ATC hours
 

Oasis,
Normally we do not work more than a ten hour shift..standard pattern is a ten day cycle 2 afternoons 2 mornings 2 night shifts syandard shift 8 to ten hours long ..
on radar for max 2 hours then a break of up to an hour and back for more.
Thanks for the encouraging comments..more than we get from management.:D

Dyce,
Point taken with the Director Fq and the TCAS seperation, totally agreed. Still why the extra radar vector for 07 when it is pretty much the same as the publish approach track from LIMES/SOKOE? You can still give us speed control for spacing until tower handover and it would save on radio congestion. It will also let us plan our descent profile without worrying about short cuts (or late turns) for LOC intercept.

Dixi,
I'm all for letting a/c do there own thing when possible,but having 5 a/c close together,on base leg for 07,wandering around is really :eek: .You'd have to vertically separate,because they are basically on their own navigation,so you can't prove separation to the powers that be.
Also with the best will in the world,a/c doing these self positions to centre fixes or whatever,are all over the place.A good Fin can put them on the ILS very accurately.If the numbers are limited on Fin to 5 or 6 then R/T loading is ok.
If the airport continues to grow then the hourly rate has to go up.Heathrow are doing 2.5 mile spacing in the right conditions.It can be done.Everyone has to get up to speed.The CAD has to open their eyes.Kai Tak is gone.:ugh:

A lot of friendly banter here guys n dolls......"Dragqueen 69"..."Ball juggler".

In the mire is a suggestion for a few drinks...for genuine pressure relief and lubrication, I suggest Nana Plaza later in the month. Dragqueens and Ball jugglers are readily available there.


"roll me in honey and throw me to the Lesbians"


:ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :) :) :) :) :ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

Whats with the approach controller telling us to keep 210 kts to 12 miles, then change to tower who then informs us that windshear is reported ? This then leaves us with having to reconfigure the aircraft for a windshear technique approach, and change in Vapp and to be configured and stabilized by 1500 feet instead of 1000 feet. Is it possible for the approach controller to talk to the tower controller and vice versa and to then realise that a more conservative speed control is now necessary ?
This is by no means an attack on ATC but rather a question about comunication between controllers and whether they are taking actual conditions into account ?
Peace :confused:

I thought windshear reports went out on the ATIS with a report time,where,altitude etc.Unless it had just happened?

Hi SMOC,

Thanks for the information;

I find Hong Kong ATC the best around. Went in yesterday and we landed as aircraft had just exited high speed taxiway. He was told to expedite. We touched down just behind him and were told to expedite. As we pulled off you could see the next one over the fence. If only Singapore ATC went to Hong Kong for training:(

It is the only place we go (Jetstar Asia) where we touch down consistantly earlier than plan.

Good on you Hong Kong ATC:ok:

hkg atc
 

CPA never gave the controller a crash course on how to fly their aeroplane, 210 to 12 is to try to help you stay clean and save 50 cents worth of fuel. If you can't do it, tell us. If the windshear is reported for the first time then you will have to do what you need to do. We separate traffic first and foremost. We have no idea that you need to stablize by 1500 and not 1000 as most other airlines do under the circumstances. Most controllers are fed up with you guys who thinks that yours is the only aeroplane in the sky and expect us to know how to serve everyone of you.

Hmmmm! I guess you must be 'Mr Difficult'

Mairyhinge – To sum up some of the above threads, most pilots think ATC know the profiles of the aircraft they fly, the company SOPs and even the engine fail procedures for their specific aircraft type and Company. We don’t. Your company doesn’t tell us, the manufacturer doesn’t tell us and you can’t learn about it from a Flight magazine.
We have around 70 regular operators into CLK flying everything from Biz-jets to 747’s and all have different SOPs, even for the same aircraft types. As ‘valeriey’ says, if you can’t do something or are uncomfortable with the instructions given to you, tell us and then tell us what you can do. We will then do our very best to modify what we are doing to suit the situation. (Relative positions, levels and speeds of other aircraft ahead and behind you will have a bearing on this). The earlier you tell us, the more likely you will get what you want.
As for the windshear warnings, if it’s forecast, or observed, it will be on the ATIS. If it’s a warning which has only just occurred, it is given to you when you call the tower, which in turn is usually before 5 miles. Also remember that all windshear warnings are based on LOW LEVEL warnings, i.e. below 900’ and only for final approach or departure which is defined in the Hong Kong AIP as the final 3 nm to touchdown or the first 3nm on departure. When I last looked 900’ is below the 1000’ you should be stabilized anyway.

valeriey,

"Most controllers are fed up with you guys who thinks that yours is the only aeroplane in the sky and expect us to know how to serve everyone of you."

