So what's up at Polar? (Merged again & again)
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: US
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Picket Line
Websters Collegiate Dictionary defines a picket line is "A person posted by a labor organization at a place of work affected by a strike" also "to enclose fence or fortify with pickets." A legal picket line would be one that the organization actually had a permit for.
The mob in ANC was NOT picketing Polar. They were outside the Marriot Hotel picketing individual Atlas Pilots. The police were called at least once due to their behaviour. They were not professional and they only succeeded in lowering the publics opinion of our profession. I was really sorry to see some brown suits there too -more victims of Bobbbbs lies, miscommunication, and inept chairmanship.
The mob in ANC was NOT picketing Polar. They were outside the Marriot Hotel picketing individual Atlas Pilots. The police were called at least once due to their behaviour. They were not professional and they only succeeded in lowering the publics opinion of our profession. I was really sorry to see some brown suits there too -more victims of Bobbbbs lies, miscommunication, and inept chairmanship.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latest word as of 7 this morning is that the Polar MEC and the company are “close” to a deal. So much for the Polar guys holding out for the big $$. Guess 10 ½ % of something is better than 100% of nothing. I’m glad you “highly educated” boys and girls have finally figured it out.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Websters Collegiate Dictionary defines a picket line is "A person posted by a labor organization at a place of work affected by a strike"
Who's paying for the hotel? You?
Are you paid per deim when you're at your LAYOVER hotel?
When at your LAYOVER hotel, are you ever contacted by the company and if so, are you required to then contact them?
Do you perform company related business at your LAYOVER hotel, such as getting crew rest and so on?
Sounds like a place of work to me......
Maybe you should peel off the BLACKOUT tape from the inside of your crew van as you're being driven though a LEGAL PICKET LINE so you can see what the real world is like...
The stuck freight does not belong to Polar
If it has a Polar sticker, Polar airway code on it or if Polar gets a cut from the revenue it sure is....
You're kinda new at this freight stuff, aint ya?
Sure your name isnt "Airclueless ?
please don't try to destroy the lives of the Atlas pilots who are trying to earn a living in difficult times.
Difficult times?! Last quarter a $15 million dollar PROFIT was had by AAWW. Oh but I guess the profit was made by Polar since Atlas in difficult times .
Kinda irritating when the shoes on the other foot isnt it?
Last edited by miafr8r; 2nd Oct 2005 at 12:07.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's just cut the BS. PO MEC didn't give a hoot about struck cargo. They just wanted to hurt AAWH.
Day one of the strike, Polar CM had accomplished what they wanted, Polar shut down. No Polar planes, no Polar cargo. Yes, there was cargo that Polar MAY have hauled, depending on the freight forwarder. Just like all the passenger carriers fly the struck carriers passengers.
So with Polar shut down, AAWH didn't shut down after seven days, like Polariods hoped. Next step, get Atlas to VIOLATE their contract and do an illegal job action. That didn't work, company found ways around Polars pickets. Why, because pickets were designed for FIXED locations of work. Factories, office buildings, ect. Not entire airports. Northwest pilots walk by ther mechanics pickets all day, no Scabs because they are not supporting the mechanics. Atlas was flying Atlas's planes...simple. If any names that were involed in your roving road rage pickets make a list, ALPA is lost to studitity.
Note thru this, no pickets of Northwest, FedEX, Kallita, or Southern. Hell, UPS pilots stay at the Marriott. No hassle for them. All flying cargo out of ICN, HKG, NRT, and PVG. All Polar ports. Polar didn't care. Why, because they had to hurt AAWH, period.
So admit it, stuck cargo was just an excuse. AAWH was the target and you had to make Atlas an issue or you were toast.
Day one of the strike, Polar CM had accomplished what they wanted, Polar shut down. No Polar planes, no Polar cargo. Yes, there was cargo that Polar MAY have hauled, depending on the freight forwarder. Just like all the passenger carriers fly the struck carriers passengers.
So with Polar shut down, AAWH didn't shut down after seven days, like Polariods hoped. Next step, get Atlas to VIOLATE their contract and do an illegal job action. That didn't work, company found ways around Polars pickets. Why, because pickets were designed for FIXED locations of work. Factories, office buildings, ect. Not entire airports. Northwest pilots walk by ther mechanics pickets all day, no Scabs because they are not supporting the mechanics. Atlas was flying Atlas's planes...simple. If any names that were involed in your roving road rage pickets make a list, ALPA is lost to studitity.
