OK.. No, I wasn't NATS trained, only for radar. I was doing it long before NATS, overseas too! I was just pointing out, following some fairly hysterical ranting, that the transfer to the tower can be well inside 6nm and is entirely at the discretion of the controller. If that doesn't apply in HK I apologise.

I have to say that it really doesn't matter to me if I'm on radar to 4-5 miles.
l
I have had unhelpful controling and great controling in HKG.

I'm also embarrassed by colleagues and other pilots requesting WX avoidence on Approach control when the controller is obviously overworked/stretched and there isn't a cloud over 10,000' in the area!

I'm always happy to hear HKG controlers they mostly rank well with european airports and beat the USA.

If I have a peeve its having to wait/delay for freighters to land on 07R when 07L is for landings for everyone else.:ok:

p.s. I don't think I can spell.

HD,
The system of transferring a/c to Tower is the same for HK and LL.I think that the point about the controller being ratty has caused some of the background info to come up.Also the locals are petrified of management,and a lot of gweilos don't want to rock the boat:oh: .If you got a hint of a black mark then you were out.
Busy B,
I got carpeted for landing a CPA inbound for E4 on 07R at 00.30.The second Heathrow was waiting for connecting pax.Everyone said thanks very much.Following day got well bollocked by CAD := cos 07L is landing runway.:ugh: Why? god knows 10 bucks.
It's the whole mind set of CAD management with their brains frozen onto the Kai Tak checker board that is causing issues.They are total dinosaurs.
Ps I canny spell neither.

For Busy B, here are the guidlines for runway arrival usage, when both runways are available (most of the time).
Between 12.30pm and 2000 (local) all aircraft (and this should be reflected on the ATIS) are to land on the North runway (07L or 25R). Outside of the above hours, Freighters, BAC (business aircraft) and GFS (2 Jetstreams) will normally be directed to the South runway (07R & 25L). During the first period above, at the discretion of AMS (Aerodrome Movements South - 118.4), cargo etc may be offered the South runway if it is felt that departures will not be unduly affected/delayed. During the "outside of the above hours", then AMS (or APP for that matter) may enforce individual or groups of freigters etc to land on the North.
The disadvantages for APP is that successive South landers need to be sequenced at least 8 NM in trail, where as this is not the case to the North. Freighters tend to arrive in groups, so the 8 NM issue does raise it's head. The disadvantages for the Tower with South landers is that many aircraft these days have time critical departure slots, and one or more landers on the South can stuff things up. Another disadvantage for the Tower during the "first" period, is the lengthy taxi back to South side parking and the subsequent need to cross 07R/25L.

It is purely a judgement call as to whether or not a decision will be made to alter the normal landing runway for freighter etc aircraft. The call is normally made by AMS and it needs to be done some 10 to 15 minutes ahead of landing time. this means that the AMS needs to have a fairly healthy idea of potential departures (particularly on 25L as the taxi distances are much shorter).

Maybe Dragon69 might like to take some of this onboard. I assume from his posts that he is a KA freighter driver. It might give him good ammo for his next beef.

[quote=Dragon69;2862568]

Quote....Your primary task as APP. controller is to vector airplanes onto the localizer with the appropriate spacing.

You fly the aircraft captain and we will get you to the parking bay..??

8miles..7miles..6miles..5miles.. 4miles whatever...we will switch you when WE decide it is appropriate and not b4....though the ball is dropped occasionally and a heads up call should not be snarled at..Simply
"69 5 miles on the localiser" would be perfect.

Thanks for the info Bedder,

A couple of items I still don't understand.


"Another disadvantage for the Tower during the "first" period, is the lengthy taxi back to South side parking and the subsequent need to cross 07R/25L.

It is purely a judgement call as to whether or not a decision will be made to alter the normal landing runway for freighter etc aircraft. The call is normally made by AMS and it needs to be done some 10 to 15 minutes ahead of landing time."

