Hkg Atc
 

What's up with some of these prima donna controllers in HKG. On a few occasions now I've had to make a valid inquiry only to be confronted with a long winded sarcastic reply. We are all profesionals here, and the last thing I need after a 12 hours flight is some p$@^# who thinks he is of great importance belittle me on final. Frankly it is starting to wear thin and so far I've had to bite my toungue and say nothing. Most of the controllers are courteous and profesional, but there are few that need to move on to greener pastures. Anyone with similar experiences?

....let's just say that a particular 'localisation' project has not done HK ATC any favours... As for one or two of the expats...yes, a little less scarcasm towards tired and frustrated aircrew at the end of a long flight would be appreciated. :{

you leave Dennis out of this

I have another question.

Last time I operated out of HKG we requested our clearance from ATC, after switching to ground control we requested start and push and were advised to stand by. Not a problem at all and this happens at most other airports around the globe as well.

After a couple of minutes we called ground control again, stating that we were still standing by for start and push and we received the same response from the ground controller as before. After another couple of minutes we called ground again and asked again for start and push and received the same response as previously. We then asked the controlled to state the reason for the delay, we received the replay „due to traffic“. We then further querried from ground the estimated delay and received no definite answer.

To make it short our next request was „succesfull“ and we were instructed to push and start up. We also received our taxi instruction for the active runway. Approaching the holding position the tower controller informed us to expect 15 minutes delay due to airspace restictions. Here we go.

I ask myself why didn’t neither delivery nor ground informed us accordingly? This would have saved a lot of dicussion on the frequency as well a considerable amount of the more and more expensive liquid used to „flood“ our engines. By the way, we were perfectly on time according to our ATC flightplan.

Dragon 69,
As one who has moved on to colder pastures this is interesting.Belittle you on final?What's the problem after a long flight?Number in TFC,final app spacing?Not being number one?Please be specific.
I don't think you should have a go at my ex collegues,without being exact.
I certainly could raise issues with a certain airline with green tails,that used to schedule 5 pushbacks off E1,2,3,4 and S23 AT THE SAME TIME.A certain pilot for that airline called me a Jerk over the R/T for issuing a 10 min delay for push.Reason you will collide with the a/c behind.W:mad: er
There are lots of timed separations through Bekol and other points which are based on the a/c in front.It isn't like the UK where there is a slot -5/+10 min.It's exactly 10/15 min behind the one in front for the same level.:ugh:
I always thought that we should just get a/c airborne ,and let the levels sort themselves out en-route.Then a certain airline with green tails would bitch about being pegged at FL270.Can't win.If the guys break the rules then they get suspended.You should take this up with CAD senior management, about the Fred Flintstone separations,than have a go at the coal face workers.:ouch:

Are you a bit thick or something?
You asked for start and push 3 times in a 6 minutes and were told to "stand by". Obviously there WAS a reason - not just shear bloody-mindedness.
It sounds like the controller finally got fed up with your constant bleating and after the 4th request thought "stuff you - taxi if you like and go and hold somewhere else".
As Throw a dyce says, many of the restrictions we have are imposed by the Mainland, not us, and change at short notice.

A simple replay like expect "XX minutes delay due to YYYY" would be they way to do it. Remeber other places use so called slots.

Hkg Atc
 

DragQueen 69
We all have our problems. You are at the end of a 12 hour flight – the controller may be at the end of his second successive 10 hour night shift; you have your rostering problems and niggling internal company conflicts – ATC has to contend with a shortage of staff and many bureaucratic government salary and leave restrictions; you have a few more aircraft and have to fly a few more sectors per month – ATC has no extra manpower and has to handle twice the amount of traffic compared to when the airport opened. So what you consider to be a ‘valid inquiry’ may be just one too many unnecessary questions for a controller at the end of a long hard shift, hence you might sometimes get a curt, less than friendly response.
Alatnariver
The No. 1 rule of ATC is ‘The Controller is Always Right’ and the No 2 rule of ATC is ‘You Cannot Please Every Pilot All of the Time’. I can only surmise that you are a newcomer to this part of the Orient, as push-back delays have been a continuous problem here since opening day. A combination of apron design, stand allocation, airspace restrictions and double the traffic means that they are not going to go away. As a guide, before you are ready to push, if the ground frequency is busy, there is a good chance that you will have a delay because of other traffic, if the ground frequency is not very busy, the ground controller may be fully occupied shuffling a fleet of aircraft on tow around the apron, and you will still have a delay !