Note thru this, no pickets of Northwest, FedEX, Kallita, or Southern. Hell, UPS pilots stay at the Marriott. No hassle for them. All flying cargo out of ICN, HKG, NRT, and PVG. All Polar ports. Polar didn't care. Why, because they had to hurt AAWH, period.
So admit it, stuck cargo was just an excuse. AAWH was the target and you had to make Atlas an issue or you were toast.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 518
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whose place of business?
If a pilot crosses a picket line at a hotel to become a scab whose job has he stolen? The maid's?
Give me a break.
If a pilot crosses a picket line to fly his own empty airplane from JFK to DOV whose job has he stolen?
Struck freight? The judge ordered Atlas pilots to fly the airplanes and abolished the struck work rules.
It was virtually impossible for any Atlas pilot to commit any transgression unless he walked over and fired up a Polar 747.
Give me break. This is the most absurd work action I've ever seen.
Give me a break.
If a pilot crosses a picket line to fly his own empty airplane from JFK to DOV whose job has he stolen?
Struck freight? The judge ordered Atlas pilots to fly the airplanes and abolished the struck work rules.
It was virtually impossible for any Atlas pilot to commit any transgression unless he walked over and fired up a Polar 747.
Give me break. This is the most absurd work action I've ever seen.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: LAX
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahh, give it a rest, BD. You're gonna pop an artery and lose your medical. What a loss to our profession that would be.
Your hysterical screaming in caps betrays your lack of confidence in your non-position- the mark of a sad, desperate person.
Like your earlier lies about the financial viability of Polar, your pathetic 'Webster's Defense' of sneaking past our picket lines (we were again successful last night at LAX, BTW-thanks in no small part to the gutsy pilots at GTI that support us, along with the fact J an J were too cheap to spring for a chopper or blimp) merely proves to us all what a tool and mouthpiece of JC you are.
Our guys and gals have been pounding the pavement in all sorts of weather, in defiance of J an J and those that do their bidding, in 100% unity every night. So your sneering accusations of 'laziness' and 'incompetence' again show you to be the pathological liar and AAWH office tool that you are.
Why not just accept the inevitable, and go to work in said office? You can be in charge of the JJ AAWH Propaganda Division. You won't need a medical for that, either. BeaverDriverGoebbels. Catchy!
But more than likely you'll continue to fly the line- after all, if we're successful, you can enjoy the fruits of what gutsy PAC and GTI pilots that supported us bring to your next contract. Maybe you'll be home more than 8 days a month, even.
Grow a pair, 'mate'.
TT
Your hysterical screaming in caps betrays your lack of confidence in your non-position- the mark of a sad, desperate person.
Like your earlier lies about the financial viability of Polar, your pathetic 'Webster's Defense' of sneaking past our picket lines (we were again successful last night at LAX, BTW-thanks in no small part to the gutsy pilots at GTI that support us, along with the fact J an J were too cheap to spring for a chopper or blimp) merely proves to us all what a tool and mouthpiece of JC you are.
Our guys and gals have been pounding the pavement in all sorts of weather, in defiance of J an J and those that do their bidding, in 100% unity every night. So your sneering accusations of 'laziness' and 'incompetence' again show you to be the pathological liar and AAWH office tool that you are.
Why not just accept the inevitable, and go to work in said office? You can be in charge of the JJ AAWH Propaganda Division. You won't need a medical for that, either. BeaverDriverGoebbels. Catchy!
But more than likely you'll continue to fly the line- after all, if we're successful, you can enjoy the fruits of what gutsy PAC and GTI pilots that supported us bring to your next contract. Maybe you'll be home more than 8 days a month, even.
Grow a pair, 'mate'.
TT
Just another number
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
miafr8r
You lose a certain credibility by being rude. I do not, and have never, worked for Atlas. As an outsider, I am concerned that the Polar pilots are not ony ruining their own lives but are trying to drag another group down with them.
Regarding the stuck freight, I was only trying to point out what is actually happening behind your backs, while you sit at your computer hurling vitriol.
I first flew a 747 Freighter (G-KILO, LHR-JFK) on May 17th 1981, so kinda new yes.