No, there's 100 of our aeroplanes in the sky. I don't think that post was saying that in the sense you've taken it. Yes, there are difficult people in the sky and on the ground but lets keep it in proportion.:=

So when are they going to recruit Gweilos again? There must be a retirement bulge coming up with both local and expat.
I have no intention of going back even if they asked me,( which is very unlikely):} ! Did my stint of Dogs and Babies land.:p. Hey,Boss Norman are you reading this?:ooh: ;)

Valeriey my dear, if you slow down and re-read my original post you will see I was not attacking ATC but rather asking a question. So please take a minute to comprehend the post.

The windshear was not on the atis. I understand that ws can happen suddenly so there is not always time. The configuration change was necessary but not impossible. I think you will find that most airlines configure early in conditions where there is windshear and or poor weather / visiblity.

IGS, comments noted and you are quite correct, better for us to speak up at the time.

Again not an attack on the job done by the sometimes overly sensitive (Valeriey) ATC

The Hinge

This topic got a lot of interest at work lately. Seems a lot of colleages ready to take some action over their leave and pay. Maybe next month is not a good time to fly from HK?:oh:

Bottom line.
 

Came in today on an emergency, asked for return to Hong Kong. A BIG thank you to the guys/ girls on duty.... a great job, you took a load of our shoulders. Was given good steers with relevant info. e.g. track miles to go. On asking which runway to expect we were given wind directions on all thresholds and asked which we preferred. After touch down we were given good info. after the roll out by tower. Don't want to go into to much detail, but it show we can bitch about everyday ops. as much as we like, but this afternoon showed that when the chips are down you delivered the goods.
:ok:

P.S. It sounded like the supervisors / senior controllers took over when we declared emergency, or was that just the adrenaline pumping?

Fed up Hong Kong controllers
 

As a VHHH controller, here are a few comments to pilots who complain about negative comments and worse from ATC. Sure, we sometimes get sarcastic and make comments to pilots who either don't listen or don't comply. Please consider our situation, though:

The Government & Joseph Wong and his gang have cut our salaries 3 times. We are now back at 1997 levels. There seems no realistic hope of any increase in the coming years. With family commitments, I am finding it increasingly hard to meke ends meet financially.

"The Employer's MPF contribution" is actually taken from our gratuity. So in reality, we are forced to invest 2000 HKD per month in a fund we would normally not touch with a barge pole. The employer's contribution is ZERO!

Due to staff shortage leave is almost impossible to get now. The ATCO leave programme tells its own tale: In December TWO radar controllers got leave. Our incompetent management could not care less and basically sit in their offices with their heads up their rear ends. Why should they care? Airplanes generally still take off and land on time. Their leave is guaranteed at Christmas, CNY and Easter. They are - at best - still in Kai Tak - 200 movements per day-mode. At worst, simply petty bureaucrats awaiting their pension. They certainly have no idea how to run a busy ATC unit. To add insult to injury, a recent memo was issued with a warning that management reserves the right to cancel already approved leave with short notice. Not that there is a lot left for them to cancel.

The poor locals are having an even harder time regarding leave. The main difference between them and the expats here is that they are easier to bully as they have a "career" to protect. Some of them have now reached the maximum number of days they are allowed to accrue, (varying from 40 to 180 days) but still cannot get any leave. Our friendly management has told them they must expect to simply lose the leave due to "critical staff shortage". Hardly legal, but our so-called union cannot help. They must also protect their careers, of course.

