Having to pay for Type Ratings as well!
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Having to pay for Type Ratings as well!
Can any one help me out on this.
I am a very recent graduate of Oxford Aviations Training`s excellent Airline Preparation Programme (APP) with first time passes in everything.
Now that i am back home driving a van for £75 a day whilst going through the very sole destroying and frustrating ritual of sending out my CV with the bearest minimum 220 hours on it and getting absolutly no responses what so ever, something has finally dawned upon me.
If i stand even the slightest chance of ever actually using this licence that has alreay cost me over £70,000 to obtain i am going to have to spend a further £15 - £20,000 on a type rating.
With my £650+ a month repayments for the next 11 years of my life to fund the loan on my course and all the other mandatory living expenses i just can not afford this or will be able to find any one to loan it to me.
What i could do with some feedback on is this please.
* It is now `industry norm` to have to come up with this additional sum of money as every airline i have contacted that may consider employing low hour pilots expect me to find it
* Are people considering becoming a pilot including it into any financial planning and budgeting before starting down this route
* Where are the guys who are getting these type ratings finding the money from.
Eventhough i have a nice new shiny Frozen ATPL i feel as though i am effectivly still only two thirds of the way there and without the extra money it is effectivly useless!
Any comments would be most welcome.
I am a very recent graduate of Oxford Aviations Training`s excellent Airline Preparation Programme (APP) with first time passes in everything.
Now that i am back home driving a van for £75 a day whilst going through the very sole destroying and frustrating ritual of sending out my CV with the bearest minimum 220 hours on it and getting absolutly no responses what so ever, something has finally dawned upon me.
If i stand even the slightest chance of ever actually using this licence that has alreay cost me over £70,000 to obtain i am going to have to spend a further £15 - £20,000 on a type rating.
With my £650+ a month repayments for the next 11 years of my life to fund the loan on my course and all the other mandatory living expenses i just can not afford this or will be able to find any one to loan it to me.
What i could do with some feedback on is this please.
* It is now `industry norm` to have to come up with this additional sum of money as every airline i have contacted that may consider employing low hour pilots expect me to find it
* Are people considering becoming a pilot including it into any financial planning and budgeting before starting down this route
* Where are the guys who are getting these type ratings finding the money from.
Eventhough i have a nice new shiny Frozen ATPL i feel as though i am effectivly still only two thirds of the way there and without the extra money it is effectivly useless!
Any comments would be most welcome.
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The "industry norm" as you put it is called "experience" which can not be accumulated by driving a truck. The best course of action in your case is to keep flying, even if it's only parttime, maybe by getting your instructors rating and teaching at a flight school if you can't get into the right seat of a small twin flying night freight. Because to fly PIC for hire in a small single engine airplane like a Cessna Caravan, most companies have insurance agreements that require you to have at least 1000 hours flying experience. 
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Mate, although money is tight (it is for everyone upon finishing and repayments starting) driving a van isn't exactly putting you in the networking environment.
I'm not sure where you live, but a major airport can't be that far away, get down there and get networking.
I know for a fact that there are plenty of jobs going at Manchester with a certain ground handling agent (presume elsewhere also).
Remember if its on PPjn, In flight and to an extent on pprune its often too late. Get the info from the horses mouth, and put a face to that CV.
Also have you tried CTC's ATP scheme?? I would before i spent £20000+ on a SSTR. Having said that i gather courses are booked into October now and that you wouldn't get a selection phase 2 until the new year. (Thats if you fit the requirements at phase1).
Flight Instructing???, I spoke to influential people about this option. It depends who you want to fly for. I know the ones i initially aimed my CV's at didn't see any relevance to having 1000hrs sep, to flying a jet. The old route of Instructor-Turboprop-Jet is generally dead for the majority unfortunately.
However, others such as Flybe and BACX still have a small preference for them.
Whatever you do buddy you knew it wasn't going to be easy getting a job, unless you believed your APP marketing Bu*****t. Getting the shiny licence is only a small part of getting a job.
The hard work starts now.
Just my T & C's
I'm not sure where you live, but a major airport can't be that far away, get down there and get networking.
I know for a fact that there are plenty of jobs going at Manchester with a certain ground handling agent (presume elsewhere also).
Remember if its on PPjn, In flight and to an extent on pprune its often too late. Get the info from the horses mouth, and put a face to that CV.