Both protagonists appear to be suffering from the common aviator’s ailment known as ‘lack of the big picture’. Hong Kong ATC strives to provide the best possible service with the least overall delay to all of out customers , but with the constantly increasing traffic (964 movements in the recent post-typhoon day) the R/T congestion does not permit us to indulge in the cheery banter of old with detailed explanations of the whys and wherefores.
As my ex-colleague Highland Fling says, provide the times and details of the events and I will endevour to provide you with rational reasons/excuses/alibis for the ATC actions.
In the mean time may I suggest you contact your fleet manager and ask him to arrange a visit to ATC for you, or better still, tell him to organise a pilot/controller social gathering so that we can have a civilised discussion of our respective problems without you having to resort to biting off your appendages.

Alatnariver,
In Europe airlines actually ask for an early push and are quite happy to burn fuel at the hold.Pushed back on time.:ok: Even our little airport has a remote hold where they go,and shut down waiting for slots.With slots it's easy.Just aim for earliest airborne time.HK is way different.It's a 1960's way of doing it when DC3's and VC8 ruled the roost.
The problems that CDC had to work out with Mainland restrictions were horrendous.Mainland would block levels,so you ended trying to work out the (procedural/metric level/nothing to do with me) problem on the ground at CLK.Why? Just get them airborne out of HK through Bekol climbing to medium level, and let Mainland sort their own problems.
I explained the Bekol problem,to a colleague in the UK,and he fell off his chair laughing.
HK ATC seems to be tasked with sorting out every other FIR's problems,usually on the ground.You can't run an ATC system with it's hand and feet tied up,and expect Heathrow movement rates.:uhoh:

Throw a Dyce,

I wouldn't be that childish and selfish to complain simply because I wasn't number 1 on the approach or the fact that I had to wait an extra 10 minutes before pushback, nor am I making this a pilot vs controller issue. But I have noticed recently a rise in unwarranted sarcastic remarks. One example is asking the app. controller to see if at 6 miles to touchdown he still wanted us on his freq. After all, and it is hard to believe, yes I know, but controllers are humans too and can forget simple tasks like handing you over to tower. Instead of replying with a yes or no, I was sarcastically told off for making, IMO a valid inquiry, and 2 seconds later he switches us to tower freq. Exactly what was the reason for such a remark, and what did it achieve? Was he announcing to everyone on his freq. how big or small his willy is? I am not exactly sure! There are w:mad: rs on both side of the fence.

Ball Jugler,

The No. 1 rule for pilots is question everything and don't blindly follow atc instructions.

Every employment has its fair share of problems, but I am certainly courteous and profesional towards everyone around me, from ground staff to cabin crew. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, you are free to leave HKG ATC anytime you wish. Just because you are at the end of a long shift doesn't give you the right to be curt to the traffic that you control

BTW when I make an inquiry it is for my benefit not yours, who are you to decide whether my inquiry is valid or not! It's about time that you stepped off your high horse!

My 'lack of the big picture' has kept me alive and incident free for 20+ years, I certainly don't need to prove myself to some p%^&k like you who thinks he is gods gift to ATC!

Wind up artist
 

Dragon 69 doing a bit of fishing are we.:rolleyes:

If not, perhaps the people you are decrying are not the only ones with a "problem". Have you ever visited a control tower / radar room? It is not as easy a job as you may think, they are trying to look after all the aircraft on there frequency not just a personal service for you. Perhaps you got a sarcastic reply because you perhaps came across that way yourself. XXX fully established on the ILS for xxL or R may have been a more diplomatic hint / reminder!:ok:

No I have not been an ATCO but visited the tower and radar room here as well as west drayton in my previous airline and we had a go at controlling in the simulator for departures out of Heathrow. Glad I fly aircraft and do not have to control them.:D

Geriatric Jet Jugler,

I'll skip the fleet manager part of an organized social gathering and go straight for an informal meet at the "Slashers Arms", "Wrist Cutters" whatever they call it these days, how's that sound?