Last week, one of the nazis from the fourth floor spotted a controller on a shuttle bus 30 minutes before he was expected to leave work. With great management skills the the manager investegated this extremely important matter and had words with the supervisor who released his controller before the end of his shift. The ATCO has been deducted 30 minutes from his TOIL balance and memos reminding staff not to leave early have been issued. No doubt, the ATCO's name can be found in the dreaded "pink book" where all dirty deeds such as this one are carefully noted and kept forever. Useful information for future reference!

With a critical staff shortage, management still run SAR courses and send people overseas for various Mickey Mouse courses. The sad reality of today is that the front line controllers are paying the price for years of mismanagement and poor planning. The problem is massive and gets bigger every day. To say that staff morale is low is the understatement of the year!

Additionally, we daily have to cope with the increasingly ridiculous Fred Flintstones restrictions imposed by ATC China. "10 minutes via Bekol, irrespective of level - you are number 8!".Try telling that to an impatient aircrew. It would be great to see restriction on traffic ENTERING HK FIR for a change - especially with bad weather around. However,this will not happen as it means standing up to big brother.


I know we are free to walk out in search of greener pastures, but this is easier said than done. But I do feel that most of the controllers are rapidly approaching the breaking point. The number of daily movements have doubled since the opening of CLK, but our conditions have constantly deteriorated. On top of that AA are still pushing for more landing slots.

So for all you CX, KA and other drivers out there: We are really sorry if we bark at you at times. We know we should be courteous and professional, we know we have a job because of you and not the other way around. But enough is enough. We despise the people we work for and are very, very angry. Frankly, many of us can be compared to Krakatoa in the days leading up to the explosion in 1883. Please try to bear with our grumpiness - it has nothing to do with you!

RRSM - thanks for all that, explains a lot.
Still not sure why that lady on ground freq tells everyone to "standby" on first contact EVERYTIME, thus increasing her own workload .:ok:

WeeJohn....!
My pleasure!
Please be advised that we have more than 40 ladies with a valid Ground rating plus quite a few on training. It will thus be hard to identify "the lady on ground".

There can be a number of reasons to say "standby" - sometimes the controller just needs to think. If it happens all the time it could be that she "needs a little more experience". Some of them are very green and you are a lot more likely to get a "standby" with no explanation given from somebody on training.

I think a lot of pilots would benefit significantly from sitting next to a controller during a busy spell - Tower, Approach or Area Radar. This is the only way that you guys will get to appreciate what we are doing and why we are doing it - maybe! A bunch of pilots herded through the ATCX by a CAD official is a complete waste of time. Come closer, plug in and have a casual chat to the controllers if you can!

Ahh yes...the "Almighty Traffic Cone". The great adversary. Many have met their demise when confronted by the Traffic Cone. :} :} :} :}

I would have taken a picture too. I'll be laughing at that one for a while.

Reply to Suzie Wong
 

You go there Girl ! ... and tell it like it is.. Sincerely, it doesn't sound at all good for HK ATC at present... Just hope things improve for you all.

Have to say, that in my now many years of flying out of Kai Tak and CLK... HK ATC have provided excellent service. Indeed there are many constraints that you have to deal with.... Airspace, Traffic Coordination across the border, the odd Typhoon here and there....Inspite of all, you all do a great job and do your level best to provide safe and efficient control of the airspace. Thanks a heap to all.... We appreciate your efforts immensely.

As for my favourite on the frequencies, whom I affectionately call "Mr Grumpy" ...(we all know his voice well and the term Mr Grumpy is really a term of endearment, so don't take offence matey)... he really isn't all that mean. He's an ACE controller, along with the many others in HK... and actually I quite get a tickle when he pulls some wayward aviators in to line from time to time.... I just quiver in my seat if I've given him cause to bark at me !

If a pilot asks APP or Director at 6 mile final if they should go to tower then that pilot wastes the time of the controller and all the others on the frequency. It is an inane question given that there is probably an aircraft ahead still not landed and others behind. If I'd wanted you to go to TWR then I would have transfered you already. Dealing with unneccessay questions breaks my concentration, interferes with my planned RTF calls, wastes RT time (often in short supply at HK). Please stop asking that particular question. I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.