Also have you tried CTC's ATP scheme?? I would before i spent £20000+ on a SSTR. Having said that i gather courses are booked into October now and that you wouldn't get a selection phase 2 until the new year. (Thats if you fit the requirements at phase1).
Flight Instructing???, I spoke to influential people about this option. It depends who you want to fly for. I know the ones i initially aimed my CV's at didn't see any relevance to having 1000hrs sep, to flying a jet. The old route of Instructor-Turboprop-Jet is generally dead for the majority unfortunately.
However, others such as Flybe and BACX still have a small preference for them.
Whatever you do buddy you knew it wasn't going to be easy getting a job, unless you believed your APP marketing Bu*****t. Getting the shiny licence is only a small part of getting a job.
The hard work starts now.
Just my T & C's
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hose,
70K would get you a nice modular course AND a type rating.
What is so 'excellent' about this APP? The marketing bla bla I guess.
Two thirds? That far?
70K would get you a nice modular course AND a type rating.
What is so 'excellent' about this APP? The marketing bla bla I guess.
Even though i have a nice new shiny Frozen ATPL i feel as though i am effectivly still only two thirds of the way there
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Chin up hose,
Joe and glueball have almost said it all.
All I would add.... is that a type with no time is worth diddley.
So dont get suckered into that one.
Good luck and know you are not alone!
Joe and glueball have almost said it all.
All I would add.... is that a type with no time is worth diddley.
So dont get suckered into that one.
Good luck and know you are not alone!
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OK. Thanks for your replies but I have heard it all before.
I know the bit about doing an Instructors Licence.
I also know about staying current.
These things cost money, and the problem I raise is about cash flow. Thats all.
An instructors rating costs money and results in being paid peanuts. Staying current also costs good money.
I know the thing about getting some two-bob-job at an airport in the hope of getting to know a fairy godmother. But this pays fewer peanuts than the Instructors job.
The point is that I now have to start paying back my loan and have no chance of getting more money to pay for any more training. The main priority is earning money to pay off the loan in the knowledge that I can't stay current and so will most likely never get a job.
I'm not being negative, just realistic. Call me naive, but most people are like me and thought that the ATPL was an investment that would see us getting good employment. I now see that most of us will only have an 11 year debt to show for our hard work.
When I started on this route I never had any intention of being an Instructor or a baggage handler. I have no intention of doing it now. The good thing for me is I have another good job to fall back on. But looking at most of the people I was with on my course, about 90% had the loan, they have nothing to fall back on and can join the back of the line for jobs.
I bought into the dream, but will be left with a nighmare.
I am interested in views about the huge amount of money this is costing on top of normal living costs etc. This situation has only come about in the last couple of years.
I am respectful of all views but i heard a quote from a guy who runs at top training provider that there was about 2000+ low hour guys and girls waiting for there first break!
My view now is that people are being taken in by a con.
I know the bit about doing an Instructors Licence.
I also know about staying current.
These things cost money, and the problem I raise is about cash flow. Thats all.
An instructors rating costs money and results in being paid peanuts. Staying current also costs good money.
I know the thing about getting some two-bob-job at an airport in the hope of getting to know a fairy godmother. But this pays fewer peanuts than the Instructors job.
The point is that I now have to start paying back my loan and have no chance of getting more money to pay for any more training. The main priority is earning money to pay off the loan in the knowledge that I can't stay current and so will most likely never get a job.
I'm not being negative, just realistic. Call me naive, but most people are like me and thought that the ATPL was an investment that would see us getting good employment. I now see that most of us will only have an 11 year debt to show for our hard work.
When I started on this route I never had any intention of being an Instructor or a baggage handler. I have no intention of doing it now. The good thing for me is I have another good job to fall back on. But looking at most of the people I was with on my course, about 90% had the loan, they have nothing to fall back on and can join the back of the line for jobs.
I bought into the dream, but will be left with a nighmare.
I am interested in views about the huge amount of money this is costing on top of normal living costs etc. This situation has only come about in the last couple of years.
I am respectful of all views but i heard a quote from a guy who runs at top training provider that there was about 2000+ low hour guys and girls waiting for there first break!
My view now is that people are being taken in by a con.
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Hello Hose
Well done for passing everything, I think your route to success may have been a bit pricey but different strokes for different folks and you’ve now got your licence so that’s what matters.
I totally disagree, but that’s another thread!
