Atlas Polar

[layinlow]

You sound like a rah-rah management guy. The 777 has almost the same weight carrying capacity and uses 25% less fuel than the Jumbo

[Deltabravowhiskey]

Originally Posted by lainlow

You sound like a rah-rah management guy. The 777 has almost the same weight carrying capacity and uses 25% less fuel than the Jumbo

Oh really?



308,000 pounds (140 metric tons) - 747-8F
------------------------------------------------
250,200 pounds (113.4 metric tons) - 747-400BCF
248,600 pounds (112.7 metric tons) - 747-400ERF
248,300 pounds (112.6 metric tons) - 747-400F
------------------------------------------------
226,000 pounds (103 metric tons) - 777-200LRF

Source: Boeing

DBW

[v1andgo]

DHL faces reality: Global air express giant finally concedes the US market is a lost cause

November 24, 2008--For five years, DHL and its parent Deutsche Post World Net talked a strong game regarding DHL's US venture: Even though it was bleeding money as it struggled to take away market share from UPS and FedEx in the world's largest and most lucrative express market, it was committed to becoming the "third alternative" and would grind through difficult years to gain a foothold in the one major global market where it isn't the leading player. But this month it decided the time had come to cut its losses, announcing that it will withdraw entirely from domestic US express operations on Jan. 30 and cede the market (ATWOnline, Nov. 11).
DPWN cited three key factors that drove the decision to focus only on international shipping to and from the US, a move that means DHL's daily air volume in the country will drop from 1.2 million shipments to just 100,000. First, it simply had to "face reality," DPWN CEO Frank Appel said at a recent press conference in Germany, explaining that the company had to acknowledge it could not figure out a way to operate profitably in the US. Its annual costs in the market averaged more than $5 billion and it could not generate enough revenue to earn money, losing an average of $1.3 billion per year. UPS and FedEx have long-entrenched, integrated networks in the US as well as tremendous brand awareness among American consumers and shippers, advantages that proved too significant for DHL to overcome.
Second, its business in other parts of the world, particularly Asia, has grown enough in the last five years that it no longer believes the US market holds the same strategic importance. Finally, the global economic downturn makes pouring money into a loss-making market prohibitive. DHL estimates it has lost $10 billion in the US since it purchased Airborne Express in 2003 and tried to battle UPS and FedEx on their home turf (ATW, January 2008).
"From a perspective of risk, we are entering unprecedented economic times," DHL Express CEO John Mullen said. "We see risk everywhere. The main way we can de-risk our US business is to significantly lower the costs."
Its new US model will be able to be operated at a cost of "below $1 billion" annually, he noted, more than $4 billion less than current annual costs in the market. The international portion of its US business generates about $1 billion in revenue annually, meaning that theoretically it should be able to earn a profit, or at least break even. Mullen commented that even if the US recession is severe, "we're structurally dedicated to a far lower loss" there.
He added that DHL will be able to shed "complex legacy systems from Airborne" as well as focus on a "much more concentrated market," as about 90% of US international shipments are to/from just 15-20 metropolitan areas in the nation. "To cover these areas is far less of a task" than providing blanket US coverage, he explained. In fact, he claimed, 71% of international shippers that continue to use DHL in the US will see "improved service levels" because these shipments to/from the US's biggest markets no longer will be tangled with the stressed domestic network.
International express carriage is DHL's "core strength," Appel said. "You shouldn't forget that our international business is highly profitable outside the US. . .The acquisition of Airborne was five years ago and the relative significance of the [US] market has dramatically changed. Today we have a much stronger China and Asia business and an integrated European network. That wasn't the case five years ago. So let's face reality. If we can't [serve the domestic US express market] on a profitable basis, we have to withdraw and spend money on areas [of the world] where we are clearly stronger than our competitors."
He added that DHL's reputation throughout much of the world as a top-notch service provider operating a well-run, profitable enterprise has been damaged somewhat by its troubled US business. "We are always working on our brand and we don't like that it's being heavily criticized at the moment in the US," he said.
DHL's move will have a significant impact on several US players. For starters, there will be more than 1 million daily domestic air shipments for which UPS and FedEx will fight. DHL subservice airlines ABX Air and Astar Air Cargo, which currently carry those shipments, are teetering on the edge of survival and, even if they manage to pull through, will be forced to cut thousands of workers and jettison dozens of aircraft. As for the 100,000 remaining shipments, representing the US line-haul portion of international shipments, DHL hopes to negotiate a deal with UPS under which its rival will ferry those packages airport-to-airport.