I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK. All tower can say is 'continue approach' (and give wind and RVR etc) - wind and RVR are available on request from APP or Director and will be given in any case where necessay. A/c don't land any quicker if they are on TWR rather than APP. It is my job to provide appropiate spacing on final - where wake is involved this is also a safety issue.

APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.

HK spacing on final is much tighter than it used to be (min wake if possible) and the APP or director needs the a/c on frequency longer than before to ensure accuracy. The winds on 25 are as tricky for us as they are for pilots. The choice is go to TWR earlier, fly your own speeds, spend longer in the air holding or on vectors - or - stay with APP or Director until transfered, fly the assigned speeds as ops permit, land earlier.

For 69 - take another vist to ATC if possible with an operational controller and not with someone from an HK ATC office post.

The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.

BFN
tolosweetpea

RRSM

1) $100000 a month and can't support your family?!:sad: how many children do you have?

2) Half an hour early? I thought he was two and a half early!:=

But I agree with your views of the management, they are a hopeless bunch. The ex chief has gone with heaps of $$ but wait... he's back for more as our chief planner of the new ATC building. Can't get any worse.:ugh:

HK ATC has a shoe shining culture. The people at the top are not there on merits and the same goes to the "stand by ladies".

HK spacing on final is much tighter .... NOT
 

:= Who says we doing less than 5 nm?? Totally WRONG! Which part of MATC??
You are misleading the flying public!!

STOP DOING LESS THAN 5, until management says YES. Our job in the Tower can be much easier. Sick of APP giving spacing less than minimum wake turbulence ... there may be an accident soon :=

Easy fella
 

Easy sweet pea. Flight crew fly to airports all over the globe (as I am sure you are aware) so rather than saying that something happens far to often, maybe stop and think that there might be a reason ? Most airports transfer a/c on to tower at about the same time ( 1500'-2000' feet on the glide slope) so if you are holding them longer than the norm then you will get questioned as flight crew start to squirm, because guess what ATC occasionally drop the ball too !

Also many flight crew may not have been to Hong Kong in years. They may be tired as well so have a little sypathy as I have for the pressures you are under.

I am not sure that I want to be cleared to land by approach !

Regarding speed restrictions, it happens quite often that you are maintining the speed asked for and getting in to high and hot and want to slow down when all the while the speed was not required. So again the flight crew are getting skittish. maybe the initial speed restriction should have an expected end point ie maintinan 250 to 15 dme...to limes (yeah right ) or something.

Cheers

You could probably save a lot of RTF by telling us how many track miles to touchdown you are planning for us on first contact so we don't have to guess how tight you are planning to vector us. This is standard practice at LHR and reduces stress levels all round.

Wake up call, NOMAN!
 

:\ What is going on at this place ... no leave, heavy workload, low in morale and what not! No discipline, no standard, yeahhhh.

The place is in a mess ... poor management. Yes, VERY POOR.

That guy from 4th floor keeps coming up. We see him in the center, see him in the reading room and restroom .... what does he do? I checked - he is in charge of Training, why the s:mad: t is he in the center all the time. ops is not his responsibility .... he thinks he is Mr Everything.

And that guy you recently re hired ...... We have a pretty bad center, now we will have a new BAD center

oh no!:ugh:

To Carnage

Heathrow is a totally different situation to HK. There is virtually no high terrain around Heathrow, You don't have a "no go" international border as HK does just 3 NM from base leg (for 07); At LHR aircraft can join the LLZ from about 6 miles from touchdown all the way out to God only knows where. Take the SIERRA drop in's for instance, some times it will not be known that this track shortening will be available until you have passed South of Sierra. Quite often it is a quickly agreed shortening after fairly serious co-ordination between (possibly) 4 different/busy terminal area controller's (each with their own requirements), and then it is juggle juggle trying to fit you in. Because this has happened it may mean that other traffic has to be widened out a bit, or even shortened, so where the hell has your great "track miles from touch down" gone to now. The bottom line is: North runway generally for landers, so we can more efficiently release departures; We try to sequence arrivals as close to the required sep minima as possible to have the most expeditious landing sequence; This place is very restricted for aispace usability because of the proximity of Chinese and Macau airspace, and high terrain; and no, it is not more efficient to allow aircraft to "fly the approaches by themselves" as the amount of RTF that would be going on in the speed control department would drive you mad and us mad. It's all pretty simple really, until the Wx turns to c**p.