Airclues
You lose a certain credibility by being rude. I do not, and have never, worked for Atlas. As an outsider, I am concerned that the Polar pilots are not ony ruining their own lives but are trying to drag another group down with them.
Regarding the stuck freight, I was only trying to point out what is actually happening behind your backs, while you sit at your computer hurling vitriol.
You're kinda new to this freight stuff aint ya?
Airclues
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Captain" Airclues,
You sir, lose much more credibility when you dont know what you're talking about, but profess to.
For someone who never worked at Atlas, you sure sound quite protective of them. Is it the cool paint job?
With Atlas having a base in Stanstead, you should be quite offended by them flying YOUR freight for far less money than you earn... Doesnt that bug you that a U.S. airline has crews and aircraft based in Europe?
I suspect you do not and never have worked for a U.S. Part 121 carrier. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm mistaken. If I am, I sincerely apologize.
Having said that, my question to you is how you have a CLUE as to how the RLA (Oh, that's the "Railway Labor Act", it's the rule book on how airline labor contracts are negotiated) works?
The "Struck Freight Rules" were ratified by ALPA and it is a legal document. It was set aside TEMPOARILY by a judge until both labor and management can file breifs arguing the validity of them. That will be heard by a judge on October, 5.
A picket line is considered legal and valid after it is recognized by ALPA and proper permits from local government have been secured.
Hotels are being picketed because, although training locations and airport operation centers are picketed and are considered struck, Atlas pilots are allowing themselves to be taken AROUND the area(s) we have permits for picketing and are still accessing the picketed locations. Their spines have taken on a jelly-like texture. But their SCABING over quite nicely...
WhaleDriver,
Atlas actually IS moving polar freight. A picture says a thousands words....
You lose a certain credibility by being rude.
For someone who never worked at Atlas, you sure sound quite protective of them. Is it the cool paint job?
With Atlas having a base in Stanstead, you should be quite offended by them flying YOUR freight for far less money than you earn... Doesnt that bug you that a U.S. airline has crews and aircraft based in Europe?
I suspect you do not and never have worked for a U.S. Part 121 carrier. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm mistaken. If I am, I sincerely apologize.
Having said that, my question to you is how you have a CLUE as to how the RLA (Oh, that's the "Railway Labor Act", it's the rule book on how airline labor contracts are negotiated) works?
The "Struck Freight Rules" were ratified by ALPA and it is a legal document. It was set aside TEMPOARILY by a judge until both labor and management can file breifs arguing the validity of them. That will be heard by a judge on October, 5.
A picket line is considered legal and valid after it is recognized by ALPA and proper permits from local government have been secured.
Hotels are being picketed because, although training locations and airport operation centers are picketed and are considered struck, Atlas pilots are allowing themselves to be taken AROUND the area(s) we have permits for picketing and are still accessing the picketed locations. Their spines have taken on a jelly-like texture. But their SCABING over quite nicely...
WhaleDriver,
Atlas actually IS moving polar freight. A picture says a thousands words....
Last edited by miafr8r; 2nd Oct 2005 at 12:10.
Just another number
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
miafr8r
You are correct when you say that I don't understand US labor laws, as I have only ever flown G reg aircraft and therefore have no need to. I have also got no reason to be protective of the Atlas pilots. I simply feel that you have chosen a difficult time to pick this fight and should not try to drag another group of fellow aviators down with you, whoever they might be. I'm sure that you disagree and you have every right to do so.
Regarding the stuck freight, I once again do not know the US laws. However, what I do know for a fact is that the 'Polar' freight is being repackaged by various shippers and sent with other carriers (not necessarily Atlas).
I wish you, and your families, well. However, with escalating fuel prices, several airlines in trouble, and pilots being laid off, this is not a good time to be on strike.
Airclues
You are correct when you say that I don't understand US labor laws, as I have only ever flown G reg aircraft and therefore have no need to. I have also got no reason to be protective of the Atlas pilots. I simply feel that you have chosen a difficult time to pick this fight and should not try to drag another group of fellow aviators down with you, whoever they might be. I'm sure that you disagree and you have every right to do so.
Regarding the stuck freight, I once again do not know the US laws. However, what I do know for a fact is that the 'Polar' freight is being repackaged by various shippers and sent with other carriers (not necessarily Atlas).
