt like calling for my Mother in a "simulator", I wish I could say the same about my years flying the Heavy Metal itself
Your fear of flying seems somewhat irrational, you are statistically far more likely to come to harm driving to the airport! Your skill as a pilot, combined with those who support you to get in the air, should keep you from serious harm.
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 15:48
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"Your fear of flying seems somewhat irrational, you are statistically far more likely to come to harm driving to the airport! Your skill as a pilot, combined with those who support you to get in the air, should keep you from serious harm."
My dear fellow, there in lays the problem! Your lack of appreciation of the "real world" issues that pilots have to deal with on a daily basis is astounding.

"Can I program the FMS/FMGEC? Yes
Can I follow ECAM/EICAS or QRH actions? Yes
Can I follow Flt. Directors, PFD ILS information, VLAs? Yes"


At first I though you were having a bit of a laugh, but.....no. I can assure you, being a one trick pony who can fly the sim does not equate to; daily flying "the line" into some of the worlds most demanding airfields!


They don't pay me 100k+ p.a for nothing! If you had worked a little harder at school you could be too.
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 17:09
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Dogma

If you hadn't been such a clever,hard worker at school,you might have ended up like 2 friends of mine who both left school with only 2 'o'levels each................running their own Company and retired before 40,earning CONSIDERABLY more than your £100k a year.One of them spends that annually on holidays alone,so grow up and don't be such a pompous
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 17:14
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LOOKS like good news for me who is going to do Intergrated ATPL in a year's time.......




!!!!!
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 17:43
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BYMONEK,

The comment was for D_K's benefit. But, congrats to your two mates, being an entrepreneur is tough! Mind you given my st "O Levels" maybe I should have given my own business a try!
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Old 31st Aug 2004, 02:16
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Dogma, a comment just for me? I didn't know you cared

Anyway, if I had worked a little harder at school I would have been an airline beancounter
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Old 31st Aug 2004, 08:44
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Gentlemen and others,

I have been monitoring this thread for some time now genuinely interested in the original topic - unfortunately I appear to have been wasting my time.

Can anyone out there throw some light on the latest employment opportunities and steer this thread back on its original course and away from this total bo**ox

MD
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Old 19th Dec 2004, 09:00
  #99 (permalink)  
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Thumbs up

These are from the website of just one of the recruiting agencies.

Funny how we keep hearing there's an "oversupply" of pilots

16/12/2004 L10-11 Captains
2 Months Mid East
16/12/2004 Saab2000 Crews
3 months Stockholm
16/12/2004 BAe-146 First Officer...
12 Months Europe
15/12/2004 B737e Captains
6 Months UK
15/12/2004 B737e First Officers
6 Months UK
15/12/2004 A320 Type Rating Examiner...
3 Years (Renewable) Vietnam
15/12/2004 A320 Captains
2 Years Renewable Asia
15/12/2004 A330 Captains
2 Years (Renewable) Asia
10/12/2004 B747 Type Rating / First ...
1 year with possible exte... Europe
9/12/2004 A300B4 Crews
4 months Taiwan & Philippines
9/12/2004 B747 Classic First Office...
3 1/2 years San Francisco / New York ...
9/12/2004 Dash 8-Q400 First Officer...
3 1/2 Years Japan
9/12/2004 Dash 8-Q400 Captains - Ra...
3 1/2 Years Japan
7/12/2004 B767 First Officers
10 Months Vietnam
3/12/2004 B737e / B737NG Sim Instru...
Ad Hoc UK
3/12/2004 B767 Captains
2 Years (Renewable) Asia
3/12/2004 A300-600 / A310 Captains...
1 Year UAE / Sri Lanka
3/12/2004 A300-600/A310 First Offic...
1 Year United Arab Emirates / Sr...
3/12/2004 A320 Captains
1 year, with possible per... Asia
29/11/2004 B747-200 SFI
5 months approx. Europe
29/11/2004 B737e/NG First Officers,...
6 Months (renewable) Marrakech & Agadir
29/11/2004 B737e/NG Captains for Roy...
6 Months (Renewable) Marrakech & Agadir
22/11/2004 A300-B4 Crews
4 months Asia
18/11/2004 Bae Jetstream-31 Captains...
6 Months Europe
18/11/2004 Bae Jetstream-31 First Of...
6 months Europe
12/11/2004 B737-400 Captains
3 years (Renewable) Japan
21/10/2004 A320 First Officers, Viet...
3 Years Vietnam
22/9/2004 B767 Rated / Non-Rated Fi...
5 Years Tokyo, Japan
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Old 19th Dec 2004, 11:17
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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We have a huge number here busy telling us it's a cr@p job but the moment somebody who is not a pilot tells them the same thing they get very defensive and call them a "wanna be". A "wanna be" what? in a cr@p job?? you can't have it both ways!

Hey it's the same for EVERY job! the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side!

Just reading the mess that was on FFS and flying...

Here's a briefer... applies to probably >99% (wild guess) of abnormals in real life.

1. If you can't do it in the FFS, U won't be able to do it in real flight.
2. If you can do it in the FFS, U might still not be able to do it in real life...

Desert Knight,

Try this...
Climb out on prop in foreign airspace with no more than US$40 amongst the 4 of you on board because someone screwed up the funds transfer. You're cleared to climb with a descending jet on a collision course but there's no way of knowing since you nor the jet is TCAS equipped, and you got an ATC calling altitude checks every 30 seconds when suddenly someone at the back saw your tank cap flew off... you have 30 seconds to do the following:
1. stop climb without spewing the fuel out.
2. make an emergency call
3. get a visual on the descending jet.
4. ensure ATC gets the message and stops the other jet's descend, if not repeat.

why 30 seconds? Well, 30 seconds after the first alarm, the jet appeared 1000ft above me <3NM... had he continued descent, his wake would have killed us or spewed all the fuel out... excessive imbalance danger.

Then, spend the next 5 minutes explaining to the ATC delicately that you request to return to your departing airfield due to your emergency despite the fact that there are nearer airport with better facility... Yet landing at those airports would have costed >40USD, and no money to buy additional fuel!

Now, can the simulator train you for this?
Can the simulator train your ear to hear cracking noises of a fatigued wing spar?
Can it simulate the fear of death? Well, maybe if you have a requirement of making zero errors (even the irrelevant ones) otherwise you'd be permanently banned from flying anywhere in the world, then it could come close

Sure, I've had serious fun on the simulator, even doing loss of both hydraulic systems one by one, then engine fire... on the 732 with the old MCP... I probably went through most of the abnormal procs with flying colours... BUT....

I to this day dare not say I can land the 732... the most I'll come to is that it's worth the shot if there is no other choice... However, if *God forbids* U or me ever get into the situation... just pray the aircraft is in tact, A/P still on, NAVs have just been recently calibrated, Autoapproach capability(autoland better ), auto throttle present and working, GOOD WEATHER, and can still remember the right prayers ! :P U know why? U'll need it no matter how many hrs on the FFS U have...

Now I think the right attitude for you would be like NightOwl said... I'd have a better chance of a safe landing then you, since I know the aircraft systems better than you... No MORE...

Are pilots overpaid button pushers? Well, buttons can fail... even if pilots are button pushers, they make their money by knowing what to do when those buttons fail

Now airlines looking for pilots? Try the new (and old) 320 operators out of Singapore... and oh yeah, "the usual middle eastern airlines" like Emirates, Etihad, Qatar... but timing's crucial...
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