I don't see that as a disadvantage for ATC just the aircraft, but he's got to his destination and should not take preference over a departure purely for a shorter taxi.

If you planned 15 mins ahead and then 5 mins before landing find that he's holding up departures surely some of the time you can change him back to the other rwy. I've certainly experienced 5 aircraft waiting to depart whilst a freighter lands on the south and no-one within 8 miles on the north.:confused:

Coincidence?
 

Perhaps coincidence - perhaps not - but HK ATC has been running on rails all week.
Congrats to all involved in the dramatic recent improvement in/around HK.
ATC'ers and pilots alike...its been sharp and snappy. The level of mutual respect, explanation (where able) and "requests" (rather than can I possibly, maybe try to err...) has been fantastic.

Its good to talk!

Hi BusyB, I didn't explain myself very well. The disadvantage to the tower is that it may increase workload for the ground controller...just one more extra mouth to feed as the taxying from a North arrival back to the freight area involves maybe 6 odd tranmissions and some 10 minutes of taxying compared to one possibly two transmissions after a South runway landing. The freighter becomes a longer part of the traffic scene during the lengthy taxi back, instead of a quick quiet death. Also the South landing freighter does not have to cross an (at times busy) active runway.

Without going into all the sequencing requirements for arrivals, generally arrivals on to the same runway (if not being used simultaneously for departures) are planned at either 5NM or min wake turb, and in (let's call it reasonable wx conditions) we can sequence staggered arrivals between North and South 3NM apart. providing the two Aerodrome Controllers can visually separate the arrivals. So, if we had no departures at all, the most efficient way to run the arrivals would be North, South, North, South etc. Well, we also have departures to consider, and hence the system is basically run as I described last night. It has it's faults at times, I agree, but as an overall way of getting the most departures into the air along with the most arrivals on to the ground, I would think that we are fairly close to the mark. Generally if we have two successive arrivals to a runway that is also being used for departures, the desired sequencing space is 8NM to allow the release of a departure between the two arrivals. This happens with two cargo aircraft on the South runway (two rwys available), or as we are often on RWY07L only from around midnight till 9am the following morning, then all arrivals will normally be spaced to allow departures off the North runway. Bearing in mind that the bulk of the departures between 11pm at night and 12.30am are very heavy long haul, I can assure you that we need every bit of 8NM as an inter-arrival spacing.

In relation to your observation that at times you are disadvantaged as a departing aircraft, because of arriving freighters, well, it is probably outside of the "all on the North" period (from 1230pm local to 2000). We have a system in place, and I am not the one about to try and change it. The only people that will be able (maybe) to get that to happen are the users, ie you and your companies. If the operators through here really want all of the freighters landing all of the time on the North runway, well you will need to poll the Airport Authority and CAD to have the system changed. I can bet you anything you like that the two major operators through here, with both Pax and freighter aircraft would say "bugger off". It is interesting that I was talking to a KA captain recently, and he said to me "If I am parking on the South apron, why can't I land on the South runway?" Unfortunately the "me only" syndrome is alive and well!

The bit about offering a runway change to an arriving freighter being some 10 to 15 mins before landing is purely a curtesy. We do have some sensitivities re not changing landing runways once aircraft are too close to landing. If everyone coming in here was a space cadet and the ace of the base, then it might be a bit more easy to throw things around, however this is not the case. Where do we draw the line? At times it can be a bit conservative, but I guess we have a "weakest link in the chain" that we have to pander to at times.

Repost
 

In case NOMAN missed this post .....:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
We hate this DEPT.:eek: :eek: :eek:

economy cruise
 

How can an airline expect to fly around busy airspace at Mach.72 and not expect to get in everybodies way. I know fuel is expensive etc etc but unless all airlines agree to fly slow then the the only airline that is flying slow will not be getting short cuts, and could more times than not find himself being put to the back of the que ??