But it is an open question whether DHL will be able to remain a serious international player in the US market once it shuts down its domestic business. Mullen conceded that "we're not naive and we realize we could lose a considerable percentage [of current US international business] from those [shippers] that want to bundle [domestic and international] services with one provider."

He insisted, however, that DHL "can still offer a very credible service in and out [of the US]. . .Of course there will be some level of transition disruption, but we're very confident we'll be able to maintain the same level of service." Appel added, "We are not withdrawing from the US. We are concentrating on cross-border express."--Aaron Karp

[hvydriver]

A link to the article if you have it please, V1?

NVM. Found it.

[dumbdumb]

With this news out, how does Local 1224 expect to help Atlas get their feet off the ground should it prevail in the NMB vote to change to Teamsters. Be very careful what we wish for. Underfunded unions are a lost cause.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

Unlike ASTAR, ABX is not going out of business. ABX has already planned to move their 767's into the ACMI market. They will take a big hit but they will survive.

1224 is simply allowing us access to their office and legal staff which are already paid for. Beyond that Atlas/Polar will be self funded and banking money from day one to expedite the transition to an independent Local while paying for consumables utilized at 1224 during the transition.

DBW

[Best Angle]

Union Funding

Keeps sounding more half-baked all the time. This is no time to be changing unions. Just vote ALPA and we will consider all this after the merger.

[flite idol]

"Just vote ALPA and we will consider all this after the merger."

Just vote Republican and we will fix all this after the election.

Dream on!

[trashhauler]

An interesting post on another site. Some names have been removed of course but it doesn't ilicit warm fuzzies

This morning as I entered the MIA Crowne restaurant for breakfast, I saw ______________ and a person I didn't recognize. Being a FNG, I joined ____ and this individual. At the cordial introduction phase, I learn this is Dave Allen, of atlasforteamsters notariety.
I loathe to opinionate on the subject of ALPA vs. Teamsters, as I am new to this company and listen to those of you who have been around this alot longer than I have. However, I thought there were some subjects brought up this morning that I should share.
After the initial blank staring at my plate, a second Atlas crewmember joined us. Some small talk started, and the unsound reasoning started to make my head spin, so I asked what I thought would be reasonable questions. ___ feel free to correct anything I misstate or omit.
Mr. Allen was singing the praises of the teamsters. After 9 years of IBT in the airline division at my previous employer, what he was spinning did not jive with my previous experience. And thus started my brief inquisition.
I asked him if he had been a teamster before. His answer was that he had not. I then asked what his background was. He stated USAirways, then added Express. I asked which carrier he worked for, which he answered PSA. I threw out some "notorious" names, one that was a former MEC chairman with no acknowledgement. Turns out, he was there for 3 years prior to employment at atlas.
So my opening was created.
The first issue I brought up, as voting in the NMB election was a prior point of discussion, was Good Standing. I let Mr. Allen know that at the prior shop, there was a problem. In between the time a crewmember was hired and the dues checkoff actually started there was usually a gap. However, there was no notice from the IBT, and it was up to the crewmember to call and verify good standing prior to each election. I mentioned that issue usually prevented a significant percentage of votes from being counted for ratification of CBAs.
He did not know of any mechanism of ensuring that dues paying crewmembers would be advised if there was a clerical error preventing them from being in good standing, and thus preventing them from participation in their union. He tried to find some scrap paper to write this down and "get back to me"
This led him into telling me they are proposing a stand-alone local, and he dis-likes the main local of 747. He went on to explain that we would be attached to ABX's local of 1224, then formulate a local for all of us within 10 mos when the bylaws are written. Just to make sure I understood, I said "You mean we're going to switch from one local to another once bylaws are complete?" He told me yes. I think it's a little late to be finishing bylaws, the foundation to operation of the local when the NMB election is already underway.
I asked about the state of ABX's local, and how they were going to dedicate resources to us when many of their own pilots are facing furlough. He said that 1224 had designated roughly $4 million for a major contingency fund, however, noting that he requested none be earmarked for atlas. So this line of discussion makes me question the solvency of the local if the vast majority of members are to be unemployed. After some to-and-fro about the amount of membership to be left, and the amount of money, he really provided no real guidance on how this soon to be bankrupt local could help in the process.
Addressing personal health issues, Mr. Allen indicated that the service would not, in fact, be the Denver-based service provider that ALPA provides. It would be a function of Harvey Watts (not quite sure what that is). So appearantly the claim of using the same contract service provided by ALPA is false.
I threw out the scenario that there is an incident in a banana republic in some far corner of the planet and I'm incarcerated. I asked what was the plan in that instance. He told me that they would hire a LOCAL lawyer to get you out of jail, then send a go team in a COUPLE of days.
I asked where the legal help would come from. He said from his lawyer. I asked how we knew if this guy was any good. He told me he had worked with this lawyer on the atlasforteamsters project and he's a "good one". (Yes, I have the same dumbfounded look you think I'd have at this point). Even the other atlas crewmember in attendance chuckled and made a remark "that's like saying congressmen suck, except MY congressman".
At that point I had to excuse myself, as I had to go to the schoolhouse.
I tried not to truncate Mr. Allen's answers, and recollect them as completely as I could. Although I may have left out some small talk, I included everything materially relavent to the discussion.
However, his answers fell short, of what I felt, should be any level of detail or completeness that an issue as serious as changing unions demand. There seems to be a serious shortfall of details and procedures this far into the process. If the IBT is elected, the level of disorganization and incompleteness within the proposed organization as represented by Mr. Allen is even further from a basic functioning structure than I even imagined reading their propaganda.
All in all, this reaffirmed my ALPA vote.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