I wish you, and your families, well. However, with escalating fuel prices, several airlines in trouble, and pilots being laid off, this is not a good time to be on strike.
Airclues
Union Goon
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,097
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airclues,
Thats exactly what the strikers WANT to happen. DUH! you want Polar to be economically squeezed so that they will go back to the negotiating table. That is the WHOLE POINT OF THE PICKET. Good, let the freight go on Northwest or FEDEX or UPS (when they can get around to it, and if it doesn't happen to get "lost" in a warehouse somewhere) The point of a strike is to attemt to squeeze the company you are striking, not to let them to continue going about their business making money in hopes that someone in the board room will feel bad about the poor people on the picket line.
And your excuse "now is not the time." is the same tried and true excuse used by every spineless person who doesn't want to make a stand.
Well guess what, there is never a "GOOD" time to have a strike. They are awfull things that sometimes have to be done. A strike is the union equivelent of a WAR!. Well, guess what there is never a good time to have a war either, but sometimes it has to be done.
Cheers
Wino
However, what I do know for a fact is that the 'Polar' freight is being repackaged by various shippers and sent with other carriers (not necessarily Atlas).
And your excuse "now is not the time." is the same tried and true excuse used by every spineless person who doesn't want to make a stand.
Well guess what, there is never a "GOOD" time to have a strike. They are awfull things that sometimes have to be done. A strike is the union equivelent of a WAR!. Well, guess what there is never a good time to have a war either, but sometimes it has to be done.
Cheers
Wino
Just another number
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wino
I'm getting a little confused (nothing new!). If the Polar strikers didn't mind if their freight was moved then why did Heilhaavir write on 9/18, "The only support we have asked for is not to fly "struck" freight, and so far Fedex, NWA, UAL, Kittyhawk, and Gemini have agreed to it (Atlas as well)"? Why did the union go to court to try to prevent the stuck freight from being moved? If the arguement is only against Polar management, then why are the strikers actively picketing Atlas crews? These are honest questions to which I would appreciate a logical answer. I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose from this sad dispute.
Just like when you go to war, not only do you have to ensure that there is a good chance of victory but you have to make sure that there is something left at the end. I have met many Polar crews downroute and they are great people, but I fear that there might be hard times ahead. I'm not sure whether that is being spineless or realistic.
Airclues
I'm getting a little confused (nothing new!). If the Polar strikers didn't mind if their freight was moved then why did Heilhaavir write on 9/18, "The only support we have asked for is not to fly "struck" freight, and so far Fedex, NWA, UAL, Kittyhawk, and Gemini have agreed to it (Atlas as well)"? Why did the union go to court to try to prevent the stuck freight from being moved? If the arguement is only against Polar management, then why are the strikers actively picketing Atlas crews? These are honest questions to which I would appreciate a logical answer. I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose from this sad dispute.
Just like when you go to war, not only do you have to ensure that there is a good chance of victory but you have to make sure that there is something left at the end. I have met many Polar crews downroute and they are great people, but I fear that there might be hard times ahead. I'm not sure whether that is being spineless or realistic.
Airclues
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airclues,
For the same reason a NWA, FedEX, AA or any other unionized carrier wont cross a another carriers picket line. Exept for NWA pilots and the mechanics, but that another topic.
The reason is to put pressure on the company in any way possible so as to get both parties to the table and negotiate.
In any labor/ management relationship, management always has the upper hand. They have far more financial resources than labor has. Management has more and better paid lawyers to create obstactles for labor when it comes to contract negotiations.
Labor's only recourse is to strike when there's an inpass in negotiations. Labor wants too much compensation (according to management) and management wants more work for less pay from labor (according to labor). The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Some management groups work well with labor (Southwest Airlines). The employees are well compensated and the company still makes a sizable profit.
Other companies treat their employees like the enemy, thus strife between labor and management occurs.
AAWW has spent, wasted and lost more revenue in the past two weeks than if they gave Polar crews everything they wanted and more.
As far as timing goes, there couldnt be a better time for a strike! The busy shipping season is starting and some airlines operate in the red till the last three months of the year. AAWW also posted a $15,000,000.00 profit last quarter while other carriers cant stop bleeding money.
There's my quick and dirty lesson in U.S. airline labor relations. I hope I answered your question.
If the arguement is only against Polar management, then why are the strikers actively picketing Atlas crews?