If you can afford to do one then it would be an advantage for fairly obvious reasons but don’t put yourself out on the street. I don’t think it will become 'industry norm', only while supply outstrips demand. As for money, you ether borrow it off the bank or borrow through the airline (Ryanair, EasyJet, BMI Baby, etc.) if you can get on to their schemes (Lots of PROs and CONs!!!
) Have you applied to any? I know of a few who have got in.
I think age plays a part. If your getting on, then instructing may be the way to quickly build up some hours and make a few connections (but don’t believe everything you get promised!). If you’re still quite young then I would continue as you are. Instructing full time pays sod all and 1000's of hours in Cessnas and warriors is pretty counter productive so you would be better driving your van and do a bit of twin IFR flying in your spare time and possible part time instructing (if finances stretch to a rating). Things are picking up, so keep your hand in and i'm sure something will come about for you in the next 12-24 months (sounds like a long time doesn’t it
)
Just as long as Mr. Laden and Co. behave everything should be fine.
Regards and keep knocking out them C.V.'s
2 WINGS
Well done for passing everything, I think your route to success may have been a bit pricey but different strokes for different folks and you’ve now got your licence so that’s what matters.
All I would add.... is that a type with no time is worth diddley.
I totally disagree, but that’s another thread!If you can afford to do one then it would be an advantage for fairly obvious reasons but don’t put yourself out on the street. I don’t think it will become 'industry norm', only while supply outstrips demand. As for money, you ether borrow it off the bank or borrow through the airline (Ryanair, EasyJet, BMI Baby, etc.) if you can get on to their schemes (Lots of PROs and CONs!!!
) Have you applied to any? I know of a few who have got in.I think age plays a part. If your getting on, then instructing may be the way to quickly build up some hours and make a few connections (but don’t believe everything you get promised!). If you’re still quite young then I would continue as you are. Instructing full time pays sod all and 1000's of hours in Cessnas and warriors is pretty counter productive so you would be better driving your van and do a bit of twin IFR flying in your spare time and possible part time instructing (if finances stretch to a rating). Things are picking up, so keep your hand in and i'm sure something will come about for you in the next 12-24 months (sounds like a long time doesn’t it
)Just as long as Mr. Laden and Co. behave everything should be fine.
Regards and keep knocking out them C.V.'s
2 WINGS
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I am respectful of all views but i heard a quote from a guy who runs at top training provider that there was about 2000+ low hour guys and girls waiting for there first break!
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hi 2 wings on my wagon
thanks for your posting.
ill give this whole thing some more thought tomorrow cos im off for some drinks in Tiger Tiger to try to find some Virgin Atlantic cabin crew and kid on i am actually doing the job but i must say i love your `cold as ice` approch to things and hope i end up down route in Hong Kong in a few years with a skipper like you!
ill also think about the money tomorrow.
thanks for your posting.
ill give this whole thing some more thought tomorrow cos im off for some drinks in Tiger Tiger to try to find some Virgin Atlantic cabin crew and kid on i am actually doing the job but i must say i love your `cold as ice` approch to things and hope i end up down route in Hong Kong in a few years with a skipper like you!
ill also think about the money tomorrow.
Gaining experience instructing may not be directly relevant to piloting an A340-500 for 14 hours but instructors are getting still getting jobs and will continue to do so. Those who tell you otherwise are either a) after your money b) in an airline that doesnt employ instructors (there are a few, c) well meaning ex-integrated graduates or d) talking out of their arse.
I've been hearing that instructing is dead as an entry to airline flying on this website since 1998 and its simply not true.
I've been hearing that instructing is dead as an entry to airline flying on this website since 1998 and its simply not true.
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I've read some of the tosh that goes on this site and I wander why I bother, it would be nice to hear the view of someone that knows what they are talking about and all we get is a bunch of no hope losers that have never got an airline job making out they know someting about it.
Your advice chaps, heard it all, same old blar.
Your advice chaps, heard it all, same old blar.
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Hose, you are saying you are not interested in doing some bob-a-job getting paid peanuts in order to get contacts and the 'fairy godmother' or that you dont want to instruct.
From what I am reading into your post it is airline job or nothing, from the money side of things. Whilst I wish you every success, get in line mate.
What all these training companies tell you is the fantastic pay and great lifestyle pilots have. No doubt Oxford would have assured you they would do their utmost to get you a job at the end of training which is why you could justify the extra investment it was for this course. Well I see in flight international they are struggling to hold on to their existing employees let alone spend any time trying to find you some work!
