OXford and Jobs

[Dr.Evil 2002]

For those of you who did/are training at Oxford I wonder if you can offer your opinion on the following......
Now when I graduated I signed up/registered for the career development service offered by Oxford. Since then I have received my monthly email update (or not!!) from the ever so helpful, characterless and cant remeber your name even though he's met you over 50 times career development officer and have had the promise of serveral potential employers wanting to take Ox grads.

Sent my CV to Ox, waited...waited....waited. Have met the criteria for all the employers that have (apparently) approaced Ox for low hour pilots etc etc.

I then get the odd email saying the employer has put recruitment on hold or they are about to call forward some grads for selection. (Im sure this sounds familiar)

In the meantime my friends from other training providers are getting interviews, sims, JOBS and I am told I cannot apply direct to these airlines as it MUST go through Oxford.

Well i'm just a little bit miffed about it all. Yeah OK I understand that very recently some grads have got jobs with flybe but considering the amout of crews they are recruiting compared with the number of those that are Ox grads it appears to me that Ox are restricting my chances of employment rather than enhancing them.

Before anyone asks, I got a first time pass at g/school (90%) and first time passes at flight tests (finished with a grade 2)

Can anyone shed any light on all of this?

[Saitek]

You posted at 5:55am.....sleepless night?

Same boat my friend, same grades exactly as you, same opinion on Career Development Officer, he is half a sandwich short of a picnic. I went to see him for half an hour on the day before the BALPA employment conference, before I had finished the I/R, to discuss a few issues. Next day at the conference I saw him and said hello and his reply was "hi, how are you doing, hows the job hunting been since you left us".......

I have seen people get work through Oxford, though even as my grades have been reasonably high they havn't given me one glimmer of light, maybe age +30 might have something to do with it, I don't know.

I havn't hung around though, I paid £60k for my ATPL and I am not going to sit and starve and not apply to companies because Oxford say so ......... boll ks to that.

They're obligation was to complete my training which they did well, and now obligations are over as far as I see it, If they do come forward great, but I am not in any way relying on that to happen.

Interestingly enough, they took 8 to Ryanair last week and are taking 16 more. Flybe want 40 by the end of the year.

Between my course mates we are all of the opinion that the career development officer is the not the right man for the job, he is not putting the best interests of students first, as you so rightly point out, but rather the interests of the Airlines.

He is also a politician who will never give you a straight answer but always comes out with 1 of 10 standard phases.

Remember these, you should they've been used 1000's of times:

Q, Hi career development I'd like some information on CV's

A, " Do you realise the Airline industry is predicted to treble in size by the year 2030, think of the opportunites that presents "

Q, I say Mr. Career development officer is that Cheese and Pickle in your sandwiches.

A, How many aircraft have easyjet ordered? how many pilots will they need? so how many jobs will be created by others leaving to fill those roles"

I wouldn't bother he is a waste of time

Try the IPA on www.ipapilot.com or 01444 441149 if you havn't already, miles more helpfull than BALPA also, people who know what they're talking about, who listen and give masses of relevent information to help......Good luck

[High Wing Drifter]

Dr Evil,

I have no experience of Oxford. But my experience of employment agents in other industries is that they will only find you a job if it suits them to do so. I can't imagine why aviation would be any different.

Usually in other businesses motivation to help other peoples careers comes in the form of substantial commission. Unless this guy is getting paid for each student he secures a job with, the sponsored students are always (rather than mostly) going to get the first shout.

Find out if he has a daughter and marry her. That should move you to the top of the pile.

Good luck,
HWD.

[witchdoctor]

Heh heh, oh dear, oh dear.

Yes, a familiar and sorry tale, and one which affects me too. However, it doesn't bother me greatly. I receive the e-mails quite happily for all the use that they are, and just do my own thing regarding jobs. I doubt the mystery airlines throw any CV's in the bin that didn't come via Oxford.

I do know some of the grads on the OAT website who have had jobs thanks to meeting the selection criteria to go via OAT (I don't by the way, so never bothered enquiring further), and personally I wish them well. I also know plenty more who have found employment without anybody else's help. Take your chances wherever you get 'em I say.