The reason is to put pressure on the company in any way possible so as to get both parties to the table and negotiate.
In any labor/ management relationship, management always has the upper hand. They have far more financial resources than labor has. Management has more and better paid lawyers to create obstactles for labor when it comes to contract negotiations.
Labor's only recourse is to strike when there's an inpass in negotiations. Labor wants too much compensation (according to management) and management wants more work for less pay from labor (according to labor). The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Some management groups work well with labor (Southwest Airlines). The employees are well compensated and the company still makes a sizable profit.
Other companies treat their employees like the enemy, thus strife between labor and management occurs.
AAWW has spent, wasted and lost more revenue in the past two weeks than if they gave Polar crews everything they wanted and more.
As far as timing goes, there couldnt be a better time for a strike! The busy shipping season is starting and some airlines operate in the red till the last three months of the year. AAWW also posted a $15,000,000.00 profit last quarter while other carriers cant stop bleeding money.
There's my quick and dirty lesson in U.S. airline labor relations. I hope I answered your question.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My guess would be that Atlas Worldwide management is playing the Polar guys (and ALPO) with just the same violin that 'ole Bud Maytag used so successfully at National Airlines so many years ago.
ALPO never really did get the upper had there, and it ain't likely now to get it either.
Some guys need to learn the sad facts all over again, it appears.
Having said this, some never learn.
ALPO never really did get the upper had there, and it ain't likely now to get it either.
Some guys need to learn the sad facts all over again, it appears.
Having said this, some never learn.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Robin Hood country.
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airclues
A piece of freight is to be moved by Polar, it has a Polar airbill and Polar will gain commercially from its transport - only they can't get the job done because their crews are on strike. Polar can try to ship this freight on a different carrier- say FedEx, but it's struck goods and stays that way so long as its carriage results in remuneration for Polar. A unionised carrier will not take this freight so long as it has a Polar airbill.
The customer of course is free to drop Polar and take the freight directly to FedEx for shipment. Polar has now been deprived of commercial gain so the freight is no longer classified as struck goods and will ship on the FedEx system.
The customer gets the freight moved, FedEx gets paid for it and Polar loses all commercial gain from the transaction.
The picket line issue is a little more ambiguous. Polar/Atlas have an incestuous relationship due to having the same holding company. Should the freight fly on Atlas the same coffers are ultimately credited as would be the case if it had flown on Polar as originally scheduled, hence the enthusiasm for Polar's striking aircrew to target Atlas aircrew with picket line action. Both being represented by the same union, ALPA, in theory results in recognition of the picket line and legal protection for personnel not crossing it. Recognition of the picket line by other ALPA carriers can result in various actions to express support, never enough though to please those setting the line up in the first place.
That is the theory. Lawyers and judges get involved along with parochial politics, personal ambition and taking advantage of opportunity. It is a dirty confused business and there will be many unhappy campers bearing grudges over a myriad of issues for years to come.
A piece of freight is to be moved by Polar, it has a Polar airbill and Polar will gain commercially from its transport - only they can't get the job done because their crews are on strike. Polar can try to ship this freight on a different carrier- say FedEx, but it's struck goods and stays that way so long as its carriage results in remuneration for Polar. A unionised carrier will not take this freight so long as it has a Polar airbill.
The customer of course is free to drop Polar and take the freight directly to FedEx for shipment. Polar has now been deprived of commercial gain so the freight is no longer classified as struck goods and will ship on the FedEx system.
The customer gets the freight moved, FedEx gets paid for it and Polar loses all commercial gain from the transaction.
The picket line issue is a little more ambiguous. Polar/Atlas have an incestuous relationship due to having the same holding company. Should the freight fly on Atlas the same coffers are ultimately credited as would be the case if it had flown on Polar as originally scheduled, hence the enthusiasm for Polar's striking aircrew to target Atlas aircrew with picket line action. Both being represented by the same union, ALPA, in theory results in recognition of the picket line and legal protection for personnel not crossing it. Recognition of the picket line by other ALPA carriers can result in various actions to express support, never enough though to please those setting the line up in the first place.
That is the theory. Lawyers and judges get involved along with parochial politics, personal ambition and taking advantage of opportunity. It is a dirty confused business and there will be many unhappy campers bearing grudges over a myriad of issues for years to come.