Whilst I think Oxford is an excellent school for the most part they have a self created superior standing about their importance in the world of training. I can assure you where you have come from these days in the world of non-sponsorship is largely of little importance. More important these days is can you think ahead and get on with the guy in the left. I would say 70/80% of the guys/girls with a licence could quite happily fall into that category and fly a jet with minimum training. Whilst there are people willing to pay for this 'privilige' and there is always a pool of ready and able youngsters to do this, airlines will get them to pay for it.
On my conversion course all the 'older' guys were instructors then turboprop and are still hampered by debt to this day. All the young boys are CTC ATP or McAlpine Cadets and many of them are in the same boat, only slightly less than 70k for the most part. We all face hardship when we are starting out.
To put it bluntly, even the ATP guys are getting shafted for the first 6 months. 1k a month for 6 months barely pays the bills but all of us are happy to accept that simply because of the experience and full pay they go on afterwards. That is just going to cover your loan, plus you need to find somewhere to live and eat. 1k just isn't going to cut it for you, without a further bridging loan.
I am not offering any solutions here I realise that, but no-one here is going to come back with any information that is going to really help you. If you want your ego stroked and someone to say you will find a job and it will all be OK, phone up Oxford and book a JOT course. I guarantee they will be all smiles. I worked at LHR chucking freight for 6 months, yesturday I passed my LST on the 737 but then I did things differently to you and for half the cost, go figure. I am not saying my way is the best way, but seems to be more the norm these days and I personally could not see how the APP was ever going to work without a sponsor. Heck, even CTC having 25 or so guys who have no sponsor and are facing being in the ATP pool for a while after they finish. I know where my money would have been if these schemes had been around when I started out!
Most struggled to get that first break and get out of debt. At the end of the day I am sure you carefully considered the APP scheme, but I am sure there would have been those that said go modular and those that will come on here again and say 'should have done modular' but you made that choice and now you are really paying for it, by struggling with the extra financial burden. On the flip side Oxford could have come good to their word and got you a jet job.....thats life, and thats the aviation industry.
As for those guys who have nothing to fall back on, I would say they are in a better position because they are more likely to work somewhere relevant and were they might meet that 'fairy godmother' it happens you can be sure of that.
I wouldn't sherk instructing or working for peanuts chucking bags, it's how many before you and after you will get in, maybe with less debt but again, that was your choice. Dont' hang around waiting for Oxford get you a job, there are just as many guys/girls coming through behind you, current....
Best of luck. TRon
From what I am reading into your post it is airline job or nothing, from the money side of things. Whilst I wish you every success, get in line mate.
What all these training companies tell you is the fantastic pay and great lifestyle pilots have. No doubt Oxford would have assured you they would do their utmost to get you a job at the end of training which is why you could justify the extra investment it was for this course. Well I see in flight international they are struggling to hold on to their existing employees let alone spend any time trying to find you some work!
Whilst I think Oxford is an excellent school for the most part they have a self created superior standing about their importance in the world of training. I can assure you where you have come from these days in the world of non-sponsorship is largely of little importance. More important these days is can you think ahead and get on with the guy in the left. I would say 70/80% of the guys/girls with a licence could quite happily fall into that category and fly a jet with minimum training. Whilst there are people willing to pay for this 'privilige' and there is always a pool of ready and able youngsters to do this, airlines will get them to pay for it.
On my conversion course all the 'older' guys were instructors then turboprop and are still hampered by debt to this day. All the young boys are CTC ATP or McAlpine Cadets and many of them are in the same boat, only slightly less than 70k for the most part. We all face hardship when we are starting out.
To put it bluntly, even the ATP guys are getting shafted for the first 6 months. 1k a month for 6 months barely pays the bills but all of us are happy to accept that simply because of the experience and full pay they go on afterwards. That is just going to cover your loan, plus you need to find somewhere to live and eat. 1k just isn't going to cut it for you, without a further bridging loan.
I am not offering any solutions here I realise that, but no-one here is going to come back with any information that is going to really help you. If you want your ego stroked and someone to say you will find a job and it will all be OK, phone up Oxford and book a JOT course. I guarantee they will be all smiles. I worked at LHR chucking freight for 6 months, yesturday I passed my LST on the 737 but then I did things differently to you and for half the cost, go figure. I am not saying my way is the best way, but seems to be more the norm these days and I personally could not see how the APP was ever going to work without a sponsor. Heck, even CTC having 25 or so guys who have no sponsor and are facing being in the ATP pool for a while after they finish. I know where my money would have been if these schemes had been around when I started out!