Any chance a few of you drivers can complain to you operations or higher up the food chain about all the similar callsigns on frequency..incidents as a result of this problem are becomming a weekly occurence ...CPA828 and CPA 888 a regular.
Thanks

Snowball effect
 

mr plot

I don't know where you get your information from, but please be advised that an ATCO II in MPS 44B ears 74,725 HKD per month - a far cry from the 100,000 mentioned by you. Please don't tell me you include Accomodation Allowance - not everybody is lucky enough to get that. The point I wanted to make was that our salary has been static for a decade and a change is not likely although the cost of living is going up. Agree?

The controller mentioned in the mentioned "TOIL-event" was allowed to leave after a busy and tiring 2 hour-session on Ground. He was due for a "late break" (maximum 60 minutes) 30 minutes later. 30 minutes? Big deal!

Surely, a high-ranking manager has more important matters to attend to than such petty stuff. Like making sure the troops are happy and that the traffic flows smoothly.

Get your facts right, pal!

When Boss Norman took over here a few years ago, the prevailing feeling was that he was a welcomed breath of fresh air and a desperately needed change from his predecessor whose life ambition seemed to be having his photograph taken as often as possible and in as many places as possible. A figurehead from a remote planet. People's feelings of expextations grew when Boss Norman was quoted in the press, saying we needed more controllers. Sadly, however, nothing much has happened since then. Many controllers have left (one wonders why!) and the trainees take longer-than-expected time to check out. One of the main reasons for the dragged-out training is that the supervisors usual quick fix is to take a trainee off training to cover for sick leave. This may work in the short term, but there is a high price to pay for the trainees. Their training is interrupted and goes on far too long. On top of this, the trainees are often called upon to work on their days off. During their training period they need all the rest they can get and working on their days off is thus very counterproductive. Consequently, the trainees are often tired - even on the first day of their "new" training cycle - and this naturally can be detected in their performance.

The thing in HK ATC is that nobody wants to address the real problems which are lack of staff in combination with bureaucratic, petty and old-fashioned management who do not have even the slightest idea how to run a busy ATC unit. Additionally, a new control center is on the drawing board requiring even more staff.

In Hong Kong ATC the messenger can expect to be shot, so the individual supervisors simply want to survive their shifts rather than create any waves. Nobody is prepared to stick out their necks by imposing restrictions on traffic due to shortage of staff or even telling Boss Norman (or better still: LEGCO!) that more staff is urgently needed.

The size of the snowball is growing every day: the number of people wanting leave, but not getting it gets bigger constantly, people generally suffer from fatigue and tend to call in sick more often than before, an increasing number of local (S)ATCOs have an "overflowing leave balance" and their 1,5 - 3 days of well-deserved leave disappers into thin air every month, causing a very strong feeling of anger and thirst for revenge. Does Boss Norman know the real situation here? My feeling is that he is "protected" from the truth, because nobody wants to be the messenger.

What would happen if the press were made aware of just how disastrous the whole situation is in HK ATC? Somehow, I think that this is the only way things will change for the better. One thing is for sure: as long as things appear to run on rails nothing will change. Has the time come to involve the press?

RRSM is right .... :D :D
We should tell the Director (actually Government) and then .... THE PRESS ....
We work very hard and AAHK got all credit .... get payrise, bonus, etc.
What do we get ...? NOTHING:ugh:
We junior guys suffer the most .... we always rostered the busiest times, get shorter breaks and less early go .... always get in trouble with supervisor even when do nothing wrong!!!:yuk: :yuk:

I must admit that I found the standard of Watch Management pretty dire in HK.:uhoh: Our one used to play on the computer all day in the VCR,while the Gweilos ran the watch.Or they were little Hitlers,who thought that Kai Tak was the greatest thing since sliced Congee.They wouldn't last 5 minutes in the UK.
Also their attitude to junior controllers would get them sacked in the UK.Pure discrimination and harassement.
The CAD copied some aspects of the the UK SCRATCOH,but forgot about an important aspect.TIME OFF.They hate the 10 day cycle,and expect people to come in on days off,for the glory I guess.Sorry can't be more positive here,but I think you guys need to take some serious personal roster adjustments.:ok: :oh:
Ps Norman,you DO read these posts.You can't silence me.I left( but I paid my tax!):} :bored:

Time for a letter to the SCMP about decreased safety standards due to fatigue and poor management methinks!! That will get someone's attention!