I apologize if there are any errors in my responses but here is my best shot.

The first issue I brought up, as voting in the NMB election was a prior point of discussion, was Good Standing. I let Mr. Allen know that at the prior shop, there was a problem. In between the time a crewmember was hired and the dues checkoff actually started there was usually a gap. However, there was no notice from the IBT, and it was up to the crewmember to call and verify good standing prior to each election. I mentioned that issue usually prevented a significant percentage of votes from being counted for ratification of CBAs

He did not know of any mechanism of ensuring that dues paying crewmembers would be advised if there was a clerical error preventing them from being in good standing, and thus preventing them from participation in their union. He tried to find some scrap paper to write this down and "get back to me"

Good standing will not be an option, closed shop, mandatory dues check-off. Since a union is currently on the premises, all crewmembers standing is known and up to date negating the requirement for any crewmember to call and verify standing for the purpose of voting.

This led him into telling me they are proposing a stand-alone local, and he dis-likes the main local of 747. He went on to explain that we would be attached to ABX's local of 1224, then formulate a local for all of us within 10 mos when the bylaws are written.

It’s not a proposal, Atlas will be forming a standalone Local. Attached is not a term that describes the process. Atlas will be forming from the onset it’s own Local however access to 1224’s resources will be given to the new Atlas local during it’s inception.

Simply put, Atlas will initially adopt and utilize the existing By-laws of 1224 until such time that By-laws can be written which are specific to the new Local. Once those By-laws have been written they will be voted on by the membership for adoption. Once voted on and accepted they will then replace the temporary By-laws of 1224 which were only utilized for the transition for the duration of as stated of approximately 10-12 months.

Just to make sure I understood, I said "You mean we're going to switch from one local to another once bylaws are complete?" He told me yes. I think it's a little late to be finishing bylaws, the foundation to operation of the local when the NMB election is already underway.

To be clear there is no switching from one local to another, the transition is simply a parallel formation of a Local using the resources of another.

I asked about the state of ABX's local, and how they were going to dedicate resources to us when many of their own pilots are facing furlough. He said that 1224 had designated roughly $4 million for a major contingency fund, however, noting that he requested none be earmarked for atlas. So this line of discussion makes me question the solvency of the local if the vast majority of members are to be unemployed. After some to-and-fro about the amount of membership to be left, and the amount of money, he really provided no real guidance on how this soon to be bankrupt local could help in the process.

First off let’s be clear, ABX Local 1224 will not be Bankrupt, not even close. 1224 has several contingency funds in place that allow nearly a decade’s worth of funding to remain even after a complete shut-down, again they are completely funded and running in the black.

Atlas will utilize the staff and attorneys on (staff and on retainer) to provide the initial structure necessary to build and set the Atlas Local in motion. Even if ABX completely shuts down, which based on the latest information is not going to be the case; the ABX Local can remain fully functional for over 9 years even if the entire dues stream stops. If they continue as planned they will remain in the black without having to tap any of their contingency funds. It’s worth noting that they have enough money working for them that interest alone can pay for the staff indefinitely… This is key difference that an IBT local retains their cash resources and can utilize them as they see fit. The money is theirs and they can put it to work as they require.

Atlas will during the first 10-12 months be able to bank nearly all of the dues money taken in. This will allow Atlas to amass sufficient funds to establish multiple funds that can go to work for our Local.

The Local’s resources do not pay for unemployment benefits as you seem to insinuate. If the Local decides to pay for continued Aeromedical coverage this is very inexpensive and amounts to less than $2000 per year for the entire crew force. Life insurance and loss of license coverage as with any union remains the responsibility of the individual crewmember.