Most struggled to get that first break and get out of debt. At the end of the day I am sure you carefully considered the APP scheme, but I am sure there would have been those that said go modular and those that will come on here again and say 'should have done modular' but you made that choice and now you are really paying for it, by struggling with the extra financial burden. On the flip side Oxford could have come good to their word and got you a jet job.....thats life, and thats the aviation industry.
As for those guys who have nothing to fall back on, I would say they are in a better position because they are more likely to work somewhere relevant and were they might meet that 'fairy godmother' it happens you can be sure of that.
I wouldn't sherk instructing or working for peanuts chucking bags, it's how many before you and after you will get in, maybe with less debt but again, that was your choice. Dont' hang around waiting for Oxford get you a job, there are just as many guys/girls coming through behind you, current....
Best of luck. TRon
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Hose
"Thanks for your replies but I have heard it all before"
well why ask the question then?
"When I started on this route I never had any intention of being an Instructor or a baggage handler. I have no intention of doing it now".
You arrogant p***K. Granted, we should all aim high but face reality. If you honestly thought that it was going to be a straight forward walk from training into an airline, then i have no sympathy for you. You obviously fell for the marketing story. Ask any pilot flying commercially, i bet they all have different routes mod/ integrated etc but i also bet they all had to do things which they really didn't want to do to get into the position of doing something they enjoy.
I.E hard workers, people with drive and commitment. Not people who can't understand why the airlines are not battering down their doors cos they've got a new CPL/IR.
"My view now is that people are being taken in by a con".
No, You have been taken in by the con. If you thought it was going to be easy and that you would have to do nothing to get a job apart from lick a few envelopes, Then you are a LOSER.
"Thanks for your replies but I have heard it all before"
well why ask the question then?
"When I started on this route I never had any intention of being an Instructor or a baggage handler. I have no intention of doing it now".
You arrogant p***K. Granted, we should all aim high but face reality. If you honestly thought that it was going to be a straight forward walk from training into an airline, then i have no sympathy for you. You obviously fell for the marketing story. Ask any pilot flying commercially, i bet they all have different routes mod/ integrated etc but i also bet they all had to do things which they really didn't want to do to get into the position of doing something they enjoy.
I.E hard workers, people with drive and commitment. Not people who can't understand why the airlines are not battering down their doors cos they've got a new CPL/IR.
"My view now is that people are being taken in by a con".
No, You have been taken in by the con. If you thought it was going to be easy and that you would have to do nothing to get a job apart from lick a few envelopes, Then you are a LOSER.
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FlyBE do not ask for money upfront. You have to sign a bond with them for 3 years, and they effectively pay the bond into your wage packet. The moment you quit, you then have to take on the repayments yourself. So as long as you don't quit - no problem! Unfortunately, it's not the same for most other airlines, although it should be!
I went to Oxford, and I'm afraid to say I found their 'help' after in finding a job just totally worthless. Don't expect them to help you. Send out your CV's, every month. Find out who is actually in charge of sorting through those CV's and call them. As said above, networking is the key.
Have you also considered the possibility of becoming cabin crew? Don't laugh at the idea too quickly - I know a few guys who did it, met all the right people, became friendly with various Capts who might be able to put in a good word for them etc. All on 737 now.
You'll be mixing with like-minded folk, will get to hear insider gossip for the airline you're working for, and it all helps. You'll get to know those in the offices who do the recruiting, can build up a decent relationship with them, and with any luck when they need someone, they'll look at you.
Last year BA advertised internally for anyone with a fATPL who might like to progress onto the flight deck. Lucky for those who were working for BA at the time!
Just out of interest - you say you are a very recent graduate. How long ago did you finish? Without wanting to be too pessimistic, I know guys who finished 2 years ago and still don't have jobs. And they also had 1st time passes etc etc. You could be waiting a long time to get that 1st job - just don't give up, because it is worth it in the end!
I went to Oxford, and I'm afraid to say I found their 'help' after in finding a job just totally worthless. Don't expect them to help you. Send out your CV's, every month. Find out who is actually in charge of sorting through those CV's and call them. As said above, networking is the key.