[trainer too 2]

Any info on this Ryanair and Flybe deal??

[Half a Mexican]

Dr. Evil,

Can I ask how old you are?

Saitek mentioned the being 30+ might have something to do
with the difficulties he has been having; do you think your age could be a factor?

--
HaM

[monkeyboy]

trainer too 2, allow me to answer your question on the Ryanair scheme:

Oxford submitted 8 CVs to Ryanair some weeks ago and the gist was that you attended two selection days down at GECAT and if successful, you were then asked to fork up £17K to pay for your type rating with the possibility of being taken on afterwards with Ryanair. Notice the word possibility.

I know because I was one of the 8 selected but turned it down as I do not have £17k to spare after paying for me CPL/IR.

If you look on the GECAT website, you will see a link somewhere near the bottom mentioning Self Sponsored. I believe this is the same scheme..........and I've just noticed from your profile that you're already type rated so not much use to you, I'm afraid!

[Dr.Evil 2002]

How should I start my reply......

"Ladies and Gentlemen..."

Well I'm 26 so age shouldn't be such an issue.
It just seems the guy is a complete waste of space, like the previous posts I had the same experience when I met him..... the next day he didn't know who the hell I was!!!!

For those of you who know him.....If you were a Chief Pilot or head of HR would you trust this guy to provide you with quality crew?

I'm sure as hell I wouldn't.

Come on Anthony...... Get a grip mate!!

[Down3Greens]

i concur fully......

[runway]

...could it be that we are all waiting to see what happent to the APP students. I can't help thinking that perhaps our career depletement officer is holding fire to try and get as many of their enthusiastic and elite pilots jobs when they graduate. After all, Oxford has pinned its entire reputation on these people, and they are going to be pretty annoyed if they find that they don't have the jobs they were promised, which they paid an extra 20k for (he he). If this is the case then i feel that oxford may be up a certain creek without a certain impliment.

runway.

[Saitek]

With you Dr Evil

Nothing wrong with Oxford from the MD to Customer Services, everyone is approachable, professional and helpful..... Except Career Development.

Well he is in essence a nice guy, just unhelpful, completely disinterested and always trying, seemingly, to get those "annoying students" off his back.

It's a shame as Oxford have gone to great lengths to bring the facilities into the 21st century, career development really is the weak link, unless of course it is purley only a marketing tool to bring in new business, and not there to actually help students, in which case it's a rip roaring success. You always hear students talk about it in a "it's a waste of time, there is no point bothering" kind of fashion.

The current career development officer is good for the CV/Interview seminars no doubt, but if Oxford really want to increase their partner airline tie-ups (like CTC are doing) and really want Career development to serve the interests of the students (Oxford recomendations, Airline recruiters of tomorrow) they need to have a dynamic, corporate, gregarious go-getter type of person in the job and not a disinterested political pussy cat.

For Oxfords sake it needs addressing as there is much dis-satisfaction on this part of the service, it simply aint good enough

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Runway.... I hope you're wrong but on reflection it could well be that they are planning (hoping) to get the APP grads jobs. It is very much a s**t or bust situation though cos I would be pretty pissed off paying that money for the APP and OATS not at least getting me an interview.

At the end of the day we all have to work our butts off to get that first elusive job, we all know that.
The thing I resent is the attitude "You MUST go through us, you CAN'T apply direct because it will ruin the relationship we (OATS) have with the airline"

Well i'm sorry Mr. Career Development Officer but if you woke up from your coma and showed some enthusiasm and desire to get your fee paying CUSTOMERS a foot in the door i'm sure so many people wouldn't be so pissed off with you.

As Saitek says, OATS are good, they certainly helped get me the grades I did so like I said before....Anthony..... get your act together and don't let one area of your company let you down so badly.

[Busta Level]

Ahhh..good old Oxford....Not

Why am I not at all surprised that the story remains the same ast it was in '97. How have they managed to get away with it for so long? Whilst the training and intructors were first class, the whole operation is let down by the admin/marketing/'career' departments.