Addressing personal health issues, Mr. Allen indicated that the service would not, in fact, be the Denver-based service provider that ALPA provides. It would be a function of Harvey Watts (not quite sure what that is). So appearantly the claim of using the same contract service provided by ALPA is false.

First off, nothing false was ever stated. The Aeromedical provider is simply a contract service and ALPA quite frankly cannot prevent Atlas from contracting with them for services. ALPA loves the fear mongering as if their over-priced plan is the only game in town, IT'S NOT.

Link to those who contract with them for services: http://aviationmedicine.com/content/index.cfm?fuseaction=showContent&contentID=150&navID=150

After reviewing all the information the provider under Harvey-Watt provides the same and in the opinion of outside medical counsel a “higher” level of coverage at a lower price per crewmember. Cost is/was never a consideration in who the provider would be if anything there was deliberation on justifying the higher cost coverage despite certain shortcomings in the coverage’s and medical affiliations. If you need specifics please refer to the www.astlasforteamsters.com website where all documentation is available for reference.

I threw out the scenario that there is an incident in a banana republic in some far corner of the planet and I'm incarcerated. I asked what was the plan in that instance. He told me that they would hire a LOCAL lawyer to get you out of jail, then send a go team in a COUPLE of days.

In the event of an incident or accident, Teamsters launches a “Go-Team” immediately. Typical of any union this takes between 6-12 hours to launch. In the case of the recent accident at Kalitta, a “Go-Team” was in place (on-site) in 12 hours. The “Go-Team” includes various accident investigation personal, Legal team (US and International Attorney’s) to insure all crewmembers are represented.

During the first 24 hours, outside Engineering firms are organized to provide professional assistance directly to the “Go-Team” on site. These firms provide resources that even ALPA has to contract out to for certain areas of expertise.

These firms remain in force throughout the entire investigation and represent the exclusive interests of the crewmembers and Local until all facts are finalized by the NTSB or other organization overseeing the investigation.

Currently if you have an accident with ALPA, they contact a Pilot group and put together “Pilot volunteers” and they offer assistance to the group. When Atlas had its runway incident ALPA/IFALPA never showed up on site to assist the crew…

I asked where the legal help would come from.

Teamsters has an international network of attorney’s on retainer thru multiple networks. These same networks are utilized by the ATA and other aviation organizations. The legal firms in these networks practice law in specific regions and will provide at no cost to the crewmembers counsel during the course of any investigation to fruition. You can be assured that you will have the same level of legal counsel that the Company and manufacturers will have even if it involves criminal action as is often the case (Brazil)…

He said from his lawyer. I asked how we knew if this guy was any good. He told me he had worked with this lawyer on the atlasforteamsters project and he's a "good one". (Yes, I have the same dumbfounded look you think I'd have at this point). Even the other atlas crewmember in attendance chuckled and made a remark "that's like saying congressmen suck, except MY congressman".

The Attorney that has been working with the Atlas For Teamsters group has proven to be an invaluable resource. The fact is Atlas For Teamsters has had the benefit of 24/7 contactibility with them for all legal needs. The legal advice has time and again proven to exceed ANY that has been received from ALPA on ever count. Once again the difference is they work for us not IBT, not ALPA or any other organization. They work exclusively for us and represent our interests alone.

One thing crewmembers need to be clear about is that ALPA legal works for ALPA and has a direct responsibility to “The Association” NOT the crewmember! Under IBT the Attorney staff is directly responsible to YOU the crewmember, they work for you not some “association”…

At that point I had to excuse myself, as I had to go to the schoolhouse.

I tried not to truncate Mr. Allen's answers, and recollect them as completely as I could. Although I may have left out some small talk, I included everything materially relavent to the discussion.
However, his answers fell short, of what I felt, should be any level of detail or completeness that an issue as serious as changing unions demand. There seems to be a serious shortfall of details and procedures this far into the process. If the IBT is elected, the level of disorganization and incompleteness within the proposed organization as represented by Mr. Allen is even further from a basic functioning structure than I even imagined reading their propaganda.
All in all, this reaffirmed my ALPA vote.

A Vote for ALPA may as well be a vote for “No-Representation”
DBW

[FirstStep]

Trashhauler vs DBW

I wish to thank "Trashhauler" for taking the time to express his mis-givings about the IBT. A very important vote is at hand, and the questions and observations that he puts forth are for the most part valid. Valid in that they are the same type of the questions that we all have asked ourselves.
I want to thank "DBW" for answering the aformentioned questions in a thorough and in an impartial way. To post one's observations is one thing, to answer in the depth you have done is a credit to yourself.
There ARE answers to those, and other questions you may all have on the atlasforteamsters website. Everyone who has a dog in this fight has an obligation to be informed of the facts before he casts his vote.
Be informed, and whether you vote for the IBT, or against ALPA, you're on the right track. Thanks.