:= := Just heard they are planning to make people pay back days they take sick leave - unbelievable!!!:yuk: :yuk:

Well I owe quite a few.Come and get me.:} :}
How about the days that were robbed because they lost TOIL records?
Just as well I kept records.Come on guys they are robbing you blind.:rolleyes::*

Dyce,
This is very interesting!!! Are you saying that management simply did not give you the TOIL they were supposed to do? How much did they rob you of? How many guys were cheated? Did you guys ever consider taking legal action against the department? Surely, this should be categorized as theft? Seems that the socalled management are nothing but a bunch of thieves!!!

RRSM,
They robbed just over 100 hours from me.It was when the change over from Kai Tak to CLK and we were in Gweilo Airlines.In July I was about 0 hours,and by Sept I was -100.:eek:
It wasn't til I was leaving and they wanted the 100 hours back that the problem started.I asked them to prove the hours.''Cannot'' only keep TOIL records for 3 months.Oh really,but how did I go from 0 to -100 in 4 weeks? They said that they didn't have records.Well I did and kept them.
It transpired that they keep all the TOIL records,but the records covering 2 months around Kai Tak/CLK changeover were lost.Computer wiped the lot.:mad: :eek: So we didn't exist.Sciving for 12 days?:= :D
They took my records as proof and gave me back 64 hours,took me off the 5on 1 off punishment roster,and never said sorry.
The thing that made me mad was, we were doing extra shifts to get their Airport open,told when to go on leave etc,and this is how they said thanks.F:mad: off.
Legal action? Just wanted to get on the plane home.It took them nearly 2 years to give my MPF back.It wasn't worth that much,so I celebrated by buying a Ride on Lawnmower,to remember HK.:D :ok:

Hello Kitty ATC
 

Dyce,
So I guess you were not the only one robbed? I bet the rest of the lads never got their hours and have now worked 100 hours for free. It is called stealing where I come from and is criminal.

Nothing has changed, though. People who get leave (very few & lucky ones these days) return to work only to see their TOIL balance has dropped around 20 hours during their leave. Why? Too hard to explain here, but management want to have their cake and eat it. Everything works in their favor. Taking legal action will be "too hard". Want a sticker for you lawnmower to remind you of Hello Kitty ATC?

RRSM,
Yes I guess thats right,although it probably only affects those in Gweilo Airlines at that time.I know that several of my collegues also had -100 hours suddenly,but I could only look after my own case,and keep a careful note of my hours.Also several people that left were put on punishment roster of 5 on 1 off to recover the time.I stated that if I had an incident working that S:mad: t,I would drag CAD management publically with me.
However I recovered the time anyway over year 3, with several personal roster adjustments,but I was determined not to let them away with it.
PS,
A sticker would be great.This mower is sponsored by Hello Kitty and Coltalin for ultimate Hay fever relief.:ok:

To all the HK ATC controllers I'm sorry to hear that the working conditions are so bad for you at the moment. I hope that a resolution will soon be found but somehow I doubt it .

I would just like to say a big thanks for keeping us all safe for many years. As to the odd snippy comment well they often relieve tension and provide some much needed humour. I've been on the receiving end of a few, most of them not called for but I just happened to make a call immediately following another aircraft who has just ticked the controller off and I ended up as the obvious target . Hey we are all grown ups, let it go it isn't worth getting upset about.