I've been to the tower a couple of times but not recently, a good experience and well recommended.

So anyone got a date they'd like to put forward? what's best for you Geriatric Jet Jugler and your buddies.

I do have one question what's with the chick and her "Welcome back" I know CX thinks flying planes is like a mission to mars but I never thought ATC did. :rolleyes:

How's this

On HK radar heading HK to Kaoshiung. Cleared to FL 370.
We ask "Request amended FL330"
HK Radar - "Standby"

He then comes back snappily "climb amended FL 330, and I would appreciate it if next time you get your company to flight plan you at the level you would actually like."

We didn't even bother responding to that stupid comment.

NB - the controller was not a gweillo.

Usually more than happy with HK ATC (particularly when the gweillos are on)

electricjetjock,

Please read my posts, I never said controlling was easy := . Every job has its challenges, they have theirs and we have ours. The established call is made 12 nm out, the call I made at 5nm was more of a friendly reminder. How can you possibly be more diplomatic than asking him if he wishes us to remain on his frequency :ugh:. Asking a question is not asking for a personalized service, having said that I am not flying my jet to please ATC, we all have our jobs to do, and if this particular controller is too sensitive to a harmless query, than I am afraid he is in the wrong line of work. I am sorry but you can't justify his actions no matter what the excuse. As I have said we are all professionals, and no one likes to be on the receiving end of a sarcastic remark, especially when it is not warranted. And YES I have previously visited a radar room.

I think the majority of pilots opoerating in and more important out of HKG are aware of the "mainland" problem.:ugh:
My point is, as long as there is no other means of flow control, slot allocation or metering, however you would like to call it, why not tell us that we have to wait due to, in this case, outbound traffic or a release from "the mainland" or what so ever.:rolleyes:
To get me right, flying to a lot of odd places around the globe, HKG atc is doing an excelent job, especially when keeping in mind the tiny airspace and the before mentioned "mainland problem". I am not fishing for compliments here, just to get this right.:=
This forum is a good place for ALL participating in aviation to share their opinions and last but not least to ask questions, rise concerns or even make a suggestion. Comunication is verything as we all certainly know.:ok:

I think he's pointing out that CX stopped planning FL370 some years ago due to these issues and our F-PLNs have a note to the effect of "Planned FL330 due ATC" and it's about time other carries started it, to help the worsening conditions in the HK FIR.

Not an excuse for sarcasm on r/t, but morale in HK ATC is at the rock bottom right now.
Everyone, not just expats is unhappy with the situation the government has put us in.
Salary is back to before handover (most of us less than Cathay housing allowance :yuk: ), some have to do radar but not get paid for it:mad: . Allowances cut and continuous overtime (unpaid) is ongoing. Thousands of hours all together and seems they will have no chance to pay it back. Our leave roster put on the board today. In December only one, yes ONE, approach controller got leave, only ONE enroute controller got leave and 3 lucky people in the tower got leaves. Standby for mutiny!
Still traffic grows every month and AA wants more slots. Goverment has no forward thinking a few years back - froze recrutment, pay, training, force 10 expats to leave each year. Now they expect miracles.
Sorry to you guys if it means a lot more holding or delay at the gate but we are just as sick of it as you.
"Welcome Back" :ok:

Aerial Prima Donnas
 

SuzieWong: You are all doing a fantastic job, don't take it personal when a few tired, fatigued, aerial prima donnas get snappy over the radio.

Some people behind the wheel will always feel as if they are the only airplane in the sky. ...It's not just a problem confined to HKG. :p

No Glueball, you are wrong. We are not "all" doing a fantastic job, some definitely make things hard, not just for you drivers, but for some of us who have to work with these people. It is the same with your lot, there are great people to fly with, and there are (a small number of) a***holes who make life unpleasant, there always has been and always will be. The advantage that you have, is that if you are with a colleague who thinks that his (or her) middle name is Orville Wright, the chances are, is that you will say goodbye at the end of your flight, and you may not see them again. Not us, we have a far more intensively "group" type situation where by you can be assured that "Mr Difficult" today will be back at the workplace as "Mr Difficult" tomorrow, and still being the same unhelpful self. This applies equally to expats and locals. It would be good to have more social interaction between the two groups (pilot/ATC), but you know big cities, at the end of the day, one just wants to get home.