HKG has an very narrow arrivals gate (particularly for 07) and I have read elsewhere on PPrune, someone suggesting that if crews don't play the correct "speed" game, then we take them out of the sequence. Well, to where? All that does is create a dangerous situation with (often poor English skilled) pilots not knowing what is going on, below the Min Radar Vector alt, and then we have one extra aircraft to later fit in (maybe at the expense of you)! Once an order is set in motion it becomes difficult to change, this is one of the reasons why Runway changes can be so labourious and time consuming.

Much of this stuff has been addressed before, but then I guess you can't be expected to know that.

BB

My airlines flights generally land around 1200-1600L in HKG, and certainly on the earlier flights it seems to be pretty quiet around there. My experience of vectoring to 07L seems to be that its a buggers muddle. One day you'll turned in for a tight base leg having to throw every source of drag out just to stay on the profile, the next you'll be vectored miles downwind and end up dragging it in level at 1500ft. Surely by the time people are turning downwind you must have a good idea of how many miles we've got left to go?

Bedder, Thanks for that, the more you ATC'rs get your point of view across to pilots the better (or bedder?) we all are. Our line ops people talk to you, and there is the users meeting every month or so. As line pilots we then get a filtered version of the meetings.

What we need is a kind of FAQ for operators into Hong Kong.

I mean if CX and Dragon pilots on here are not sure of what is best for you , how can the rest of the world have a chance? This is a good informal place to learn what works for you guys and you can hear our bitches, and then neutralise them with the reason why we can't have what we want.

As an aside, flying into CLK the other day with a trough line and CBs that turned our wx radars red like a butchers apron, we got every avoidance we needed and landed after half an hour. It was hard work. My perceptive FO pointed out that radar probably still had another six hours of shift to go with those conditions.

So most of us do appreciate what you do...

Silly question?
 

How about this: On our descend clearance, "...Maintain high speed on descend and high speed though Melon..." so to help our OTP and others', we maintain 320kts all the way and we change the "box" (ops! I mean the FMC). Just before Melon, get told to reduce to 250kts NOW. How often does it occur? A lot!! So, I really want to know "what speed do you want us to fly?" and I mean it.

Hi Carnage (Good Nom de Plume)

You are being too general. One day at 12.30 it can be quiet, and the next it can be chaos. If, (as most of the time when it is "quiet") you are passing SIERA and given a turn for obvious track shortening, then knock it back. Do the whole STAR and your FMC will be able to tell you how many track miles you have to go....probably about 80 I would say. I have the sneeking impression that you fly for "The airline". Well it just so happens that we notice that you people are notorious for landing long (on 07L) to your E gates on the North apron. I will offer this to you until the cows come home ...if it is available, but when your lot take liberties that inconvenience others, then the next time it might not be offered. I am not trying to tell you for one second that everything that happens with HK ATC is good, or can be justified in every circumstance, at times we have a lot to answer for, but as the ratio of crews operating into here that have poor English skills increase, well I can assure you that our workload will increase and the nicities will gradually fade away.

For you to post here "At Heathrow blah blah blah..." is like me posting to you "At Cathay blah, blah, blah..." It is irrelevant. We have a system with a big mix of expats from all over the place (including ex EGLL) and an increasing number of low experience locals. Most of the time people are trying their best under the circumstances. Let's face it "track miles to run" is at best an (educated) guess on our part, and can be reasonably well figured out by you people using the resources that you have at hand... your experience; the runway in use; your NAV display; where you are being vectored to; listening to what you think will be the next aircraft ahead; your TCAS; fighting with your F/O...etc.

Not trying to dismiss your query, it's all relevant, however, you really need to consider both sides of the story. Operating a large heavy jet with other traffic can have it's frustrations, but you just have to live with it. As I said in a previous post, one of our tasks is to align the traffic flow in a reasonably sane order to land given wake turbulence and other considerations, and it becomes "juggle juggle" to a certain extent. You might want "track miles to run" (at SIERA) but if we are on 25R you will pass through the hands of 4 controllers before you call the Tower, and not each has the time to try and second guess what the other is going to do with you. So as I said above, we can only come up with an eduated guess with track miles, which as often as not will be no more accurate that what you yourself can figure out in the cockpit.