Have you also considered the possibility of becoming cabin crew? Don't laugh at the idea too quickly - I know a few guys who did it, met all the right people, became friendly with various Capts who might be able to put in a good word for them etc. All on 737 now.
You'll be mixing with like-minded folk, will get to hear insider gossip for the airline you're working for, and it all helps. You'll get to know those in the offices who do the recruiting, can build up a decent relationship with them, and with any luck when they need someone, they'll look at you.
Last year BA advertised internally for anyone with a fATPL who might like to progress onto the flight deck. Lucky for those who were working for BA at the time!
Just out of interest - you say you are a very recent graduate. How long ago did you finish? Without wanting to be too pessimistic, I know guys who finished 2 years ago and still don't have jobs. And they also had 1st time passes etc etc. You could be waiting a long time to get that 1st job - just don't give up, because it is worth it in the end!
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I do not believe for one moment that anyone started their training with the intention of being an instructor, cabin crew, baggage handler or whatever. It is only AFTER they graduate they make up these 'routes' into a job.
People thinking of taking on a huge loan to fund their training need to know that at the end they will need to find even more money AND pay back the original loan from a low paid job.
People thinking of taking on a huge loan to fund their training need to know that at the end they will need to find even more money AND pay back the original loan from a low paid job.
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hose, Listen. I doubt anyone actually went in with the intention of being cabin crew, baggage handler etc. Thats why they are doing a pilot licences.
The point you are missing is that the smart ones and often the more successful ones are the ones the realise and budget for this reality. That then puts the likes of Oxford's APP or even an integrated course out of their grasp financially if they are borrowing the full amount, but I wouldn't call that a bad thing. But lets not makes this an Integrated vs Modular argument.
you say: "It is only AFTER they graduate they make up these 'routes' into a job."
Well of course, not many work during an integrated course, you simply havent got the time, but your attitude seems to imply you expected to get hired straight away afterwards.
Those that do (and it does happen) are a) VERY lucky b) know someone prior to going in, probably by already working these 'crappy' jobs you mention before they started their licence.
They do this by saving for a long time rather than taking out a full loan as you probably have and are as such probably a bit older than you or were in a better job.
Most realise you are going to have to do a 'crappy' job as you put it afterwards to get ahead and not just be another CV or a name on Mike Taylor's growing unemployed APP 'list'.
If you couldn't really afford the 650 a month for 11 years, I hate to say it, why didn't you go for a cheaper option because it seems to be limiting your options now, and there isn't any left over for a Type Rating. All these things were considerations 18 months ago when I imagine you started and got 'sold' the dream. There are other ways, although you will normally have to part with some more money, but I guess airlines should be paying that for you right? Since you got 89% in your fATPL's and first time passes in your CPL and IR......Who Cares?
I am now 737 Type Rated and employed all for half the cost of the APP. All this took me two years including 5 months doing a 'crappy' job trying to get a foot in the door.
From the few posts I have read from you, I think you will be driving that van for a long time until you change your attitude. Some people might call that a crappy job.......
The point you are missing is that the smart ones and often the more successful ones are the ones the realise and budget for this reality. That then puts the likes of Oxford's APP or even an integrated course out of their grasp financially if they are borrowing the full amount, but I wouldn't call that a bad thing. But lets not makes this an Integrated vs Modular argument.
you say: "It is only AFTER they graduate they make up these 'routes' into a job."
Well of course, not many work during an integrated course, you simply havent got the time, but your attitude seems to imply you expected to get hired straight away afterwards.
Those that do (and it does happen) are a) VERY lucky b) know someone prior to going in, probably by already working these 'crappy' jobs you mention before they started their licence.
They do this by saving for a long time rather than taking out a full loan as you probably have and are as such probably a bit older than you or were in a better job.
Most realise you are going to have to do a 'crappy' job as you put it afterwards to get ahead and not just be another CV or a name on Mike Taylor's growing unemployed APP 'list'.
If you couldn't really afford the 650 a month for 11 years, I hate to say it, why didn't you go for a cheaper option because it seems to be limiting your options now, and there isn't any left over for a Type Rating. All these things were considerations 18 months ago when I imagine you started and got 'sold' the dream. There are other ways, although you will normally have to part with some more money, but I guess airlines should be paying that for you right? Since you got 89% in your fATPL's and first time passes in your CPL and IR......Who Cares?