... but at least we, pilots and atc started talking here, better than nothing. We know far too less of each other in respect to our jobs.

After 15 hours droning back from LA, a pretty voice saying "welcome back" is fantastic... long may it continue...............:D

Yeah, I like his voice too...

I found in HK that ATC management would always back the pilot rather than the controller.I had a case where a Dynasty just wouldn't get off the runway.It missed 3 high speed turnoffs at snail pace,nearly causing a go-around and then got on the wrong taxiway.I stopped him on the taxiway to let him get his bearing.The pilot then rang in to complain about me being rude,and ATC management were backing him (in local lingo of course).I nearly got the phone,and it would have made Billy Connolly look like saint.Lucky pilot.
Maybe that's why there are some nippy comments around.It's the controllers only chance.CAD management didn't back their controllers at all.:ugh:

:oh: hahaha ... It is a funny and both interesting discussion indeed! Maybe sometimes people get a little bit snappy after long hours of duty (both pilots and ATC controllers). Shouldn't be like that but it happens.

If we have a delay for push-back I would appreciate ATC (time permitting) to tell me the reason and maybe an estimate. We have passengers on the aicraft as well and we would like to inform them as well. But, actually IMHO I think Hong Kong ATC provides a very good service despite the problems descriped by Suzy.

A funny thing is that for example in Shanghai where pushback delays are pretty common (up to 2 hours somtimes) the controllers always gives you the reason:

1) Due to seppalation;
2) Due to westwictions;
3) Due to ...................... standby ..... :}

It is always one of these three so no need to ask anymore. :ugh:

Talking about these experiences in mainland China. I have a question for any HKG controller on this board.

I recognize and read here that many of the problems in HKG airspace are caused by mainland China restrictions. However, when flying in Mainland China these restrictions only seem to apply for "foreign" companies. Many times I have been at the holding point at Chinese airport waiting and seeing chinese aircraft (pushed back long times after us) passing us and taking off from an earlier intersection going to the same area as our flight.

Apparantly there is no formal or political way to solve these problems. What about imposing the same policy to chinese aircraft as foreign aircraft suffer in mainland China? Maybe that solves or forces a solution to this problem? :confused:

Hi Viper (you weren't in "Top Gun" by any chance were you?).
Firstly, it is a fine line that one draws as to whether or not one tells an aircraft an expected push back time, as (a) we often give a time, and then the whole scenario is changed by our friends "up there", (2) often when we advise an aircraft who is "language challenged" of an expectation, then some times they will just go and push anyway, (3) it becomes a balancing act as to workload/time availability as to whether or not it is worthwhile giving expectations from our side of things. That may sound pathetic, but at 8.45 at night when ground is on combine and we are up to our armpits in towing aircraft around (often unnecessarily) at the airlines behest, and there are continuous arrivals arriving at "full bays", and everyone in the World wants a departure push back at the same time from adjacent bays...well it aint fun.

As to the people working in the Radar, let me assure you guys that after a couple of hours working approach or departures when it is busy and especially if there are lot's of weather deviations thrown in to boot, well that aint pretty either. Then there's a bit of a break and you come back in and do it all again. As "Dycey" says, you will get no support or back up from management, both at the intermediate level (shift supervisors) or higher up the chain. Anything that goes pear shaped is "your fault". Sure it can be argued, well "it's a democracy....why don't you walk?" well, not quite so easy. Many of the expats gave up a lot of security to come here, and have made significant family commitments to stay on...for the time being, so interesting times ahead if many more depart. When you consider that my overall package (salary and Accom. Allow) is about 25% lower than what it was 5 years ago.....

As far as your suggestion that we start to take things out on our airline friends from up North, you gotta be joking. The whole scenario here is bending over and doing whatever the people up there say. Some bright spark North of here decided recently that it would be a good idea if they implimented 10mins flow control between aircraft (regardless of level) going up A461 to Europe each night between 11 and 12.30. It just so happens that we have up to 10 departures going that way within about a 60 minute period, so one doesn't have to be Pythagoras to figure out where these departures have to be delayed. Instead of our management saying "stiff, we will send them as per the agreed values", we put up with it, and you guys have to take the consequences.