When I was coming to the end of my course, as Oxford suggested, I went to arrange an appointment with the guy in question (can't remember his name!) to discuss employment options, look at my CV for suggestions on improving it etc etc. As he had spent the last 13 months saying how great he was, and how he had so many airline contacts, I thought he might be able to be of some help. I was told by his miserable secretary to 'come back once you've got your IR......

OK - although as I was not expecting him to find me a job, just looking for some of his much advertised 'advice', I thought that after the IR was a bit late, as I'd be in the process of leaving Oxford.

After the IR, I went to make an appointment, to be told that he could see me in two weeks! So I moved out of Oxford, back to London, and started the long job search on no money with loan payments looming. On the appointed day I borrowed some money and car from my GF, and drove to Oxford. I arrived about 15 minutes early, and was told to sit and wait outside his office, he was on the phone and would be with me shortly.

1 Hour later he was on his 4th phone call, and had not even acknowledged my prescence, even though he could see me sitting outside his glass walled office. I was getting a bit annoyed, as I had to get the car back for my GF to go to work. Finally, the phone calls ended, and then some mullet headed to$$er walked straight past me into the office, and sat down in front of the employment guys desk. They launched into a mirthful in depth discussion for another hour

Still with no acknowledgment of my prescence, I had to leave, so left my CV and contact number with his secretary, who promised he would call.

Never heard from him again. What a waste of space he is. What is the point of him?

Whilst I was in no way expecting him to find me a job, I do think that his behaviour was inexcusable. I did find a (very good) job eventually, but it had nothing whatsoever to do with the Oxford career department. This despite his crowing both before and during the course about his skill and derring at allowing students to land that elusive job.

The thing I resent is the attitude "You MUST go through us, you CAN'T apply direct because it will ruin the relationship we (OATS) have with the airline"

Whatever you do, DO apply directly to the airlines. Bu&&er his 'relationship' with his imaginary 'airline contacts'. Would you rather be unemployed whilst he dodders about, or land a job? Good luck anyway

[TRon]

It's a fact that Oxford are seething about CTC Nicking 'their' idea. McAlpine's are next door for god's sake and they went with CTC!

Rod Wren, Oxford's ex head of training, jumped ship to CTC and started the CTC McAlpine sponsorship scheme and is exactly the same model as the APP, although I am sure there will be someone from the marketing department who will highlight the differences for us!

Difference being CTC actually have some tangible customers before they asked people to fork over 60-70k, Oxford are full of promise and we know what that amounts too....

So I think we can see why Oxford are so annoyed and pushing on with the APP. I think it is just a second rate stab at not falling behind, and losing their long standing market domination. I think the competition from CTC is healthy and should shake out some of the dead wood from Oxford.

I also had a chat with Mike Taylor having left Oxford who told me that since I was modular and didn't do my groundschool there they couldn't put me forward for anything...As if they make any difference.

In his letters it whiffs of desperation and I quote:

When you get employed please let me know so I can amend our records; also it is invaluable to have a contact within the airline.

On the same theme, when you get employed we would appreciate if you would email us a picture of yourself – ideally in uniform on the flight deck – which we can publish on our website.

Will those who attend selection processes email or telephone me details of the process; this way I can build up a comprehensive database?

If you have any information that you feel that will be of use such as useful email addresses, airline who are recruiting, etc. please let me know so I can inform all the other graduates.

If there are any topics, seminars, etc. that you would like added to the Professional Studies Programme please let me know.

If you have any experiences that you wish to share with your colleagues such as Employment in the USA, the Job Market in Italy, Flying in Africa, please email details to me.

All of the above seems to benefit them.

On the whole I was very happy with oxford on the flying side I just feel they are being massively let down by the departments mentioned before.

It is not that I expect them to help me, as the only person that is really going to do that is me, but the fact they tell some guys/girls that they will put them forward and 'not to apply direct if you are an oxford graduate' is quite pathetic and only serves to really pi$$ people off as they make out they have our lives in their hands, when in reality they arent doing anything unless it benefits them but some out of respect will not apply...and will never get put forward.