Hi Moosp, thanks for the (as usual) kind words. You are correct, some sort of dialogue would be useful, but I think for the time being we will have to annonymously "PPrune" it. I do think that "pilots visiting ATC" with useful periods of interface would be good, but trying to get our management to provide the resources required is an issue. It's unfortunate that access to the centre/tower is pretty restrictive, that will remain a problem. As for the talks between your "line ops" and "you", I guess you mean our management. We rarely get feedback from that. What is needed is for line pilots (say groups of 5) to have the opportunity to come and plug in for a couple of hours. I don't know what sort of interest there would be. With CX pilots being scattered all over the World doesn't help, but I guess slots could be reserved for those staying at the Headland on layovers....KA guys are more "local" ....just thoughts!

Easy :-)
 

I was tired when I posted my rant - so unreserved apologies for being so hard. I stand by my points however.

A better way for 69 or other crews to go is to state their callsign and distance from touch down - this avoids a loaded question and sticks to the facts. It also leads the controller to a simple - but not necessarily pleasurable:-) '... roger' as a suitable reply or to assess the separation and transfer to TWR if appropriate. Sometimes the way we say a thing makes a big difference. And added advantage is it allows a cross check between navaid, radar, nav equip on the range from touchdown.

If APP issue a landing clearance they do it on ADC's behalf - ADC will have applied the same criteria to their decision as they would if they passed it directly to the a/c themselves and then told APP - who then pass it to the a/c for ADC. I can't see a problem with that - it must surely be better than a late freq change and rushed clearance. Many clearances are passed on behalf of others in all ATC systems everywhere all the time - for example when crossing FIR or ATC sector boundaries a/c do it on a clearance from the receiving FIR or sector but passed by the transferring sector. If you have and emergency then APP keeping you will avoid a freq change when your workload is high. In bad wx with many missed approaches keeping a/c and passing landing clearances may also be the better way the manage the traffic.

I can only speak for myself on the speeds - I avoid hot high and issue appropriate speeds based on many years of ATC experience here and abroad. I base my final issued speed on the published procedural approach speeds and don't issue speeds above 210 that would apply on the glide. I have witnessed some of the less experienced ATC here issuing inappropriate speeds and I'm with you regarding that. But sometimes I do get it wrong or can't get in to make a change in time - I'm human like us all.

tolosweetpea

MATC
 

Now I can quote the MATC sections but it will take up quite a bit of forum space - and you have access to a copy and should know the relevant parts just as I do. Now if I'm not mistaken 5NM is min wake for a medium behind a heavy. In some circumstances we can use 4NM (also in MATC) and that is min wake between to heavies. The figures in the MATC are in any case about spacing NOT separation - for this HK uses ICAO radar and wake separations (see Doc 4444) and until HK files a difference and publishes it in the AIP these apply at HK. Another critical word in the MATC is 'should' - this has a particular meaning in aviation. I suggest that you go and read again the relevant parts.

I did not suggest that APP should ever provide less than the minimum separation and I don't. Your post is inaccurate and what has 'accident' to do with what I'd said earlier? If ICAO says that 3nm is safe between two mediums why should it be different here at HK - the laws of physics apply here the same at they do elsewhere in our current understanding of reality.

The 4th floor should however be explaining the the airlines why (and for years) arriving a/c have been delayed by vector, speed, and holding to supply extra spacing (not separation). For what reasons? Just what are ADC doing with the runway during this time?

It is not a safety issue in normal operating conditions - can be for some wx and runway mixes so we then use appropriate separation and procedures in those cases. Speak to the 4th floor APP guys - I hear that they have been tacitly and in fact specifically face to face approving min wake for the last two years - it is safe and expeditious to use appropriate international standard separations used all around the world. ATC must be safe, orderly, and expeditious - all three parts are required before we can say that we have done a good job (Safety having the highest priority and made a given in any situation).

HK has a final director now. HK has published reduced runway separation procedures - these are in place so that the unit can move to using all it's runway capacity. Slots have been and are limited at HK by CAD without compelling technical reasons.