It's a cultural thing, around here the mainland is No 1 and we unfortunately have to kow tow to a certain extent. I do sympathise with Dragon 69, there are people who will cause a bit of angst, I don't know the answer, well, I do but this is supposed to be polite here, at least as someone else pointed out on this thread, there is some fairly open discussion taking place.

Bedder,
In 5.5 years my pay has increased by 30% so that's a swing of about 55%.Maybe Dragon 69 has a point and you guys should consider joining the real world again.Leave CAD in a real pickle.CPA's vast profit flushed down the Fragrant Harbour.:D
If they tried that pay cut stunt here,all British airlines would be bankrupt.The strike would have been devastating.:}

Hi Bedder,

Actually I applied for this position in the Top Gun movie but unfortunately I failed the selection. After trying a lot of other things the only job that worked out was to be a pilot ... :}

Thanks for your reply ... it makes some of the things going on here more clear. Just to make sure we do not have a misunderstanding: I find it a relief to get back into HKG airspace after a flight in mainland China. Especially when the weather is bad and a lot of stuff is going on! I can remember just recently the weather in the HKG area causing everybody to divert and I must say almost everything is possible. So no complaints at all!

I am surprised (and a little bit shocked) by hearing your story. I did not realize that our "friends" from the North are completely in controll of whatever is going on in HKG airspace (including the terms and conditions at HKG ATC). Maybe I should have know better. :eek:

Cheers and keep up the good work!

Good to hear we get support from many pilots here.

Bedder
All ATC are having it tough at the moment but at least you expats can more easliy stand up to management to demand your rights because you are already at the top.
We hear the other voice which tells us that our career prospects will not be good if we don't come in on days off. What do we get? No overtime payment, just TOIL.
You notice nearly all leave has gone to expats because they have to give it to you but some of us have more than 100 days owing and no chance of getting it for a long time.
How can management get out of this? Last time they were lucky with SARS when they owe us more than 10000 hours and made us take leave.
This time we can't get it even if we want it!
Time for action.

I thought they got rid of "Mr Difficult" last month.:E

Yeah Suzie, I couldn't agree more. The locals are doing it much tougher than the expats, we tend to get away with things that the locals don't. The pay rates for junior ATCO's is pathetic. What to do?

Suzie & Co,
Good to see your inputs here. Always a pleasure to get back in HKG airspace despite the odd grumpy sod. Yes, I like being"Welcome Home'd". Regards to whomever it is.

Good luck with pay and leave, we need it as much as you!!;)

As for the radio congestion, would it be easier if we could fly the 07L/R approaches as published from LIMES/SOKOE instead of radar vector? I would guess that 90% of the aircraft going into CLK are FMS/GPS equipped, so no problem with going off track. Just tell them to keep X-nm TCAS seperation and follow the published speed control. Anyone going out of line will be told to go-around. The new Director fq don't seem to improve on the radio congestion problem, just more fq change during a busy approach period. :confused: With that said, HKG ATC is still head and shoulder above the rest of Asia, keep up the good work! :ok:

Hkg Atc
 

Dixi,
Don't quite get your point here.The reason for having a Fin/Director is to spread the overall R/T burdon.For Fin to be working properly then you need 5 to 6 a/c on frequency at all time.He/She then just nails speeds,heading,spacing.But it will be a busy frequency when you are going for min vortex,or 3 miles.
Also by introducing reduced spacing,then there are more a/c in there,so R/T stays high.Best way is stick to standard R/T,listen out so nothing needs repeated,and change frequency WHEN TOLD.
When doing Fin here,I operate as you get an instruction once and I don't want to repeat it.You can lose separation very quickly with dosy pilots,or ones that want to do there own thing.:cool:
TCAS is not an ATC separation tool.Just to save your neck when we screw up!

Rodney ...10min separation from china through Dotmi three overfliers at FL330 release you for your planned level FL370 and then you can't make it...now we need to force a twenty minute gap between the overfliers that may be airborne from Sydney etc.
The other night 4 long haul flights through Noman to sydney Melbourne etc released with separation according to flight planned or requested FL ie FL330,FL370,FL330 and FL370 second Cathay can't make his level now they end up 330 290 270 370 sorry number three but number 2 didnt let us know till airborne. It really does help our planning if you can reach the level flight planned or let us know b4 pushback...never mind not making your level restriction by DOFIN which is sooo dangerous
Moral is low and tensions are mounting...be warned..though we will try to keep our sense of humour...