It's like you are taking their toys away from them, and they want them back!

I think the career department was set up for the influx of airlines that they thought would flock to their hallowed APP Program. Now poor old Mike is just dealing with run-of-the-mill Modular students and non-selected Integrated and will fob you off with standard answers, that is until you get a job, then get in touch with a photo and some contacts, that they should already have right?!

I would reccomend Oxford time and time again for flying but I just wouldn't pin any of your hopes on it affecting your chance of getting a job, or them getting one for you as the only person that can do that is you by working your ar$e off!

[Dr.Evil 2002]

TRon, you made me laugh.... yeah I loved the email about letting him know when you get employed, emial addresses, contacts etc.... bollocks, i'm not doing his job for him!!

One last thing I will say as I remembered it this morning. When I went to see him with my CV he made a few comments, scribbled a few bits on it and sent me on my way.
When I returned the next day with the amendments he advised me to make he then (apart from not remembering me!) amended one of his amendments!!!!
Ok, I may as well have just bought the god damn book he was obviously getting his ideas from!!!

Well I later took my CV to a frind of mine who happens to be a Human Resources Manager who ripped him to bits and I now have a nice professional CV based on advice from a professional.

aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, such a shame.

ADVICE....... Don't cough up 60k+... go to CTC!!

[Saitek]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you get employed please let me know so I can amend our records; also it is invaluable to have a contact within the airline.

On the same theme, when you get employed we would appreciate if you would email us a picture of yourself – ideally in uniform on the flight deck – which we can publish on our website.

Will those who attend selection processes email or telephone me details of the process; this way I can build up a comprehensive database?

If you have any information that you feel that will be of use such as useful email addresses, airline who are recruiting, etc. please let me know so I can inform all the other graduates.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again totally agree with you TRon, that quote really gets my back up.

I was proud to have gone to Oxford, and I would have loved to help them, give them my picture, telephone them with details, help them in any way I could, BUT I just cannot, and all because of career development, I cannot help them to deceive people in my position in the furture or to flog more courses.

As for supplying them with information, surely that is Mr Taylors job and not the students who nearly all secretly rubbish the so called service as a waste of Oxford money (save the money Anthony and give out free sandwiches instead, they'd be more useful).

It really is a shame, I have found Anthony Petiford to be a really astute, nice and helpful guy who has put right many of the wrongs at Oxford and dragged it into 2004, and then you've got the point where all that effort and investement interfaces with the UK airlines. Career Development office.

I did not know that CTC McAlpine stole Oxfords thunder as previously stated but you only have to speak to CTC and speak to Oxfords Career Development to see why they are storming ahead. Oxford will never make inroads into that impressive and growing list of Partner Airlines CTC have with the current format.

I have advocated Oxford in the highest terms in all areas except this one and I, unfortunately, as well as the 5 ex course members who have not found work, all agree, privately and will not offer them anything as things stand.


Do we have any pro Career development tales, any real incidences where they have made a big positive difference and not just bashed over a CV from which you were the one picked??

[Dr.Evil 2002]

READ THIS ANTHONY....FOR YOUR OWN SAKE

Anthony...........Please........... for your own sake and the sake of the poor ba ds that pay all that money........SORT IT OUT.

[Arrestahook]

Have been through Oxford and CTC, Oh dear, Anthony these people speaketh the truth.

[witchdoctor]

Aw come on guys, give Lofty a break. It could be a great deal worse. Anyone remember his predecessor?

Now there was a real c**k! And he was no better as a met instructor either. My God, how I wept with laughter all through every one of his tedious and repetitive lectures. Somebody must remember the standard phrases!

At least Lofty is a reasonably nice guy, just in the wrong job. I'm sure he means well, but that won't get anybody jobs unfortunately. Especially those that don't meet the 'mystery' airline criteria. What are Oxford doing to help the remainder of their customers I wonder?

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Witchdoctor... I agree he's a nice guy, but just useless at that job. It's a cut throat business and he needs his throat cut!!

I actually had his predecessor for met..... a very odd man!!!