I'm not tired today so you got the printable version of the reply:-)

tolosweetpea.

miles to go
 

ATC should always get track miles when on vectors - I agree completely - if the freq is not saturated (it can get that way at hk) then I and many others will give track miles and even vectoring intentions if it as an inventive plan. Some at ATC HK let the others down by neglecting to pass track miles to a/c on vectors. I don't give miles to glass cockpit a/c if I take them via direct fixes on the STAR - I understand that you will have the miles on your FMS or be able to work it out without to much difficulty.

BFN
tolosweetpea

Totally concur with moosp. We really appreciate the great job you guys do. I think it should be part of our formal training to understand what ATC is about. Not just learn it from anonymous websites like this.

Bedder,
Am I right in thinking back that there are holds at Soko and TD?.If there were would they help.Get the inbounds holding closer in and run the outbounds out underneath.
Also what is the minimum radar spacing.Have you got 3 miles,or 5 miles.TAD
Ps
Oh and how much is a DB dinky,sorry golf cart.I want to soup one up with a model aircraft engine.

Staying on APP freq at 6 miles is just as silly as me asking whether we need to be on Tower freq. At 6 miles I am on the LANDING phase not the APPROACH phase. Your US or European equivalent from LAX to JFK to FRA to LHR would have switched me to Tower shortly after being established on the localizer, usually around 12 to 8 miles out, so no need to doubt what their response would have been, because it is not a issue anywhere else but HK. Your primary task as APP. controller is to vector airplanes onto the localizer with the appropriate spacing. How can you possibly control me at 6 miles when I am already established on the ILS and can ONLY give you the approach speed of the airplane. Switching airplanes to Tower freq. that late in the landing phase is a useless practice. If you follow ICAO standards, then switch airplanes to Tower at the appropriate time or distance. I can't ever recall being switched to Tower that late, EVER, ANYWHERE, so if it is it not the norm, which I know it isn't, even in HKG, asking a question for a situation that is not the NORM is perfectly valid and not SILLY. What's next, taxi clearance to the bay issued by App.:ugh:

Just slightly less than you have Grandmothers, I suspect. ;)
Last time I checked, the top of ATCO II had been cut by $10,000 a month to less than 3/4 of that. :*

Dragon69
Its certainly not uncommon for aircraft elsewhere to be told to call the Tower at the outer marker i.e. under 4NM.
With HK operating a much higher % mix of Heavy than any of the airports you mention, the compression factor on final becomes critical for wake turbulence sep. Holding a/c on APP freq until 5NM is certainly no big deal.

<<Staying on APP freq at 6 miles is just as silly as me asking whether we need to be on Tower freq. At 6 miles I am on the LANDING phase not the APPROACH phase.>>

I only just saw this thread.. all very sad. However, to Dragon69... your perspective of the situation may vary greatly with that of ATC. There is nothing remotely unusual about an aircraft still talking to Approach at 6nm. I spent 31 years as a Heathrow Radar Contoller and kept thousands of aircraft until that ranage, and well inside that sometimes. Under certain conditions, eg SRAs, Visual Approaches, APP may retain control until much later on final, even until after touchdown. Technically, radar may be responsible for spacing on final approach and not the tower so it is entirely up to the controller and not you when he transfers you to the tower.

HD,
I still think that SRA's and Visuals are big ''Cannot'' in HK.They had a new high definition radar for parallel approaches,but I don't think it's been used,and certainly not for SRA's.The Airport can be seen from space,but visuals were strickly out.How did they land?? Flight checking seemed every 2 weeks,and they withdraw the aid from use prior to it.Why? 10 bucks
I'm afraid as a Nats trained controller,the way things are done in HK are strange.Blue strips for inbounds,buff for outbounds.:ugh: :hmm: You have to forget how to shift traffic,turn your training on it's head,and don't F:mad: up.No union to back you up,and a management you will blame you even if you're on leave.They roster you on extra days,for days leave,then rob you of the TOIL.
It's ATC JIM,but not as we know it.:8

I agree that there is nothing wrong with a/c on radar frequency inside 6 miles as well.