Most definitely they do not pay you enough. On a good relaxed day we get polite friendly control and advice. On a trough line day with Cb's all over with an evening complex, we get some of the finest controlling in the world.

Working in a muliti-cultural environment with variable RT competencies from the aircraft, you keep the stuff together. At ELATO or SIERRA when I change frequency I know I am not only home, but in safe hands.

Yes there will always be tensions with individuals on both ends of the RT. Live with it, humour them at both ends and remember that only pilots apologise, ATC does not. It is the protocol of aviation since Pontious. Live with that or go chicken farming.

Hong Kong does not do it often but sometimes a phone call afterwards to the duty oficer is a very good way of calming the frustrations of missed communications on arrival. I've done it a couple of times and been humbled by my simplistic problem being explained as part of their total problem.

And yes, you can welcome me back anytime. I think you begin to recognise our voices as we learn to recognise yours in ATC.

Dear jugler,

I was never arguing why at 6/5 miles I was still on app. frequency, I was merely making an inquiry to make certain he hadn't forgotten to switch us over, and please note that director frequency was not being used at the time. I wholeheartedly understand that there could be a number of reasons why I was left on app. freq. with 6/5 miles to touchdown, but it is not the norm. I would rather make an inquiry at 6/5 miles rather than 4/3 miles. My whole point was that his reply was out of line and unwarranted, nothing more nothing less, a more diplomatic reply would have gotten the message across. I do not pretend to be one of the Wright brothers, nor do I believe that I am the only traffic in HKG airspace, but I also shouldn't feel that I need to submit my inquiries to a review board before transmitting. I think the majority of us are experienced enough to differentiate between necessary and unnecessary queries, especially during peak periods.

Since you brought up the 150 kts + at 5 miles ie. 1500', and please understand that I am bringing this point as a discussion only. I think it is fair to say that the majority do not adhere to that. Operationally, we have to be at approach speed with thrust above idle by 1000', or the approach is deemed to be unstable. A light airbus will have an approach speed of around 135kts. Factor in a light tailwind, such has been the case on numerous occasions recently, and unless you start slowing the airplane from 180 kts at 8 miles, there will be a good chance that you will not achieve the required stable approach criteria. My whole point here is that from our perspective, at 5 miles, despite any speed control, most of us are already closer to approach speed. This is open for discussion and I would like to hear from others regarding the speed control at 5 miles on 25 and 07. Also, in our JEP page 10-4, it states " The published speed restrictions for the final approach segment are applicable for the Continuous Descent Approach procedure" Hence, if you are not on a CDA procedure, and have been cleared the procedural ILS, according to Mr. Jep you are not required to adhere to the published speed restrictions on final. Any thoughts from aircrew and controllers?

Here is some good gen I received recently.

from Hong Kong Air Traffic Management standards section.

FL 130 at MELON/MANGO

Q: When initially cleared to be FL 130 at MELON/MANGO, then approaching these points ATC clears the aircraft to an altitude, do I still have to adhere to the FL 130 restriction?

A: No. Clearance to an altitude cancels previous restrictions, unless specifically stated otherwise by ATC.



8000FT at TD/TH

Q: When on approach to RWY 25, do I have to cross TD/TH at 8000FT?

A: No. This is a procedural restriction only, ATC clearance to an altitude lower than 8000FT automatically cancels this restriction.



SPEED CONTROL

Q 1: When ATC clears you for high speed through MELON/MANGO, does the 250KTS below FL110 still apply?

A 1: No. The high speed clearance applies until further advised by ATC.


Q 2: When cleared high speed do the final approach speed controls still apply?


A 2: Yes. As at any busy airport, strict adherence to final approach speed controls is essential, to allow ATC to maximize runway usage.

This is the stuff I like to find out from ATC, so looking forward to an informal beer!

For me, it's joy to come back to hong kong airspace at the end of a few days of regional flying.
I really do think you guys working the radar and the tower are the best in asia.

But now a question: what is the longest ammount of time a controller could be on duty?

keep up the good work:D