Approaching in bad weather the radio sounds like a continuous steam of instructions with aircraft going in all directions . I for one would hate to keep a mental picture of that many moving objects. So I take my hat off to all of you.

One point that I would appreciate an answer to, is when requesting descent inbound from the East why is it not possible to simply add a height /speed restriction to the descent clearance. This would stop the requirement to go back to ATC and seek clarification.
If the weather is bad and FL 150/130 with 250KTS is required at MANGO MELON simply add it to the ATIS then every aircraft can plan accordingly.

Your thoughts or comments are welcome, but I would like you to know that you are appreciated by the majority of the pilot fraternity.

Oriental,
Not sure if it's in the ATIS vocabulary.Also ATIS are generally for airfield conditions and not medium level speed /approach procedures.
Are Sigmets not issued if the wx is very bad.:confused:

:ok: Thanks for your nice comments ... We try to provide good service even though working conditions are terrible .... 1997 pay, poor roster, poor management, no leave, low morale, mimimum rest, poor instructors, slow training, etc:ugh: :ugh: . And Airport Authority still want more.:yuk: ... no thanks!:= := :=
It could help if you pilots and airlines can write to CAD and pressure them to improve ..... Again, it may not be as safe to fly if conditions are worst and worst.

4 :}

Hi Oriental,
To answer your question re heights and speeds at the metering fixes (MELON & MANGO to you). Let's start with the "biggie" - speed. The problem is that traffic is being sequenced centrally, by the flow controller (the only guy with the "big picture"), and all the information that the en-route controller gets (and needs) is the spacing that he is required to provide at the metering fixes to achieve a smooth flow, filling all the gaps, to ensure that we can punch in 29 arrivals an hour to the runway 'til the cows come home. And there are 3 en-route controllers speeding you up/ slowing you down. So just remember that the guy you are speaking to (the en-route controller) can't give you a detailed reason why you are being slowed/speeded, except that he is one of three guys providing the best service to get the most aircraft on the ground in the shortest possible time. It doesn't matter what airline you are. (Unless you have rung me personally to let me know that I have been given a complimentary upgrade to first class, for life. Then, of course, you will always be number one, but that will have to remain between you and me - OK?)
Anyway, back to reality. Speed control. It's like you driving a car and approaching a roundabout. You see a gap in the traffic approaching on your left/right and you either have to speed up/slow down (or if you're a wuss, stop) to get yourself into that gap. And as you know, I'm sure, if you speed up to beat that guy on your left/right, as soon as you've beaten him you have to slow down to the speed everyone else (the wusses) are doing or vice versa. Well guess what, it's no different just 'cause you're in a plane. We're very simple souls here and we don't want to introduce too many new concepts, mainly 'cause it'd be too hard for us, as well as you, and we don't get paid enough to be sophisticated!
So, that's speed control sorted. So I don't expect any more questions on that - OK. Now height. That's a slightly different kettle of fish. It really all boils down to the runway in use. And as I'm sure you all know, RWY25 is the runway that's going to be the predominant runway in use at CLK. No? - Well that's what all our procedures are based around. And that's based on the extensive research carried out by CAD before we even moved to CLK. So if you're arriving from Taipei, Tokyo, Seoul, N. America, we expect you to be at FL130 by MELON, cause that's on profile for RWY25 - right?.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN, RWY07 IS THE MOST USED RUNWAY?
Well, okay we do change runways occasionally, so we'll stick with the "master plan". Now I know you're going to say that that's way too high if you're landing on RWY07. And I have to agree (grudgingly), 'cause if you arrive from the east in the wee small hours and I don't put any height restrictions on you
then you will cross MELON at FL310 (Well, the men amongst you will).
So that's the height problem solved. Make sure you arrive after midnight and before six'ish in the morning and you can have a proper descent profile. If you have a problem with that outside those hours then you'll have to arrange a meeting with "big" NORM and sort it out with him. 'Cause I don't get paid enough to do his job as well as my own!
Lots of luck "Beachie" :ok:

Association!!!
 