[layinlow]

Thanks for your clarifications but I think I will stick with ALPA.

[Beaver_Driver]

It is interesting that up until a year ago Bobb hated ALPA. He even gave his union pin back to Prater, poking the union president in the hand in the process. Then Bobb broadcast his disillusionment in a VARS to his members telling them he had given back his union pin.

The Polar group to this day does not use ALPA lawyers, preferring to file all their grievances through an outside legal firm. I wonder why that is? Why would you so ardently support your union yet not avail yourselves of their legal resources? Why would you spend millions of dollars of the unions money to pay for legal counsel that you already have? Could it be that Bobb does not trust ALPA to work in his pilots best interest?

Now all of the sudden Bobb is banging the ALPA drum? My guess is that he figures that whatever the Atlas Pilots want, he wants the opposite. And I am not sure why. Why would one want to be part of a separate five airplane company in today's economy, when you could complete the merger and be part of an almost 40 airplane company with 1000 pilots, a much more robust and extensive route structure, and an association with 1.4 million members.

I was an IBT member 12 years ago. I hated it back then, but was a member of the local 747 which was mismanaged and very impersonal. It shows how screwed up ALPA is that I cannot wait to get rid of them. I think there is much to be said to have your own local, manage your own funds, hire your own staff and lawyers, yet have the full support of the IBT.

[Best Angle]

support

Quoted from Beav's post -

",yet have the full support of the IBT."

Beav and DBW;

Your arguments and your words sound convincing, but they are still only words. I too was a Teamsters member, and the support you speak of was not there. The words were not converted to action. Just ask the ABX guys. They put on this convincing dog and pony show to get the membership, then once you join, you are pretty much on your own. I have seen this show all before. We would be taking a big step backwards.

We understand your feelings towards ALPA, as they have not exactly been kind to us either, but this is no time to get emotional and have the bad feelings affect your vote. This is the time for pure logic and take our path to the future one step at a time. We can always change unions (or even form our own) at a later time if we want. This is not a panic decision.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

Emotion? Thats a laugh. This move to Teamsters is purely based on fact and poor performance by ALPA. It's all about representation.

For the record I was a Teamster, and unless you have been represented by an independant Local then you have nothing to compare the move by Atlas to. Everytime you state how bad IBT was in relation to Local 747 you are comparing apples to oranges.

I hear this time and again how bad it was under Local 747, Atlas is not going to be part of 747 in any way shape or form.

Independant representation under your own Local is beyond anything that ALPA can provide.

Local 747 has become a mini-ALPA, it's too convoluted and with the power struggles they can't fully represent the miriad of crewforces under it's banner. If anything they are the poster child of what will be changed in the next 12 months.

DBW

[Best Angle]

Changes

"If anything they are the poster child of what will be changed in the next 12 months."

DBW

So are the local 747 guys about to dump the Teamsters?

[Beaver_Driver]

Well we now have an opportunity to see if Bobb is really serious about ALPA. Polar just filed yet another grievance. Is Bobb going to put his money where his mouth is and use the ALPA legal team?

While I support Bobb in his efforts for his pilots and FEs, I believe that using my dues to fund an outside attorney, to file a grievance with a remedy that will harm me is well beyond the legal limits of the duty of fair representation required of ALPA by law.

All decisions are based on emotion. Given the facts of a situation, we weigh them and give them a level of credence based on our emotions. In this case the Atlas pilots are angry that ALPA has actively worked against us at every turn.

In the case of the disputes between Polar and Atlas, ALPA should have recused themselves and required each pilot group to assess their members for the costs of their outside attorneys. That happened during the merger talks - yet Polar has continued to get funding from ALPA for their outside attorney to file myriad grievances. And the suggested remedies always seem to come at the expense of the Atlas Pilots or FEs. So in effect, through ALPA, the Atlas pilots are paying to harm themselves. This above all else is driving the move away from ALPA.

The bottom line is that Bobb is being played by ALPA. They don't like him and he doesn't like them. This alone should be reason for the Polar pilots to vote IBT. Couple that with the caste system and politics at ALPA; and the fact that pressure from the many members of the IBT who are not subject to the RLA can be used in negotiation, and one wonders why anyone would want to vote for ALPA.

[unempilot]

Scope

Scope is something you put in your mouth and spit out
I have yet worked for an airline where scope saved anything

[free at last]

scope

Will not even Buy a Cup of water, dream on !!!

[nitty-gritty]

Here is the new Polar grievance in a big pdf file.