I am now 737 Type Rated and employed all for half the cost of the APP. All this took me two years including 5 months doing a 'crappy' job trying to get a foot in the door.
From the few posts I have read from you, I think you will be driving that van for a long time until you change your attitude. Some people might call that a crappy job.......
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thanks rto,
Since leaving the protective cocoon of Oxford i most certainly have had a reality check. Phew!
Cos your so busy there passing tests and you hear of airlines comming in and out of the place to meet with the senior bods. you feel that when you finnish you will be lined up with at the very least an interview - well that just hasnt and wont happen.
I dont blame Oxford for that i really think they are trying to sort something cos it would be in their own commercial interests to do so its just that this `reality check` im having is telling me that the airlines simply dont give a hoot about what oxford have to say about the APP.
The training there is superb no doubt about it. So professional, so slick, OK a bit of `showmanship` over the career service but no regrets over that side of things. No, what is dawning on me is that these airlines are being run by accountants and the fundamental business principal of supply and demand is meaning that there is absolutly no need for airlines to pay for type ratings for us new guys anymore!
I say again, does anyone out there know the answer to this
* How many low hour Frozen ATPL holders are out there clogging up this system and creating this situation?
If the CAA, BALPA, FTO`s dont know you can be sure of one thing - those airline accountants know - its their professional job to know - but they wont let on cos they would like even more pilots in training to ensure they can continue to dictate what drives pilot recruitment!
hi tron
Some good points well made - particually your last line!
Are you saying that following your ATPL training you self sponsored your own 737 type rating and this helped you get a job?
If you did you are actually helping to answer the question i originallty set out to get answered yesterday - are we getting into a situation of having to budget into the costs of becomming an airline pilot the cost of a type rating because that could be the deciding factor on weather or not you get an interview.
If it is then logic would indeed say that if the last thing on your licence is an LST in a 737, what employer in his right mind would then be bothered what kind of ATPL training course you did and, within reason, how well you did on it!
If people knew to add a £15 - £20,000 type training course to the ATPL costs they could cut their cloth accordingly (or not even bother getting the scissors out in the first place).
Since leaving the protective cocoon of Oxford i most certainly have had a reality check. Phew!
Cos your so busy there passing tests and you hear of airlines comming in and out of the place to meet with the senior bods. you feel that when you finnish you will be lined up with at the very least an interview - well that just hasnt and wont happen.
I dont blame Oxford for that i really think they are trying to sort something cos it would be in their own commercial interests to do so its just that this `reality check` im having is telling me that the airlines simply dont give a hoot about what oxford have to say about the APP.
The training there is superb no doubt about it. So professional, so slick, OK a bit of `showmanship` over the career service but no regrets over that side of things. No, what is dawning on me is that these airlines are being run by accountants and the fundamental business principal of supply and demand is meaning that there is absolutly no need for airlines to pay for type ratings for us new guys anymore!
I say again, does anyone out there know the answer to this
* How many low hour Frozen ATPL holders are out there clogging up this system and creating this situation?
If the CAA, BALPA, FTO`s dont know you can be sure of one thing - those airline accountants know - its their professional job to know - but they wont let on cos they would like even more pilots in training to ensure they can continue to dictate what drives pilot recruitment!
hi tron
Some good points well made - particually your last line!
Are you saying that following your ATPL training you self sponsored your own 737 type rating and this helped you get a job?
If you did you are actually helping to answer the question i originallty set out to get answered yesterday - are we getting into a situation of having to budget into the costs of becomming an airline pilot the cost of a type rating because that could be the deciding factor on weather or not you get an interview.
If it is then logic would indeed say that if the last thing on your licence is an LST in a 737, what employer in his right mind would then be bothered what kind of ATPL training course you did and, within reason, how well you did on it!
If people knew to add a £15 - £20,000 type training course to the ATPL costs they could cut their cloth accordingly (or not even bother getting the scissors out in the first place).
Grim Sleeper
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airlines are being run by accountants and the fundamental business principal of supply and demand is meaning that there is absolutly no need for airlines to pay for type ratings for us new guys anymore
Shame it took you this long. That's why the mass type-rating training organisations (aka low-cost carriers) are making people pay for their type ratings, and bonding them as well! read the other thread on this forum here which shows which road the successful guys are going down at the moment.