:D :D :D
Thank you Mr President .... your letter to Co and company very good.

Now I think my payment to association is worth (I will continue be a memeber) ...

:D :D

Keep the GOOD WORK.

多謝 :ok: We love you!!!

I had always considered that I eventually wanted to end up working at HKG - reading this thread, and others has me seriously wondering!

Corresponence received from CAD recently, suggest there is no recruitment for expats in the pipleine. Is this for real or just the official line? The impression I get is that you (like everywhere else) are very short-staffed. Heaven knows how they expect to accomodate growth without the people.

So - is it still worth trying for HKG if/when they change their policy?

And - when ATC's leave HKG to work, where do they normally go?!

PM any info in-confidence.

Ta.

When you leave HK it's usually to go back to work in your home country,retire,or the Middle East.There were so many nationalities I think we are spread all over the world.;)

!!!!su,
HK ATC used to be a really nice place to work. But the good times are long gone! HK ATC is rotten to the core and dysfunctional, too. Lack of staff is only a part of the problem.

Here are 5 reasons why you should NOT come here - even if they do recruit:

- for the last 10 years our salary has been static. A pay increase is highly unlikely. We work twice the number of aircraft, though!

- leave is too hard (quite rare) to get. For people who appreciate their time off and holidays more than their work it is all just TOO HARD!

- TOIL. This concept is normally hard to explain to others: Basically, our management take great pride in calculating our working hours every month and keep a exact record for each controller - even down to the minute! They insist we must work the same number of hours every week as office workers. No acknowledgement that it is more tiring to work evenings, nights, weekends etc. Invariably, we end up working slightly less than the office people and are therefore called upon to work on our days off. This will sooner or later create fatigue and guess how this affects our morale.

- The place gets busier every day, but our procedures, management and supervisors are behind the power curve. The front line controllers have to cope with it all including the ridiculous restriction imposed by ATC China. No support!!!

- The staff morale is at an all time low. The youngsters on training are fed up even before they get checked out. There is definitely a punishment culture here. Many experienced controllers (locals and expats) are at the point where they would love to leave. Generally, there is a lot of anger and dissatisfaction here. Working in this kind of environment is simply not healthy for anyone.

Anyway, a new recruitment seems unlikely although we are 50 controllers short. Our bosses are still in denial.

When I served my time there (98-01)I was almost the youngest Gweilo there.I'm now 45.There must be a lot of the Gweilos coming up for retirement,whether it be on their terms or they won't give you a contract past 60.
The CAD made no effort to encourage younger Gweilos to stay,or have a way for them to come back if things get tight.People have to go home for lots of reasons,and for me HK is the other side of the world.As I said before,you've done 3 years now get out and don't come back.
I also think that CAD got off Scot free ,and I have had lots of practise there.(JIMMY). If a ''certain investment'' had actually worked :O :uhoh: then there would have been NOBODY left.A Really,Sound,Idea wasn't it. Shame nice try though.:(

!!!!su, Having read some of your informative posts elsewhere, you seem to be far too smart and well read for these lattitudes. I would say that the chances of HK recruiting expats soon under anything but reasonable terms are almost non existent. I think the halcyon days of "Let's go to the tropics for a while Dear" have disappeared with global warming. I quite enjoyed HK when we were at Kai Tak, but those days have long since faded away...what was that approach to RWY13 called..IDS...IKS...IZS? Stuffed if I can remember! One of these days when I am in Brissy, I will have to take you under my wing, down to the Brekky Creek and fill you in on a few details....and we don't even know each other...or do we?

ATCO's do their best (not always enough and often too much) within the frustrating and strangled system we are forced to comply with. Sometimes the frustrations explode on frequency when one too many "what's my delay" questions happen. You may not realise that this question occurs 100's of times a day and it is not possible or appropriate to answer all in a calm /concise and friendly manner due to workload or the fact that there maybe no reasonable answer due to a sad lack of experience or outright ablitiy. You may be the one that breaks the chopstick and the reply may not equal the question. How many of you have listened to the poor R/T from some carriers the constant cries of confirm followed by a perfect readback, the long unitelligable readbacks, the incomprehensible incoherant requests that clutter the HK ATC freq's do you then wonder why occasionally and increasingly there are snaps on the ATCO's side. Please add to that the frustrations of pay/toil/leave/China ATC (prehistoric systems, couldn't make a decision if you paid them, let's put a hold on Hk traffic again it worked last time and they don't stand up for themselves,why not just stop all traffic into Beijing and Shanghai because we can ha! ha! let's make FL370 the only level today as nobody can make it by Dotmi -20, I think that guy might be near the holding point let's call HK and give him a 3 hour delay but only say it is 20 minutes for the next 19 minutes(you think I'm joking,I'm not) Many pilots do have a reasonable gripe but at the end of the day so does everyone else and you all pick on the ATCO. HKATC is clearly a leader in service in Asia (kindascarybuttrue) it ain't perfect, sometimes it ain't pretty, but without support from H headquarters Q and the users (Pilots) things won't get any better just more frustrated/irritated and down right cranky.
Just remember we both need each other and are in a pile of :mad: without acceptance and cooperation.
p.s. I don't miss the job and can confirn all that dyce has said re toil and Gweilo airlines except that I was closer to losing 200 hours but didn't keep a record.

Everyone at Gweilo Airlines should send CAD a bill for the hundreds of hours that they F:mad: STOLE off us.200 hours is over a month,and they did it to everyone to varying degrees.They make this song and dance about TOIL,keeping a squadron of people beavering away on the 4th floor,to produce something that is 3 months old.When you leave and you are positve hundreds of hours,will you get the time,or money.I don't think so.
You couldn't fight it as there was no union to back you up.Just shrug the shoulders and put it down to the way they are.If they were decent employers they would investigate this,and sort it out.Anyway I hope that this information is being copied and fed to management on the 4th floor.You bunch of thieving B:mad: tards

amen dyce,,how can you run an accountling system where complete weeks are missed out because the person responsible didn't tick your presents so no record so therefor you no there. This equats to 100K of lost income and every second has to be paid back . It is however allowable on their part to hold the positive toil for years and can be several months worth of unpaid overtime . The hope is you forget or don't argue because they won't pay you . That my friends is theft by the govt of your time and your money there is no other slant on it. But who is going to fight it when your tenure is but a fleeting moment and the cost prohibitive...:ugh:http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/46.gif:ouch:

Oh Dear -

Think I will stick to where the grass is browner.

TOIL sounds like grounds for..... an uprising!

Thanks for the feedback.

S-T

Why am I not surprised - oops! $10
 

I have not visited these pages for a long time but I am not at all surprised to read what it is like in Hong Kong now. It seems to me that absolutely nothing, with the exception of traffic levels, has changed since I arrived there in 1996. Nor is it likely to in the forseeable future. Unless the old bugbear of "loss of face" is expunged from the Chinese psyche and people are allowed to make decisions without fear of being hung, drawn and quartered or even worse, having their TOIL tinkered with, then nothing will ever change.
The civilised world got where it is by taking risks, making mistakes, learning from them and improving the situation as a result. That will never happen in HK because nobody in management (upper, middle or lower) is prepared to make a decision that could be wrong and result in face loss.
Hong Kong is nothing more than a very rich third world country and will remain so for a long time. The ME could probably be placed in the same category but at least the Arabs were smart enough to realise it and were happy to pay for (and listen to) foreign companies and expertise.
With regard to all the bu11sh1t about procedures that you guys have to put up with, it seems to me that you made your bed and now you have to lie in it. Back when CLK first opened and virtually nothing changed from the Kai Tak operation (if I remember correctly the movement rate was initially LESS than at Kai Tak) that was when you should have made a stand instead of just saying "yes John, how high would you like me to jump, John?". Perhaps if something had been said by the expats as a group, instead of the odd individual - all of whom have probably long since been given their "pink slips"-, maybe, just maybe, somebody might have listened.
Of course, the biggest obstacle to speaking up was always the possibility (probablity!) of non renewal of contract tho surely that is no longer such a big issue given the staff shortage and the proximity of retirement for a large number - not to mention the huge stockpiles of cash that you have all built up over the last 10 years :)
Perhaps now is the time to stand up for what you believe in and to do future HK controllers a huge favor - approach management as a large group of hugely experienced controllers and tell them what a crock of sh1t HK really has become under their management. Fat chance of that I guess Huh?