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Oh Dear.. some people get ever so excited about the most insignificant of matters, chill out 
Hose: You will have to make your own decisions in life, as you can see the views on this thread are both contradictory and ambigious. One picks up The Daily Mail/Telegraph and then you pick up The Guardian, somebodies got to be wrong and you'll make your own choice. If you don't want to be a baggage handler, then don't!!!
You took this route to do a job you wanted to enjoy, I personally would NEVER become cabin crew (Flight Ops and Baggage Handler, no probs). If the likes of JOE think you're an 'arrogant p***k' as he/she (don't know whether the E on the end makes a difference to the gender.. who cares anyway) so uncouthly states, than let them, who gives a monkeys what they think.
I certainly would consider airside/airline work as it can be beneficial in the long run, but I respect that sometimes the poor pay can hinder financial stability particularly with looming loans to repay.
Work hard, make contacts, keep your ear to the ground.. preferably both if possible! Network, get those C.Vs out try to find an aviation related job whilst your driving vans. Renew the IR at the very least if that time comes round and stay confident and don't get depressed.. for
sake this forum is bloody full of all sorts having a dig at each other telling others that they should feel fortunate when the person administering the castigations is having a moan themselves. What a damn contradiction, there are people dying and starving out there and all they can do is sit on their arse moaning, bogging at a flaming monitor
Well, now that's off my chest and has been said, I would suggest you speak directly to Oxford, your appear to be fiercely protective of them, WHY??
Many have disregarded the fact that Integrated an an approved college such as Oxford is of no benefit, I disagree, many airlines have taken self-sponsored low houred integrated students from Oxford, those who dispute this view are mearly resentful and in denial.
But on one last note of curiosity and perhaps you can inform me Hose, what is this APP and is it worth the £ 20000 extra you would pay for an integrated course at an approved college of equal 'excellence' such as Cabair and BAe Systems!!
You should be asking Oxford this now.. they have a duty
I look forward to your reply and all the best in the job hunting
Hose: You will have to make your own decisions in life, as you can see the views on this thread are both contradictory and ambigious. One picks up The Daily Mail/Telegraph and then you pick up The Guardian, somebodies got to be wrong and you'll make your own choice. If you don't want to be a baggage handler, then don't!!!
You took this route to do a job you wanted to enjoy, I personally would NEVER become cabin crew (Flight Ops and Baggage Handler, no probs). If the likes of JOE think you're an 'arrogant p***k' as he/she (don't know whether the E on the end makes a difference to the gender.. who cares anyway) so uncouthly states, than let them, who gives a monkeys what they think.
I certainly would consider airside/airline work as it can be beneficial in the long run, but I respect that sometimes the poor pay can hinder financial stability particularly with looming loans to repay.
Work hard, make contacts, keep your ear to the ground.. preferably both if possible! Network, get those C.Vs out try to find an aviation related job whilst your driving vans. Renew the IR at the very least if that time comes round and stay confident and don't get depressed.. for
sake this forum is bloody full of all sorts having a dig at each other telling others that they should feel fortunate when the person administering the castigations is having a moan themselves. What a damn contradiction, there are people dying and starving out there and all they can do is sit on their arse moaning, bogging at a flaming monitor Well, now that's off my chest and has been said, I would suggest you speak directly to Oxford, your appear to be fiercely protective of them, WHY??
Many have disregarded the fact that Integrated an an approved college such as Oxford is of no benefit, I disagree, many airlines have taken self-sponsored low houred integrated students from Oxford, those who dispute this view are mearly resentful and in denial.
But on one last note of curiosity and perhaps you can inform me Hose, what is this APP and is it worth the £ 20000 extra you would pay for an integrated course at an approved college of equal 'excellence' such as Cabair and BAe Systems!!
You should be asking Oxford this now.. they have a duty
I look forward to your reply and all the best in the job hunting
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* How many low hour Frozen ATPL holders are out there clogging up this system and creating this situation?
Well your one are you not!!!You could say what about all these old pilots; they’ve had their turn. What about all these American pilots who are looking for work in Europe because the U.S. market is in a very bad state, they should go home. What about all the young school leavers who beg for sponsorship, they should do it like the rest of us had too.
Are any of the above "clogging the system"? No, are they buggery. They get jobs because the airlines want their experience, their qualifications and their personalities! When there is a vacancy it will be filled with a pilot who fits with what the employer wants, be it a decent secondary education, a type rating, hours on type or just because their face fits!
2WINGS
P.S. I agree with everything said in the previous post.