For those who have seriously had enough there are plenty of jobs available in the ME, and plenty more to come with the opening of the new airport at Jebel Ali. Just imagine the joy. SIX parallel runways, all separated, and not a hill as far as the eye can see and whilst Serco may have its problems at least you can make your feelings felt and put forward your ideas without quite the same oppressive fear of recrimination. They also pay more than enough to live on and you get plenty of time off to have a life. No more waiting for busses or living in fear of being caught sneaking out early.
One problem tho - it is a real bitch trying to navigate the sand in a wheelchair or a walking frame.

I noticed in one of the earlier posts that mention was made of "a certain investment". Don't tell me that you guys have blown some of your hard earned cash and have still not partaken of the millions that were promised - bummer!
RSI - what an ironic name given the repetitive strain it must have caused over the years. Still, there are quite a few McDonalds in the ME that could do with a bit of refurbishment :)

Firstly I want to say thank you to the guys at HKG ATC. I have had the pleasure of meeting/drinking with/playing tennis with many guys in DB from ATC. Regardless of industry or position I think there are very few people in HKG who are not overworked and 'underpaid' compared with 10 years ago.

Personally, I feel myself relaxing as soon as I am in contact with HKG ATC inbound. I make mininal calls...I have found ATC incredibly proactive in giving directs/ high speed exemptions etc. On the ground...I understand that any delay is ambiguous just like the load controller or engineer telling me we have a problem....the age old problem....the delay, how long is a piece of string. So if a specified time delay isn't provided its probably because they don't know...so why keep asking?

I have to say I have never experienced 'snooty' or sarcastic ATC calls (in HKG) in over 14 years...but I have been embarassed by my colleagues being both over the radio!

Both ATC and us have the same goal...the safe and efficient arrival/departure of aircraft to/from HKG. So why argue or take it personally if something gets said!? Personally, I fly at least 150 till 5nm, even though I fly AIrbus, as the aim isn't to be at a height and speed at 1000' AAL...it is to be safe and efficient....and help preceding and following aircraft to be safe and efficient as well. I sometimes think that 1000' rule is the tail wagging the dog!

Anyway, to Marty/Greg/Rob et al...keep up the good work....the silent majority appreciate the humour and professionalism over the airwaves!

[quote=Numero Crunchero;2933979.


Anyway, to Marty/Greg/Rob et al...keep up the good work....the silent majority appreciate the humour and professionalism over the airwaves![/quote]

keep up the good work?

V2U
Your age says it all. Now run along ....

Bekol,
Is that you I spy further down the beach?
Relax, that nice 19 year old is probably a budding CPA-jock, or has an application in to become a controller. In which case - "DON'T DO IT".
Right, back to the beach.

Beachie :ok:

Victor,
Are you Victor Meldrew?I don't beleive it!! Well my friend your speaking to the ''et al'' now.I wouldn't say Good Work,I'd say ''Excellent''. Given all the hurdles that are placed in the way, then those guys do a Great job.I worked bloody hard with them to give the best service that we possibily could,with the handcuffs and straight jackets we had around the HK area.So ur compaint is?
2 U up U 2 and C U Jimmy:mad: