Hkg Atc
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Hkg Atc
What's up with some of these prima donna controllers in HKG. On a few occasions now I've had to make a valid inquiry only to be confronted with a long winded sarcastic reply. We are all profesionals here, and the last thing I need after a 12 hours flight is some p$@^# who thinks he is of great importance belittle me on final. Frankly it is starting to wear thin and so far I've had to bite my toungue and say nothing. Most of the controllers are courteous and profesional, but there are few that need to move on to greener pastures. Anyone with similar experiences?
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....let's just say that a particular 'localisation' project has not done HK ATC any favours... As for one or two of the expats...yes, a little less scarcasm towards tired and frustrated aircrew at the end of a long flight would be appreciated. 
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I have another question.
Last time I operated out of HKG we requested our clearance from ATC, after switching to ground control we requested start and push and were advised to stand by. Not a problem at all and this happens at most other airports around the globe as well.
After a couple of minutes we called ground control again, stating that we were still standing by for start and push and we received the same response from the ground controller as before. After another couple of minutes we called ground again and asked again for start and push and received the same response as previously. We then asked the controlled to state the reason for the delay, we received the replay „due to traffic“. We then further querried from ground the estimated delay and received no definite answer.
To make it short our next request was „succesfull“ and we were instructed to push and start up. We also received our taxi instruction for the active runway. Approaching the holding position the tower controller informed us to expect 15 minutes delay due to airspace restictions. Here we go.
I ask myself why didn’t neither delivery nor ground informed us accordingly? This would have saved a lot of dicussion on the frequency as well a considerable amount of the more and more expensive liquid used to „flood“ our engines. By the way, we were perfectly on time according to our ATC flightplan.
Last time I operated out of HKG we requested our clearance from ATC, after switching to ground control we requested start and push and were advised to stand by. Not a problem at all and this happens at most other airports around the globe as well.
After a couple of minutes we called ground control again, stating that we were still standing by for start and push and we received the same response from the ground controller as before. After another couple of minutes we called ground again and asked again for start and push and received the same response as previously. We then asked the controlled to state the reason for the delay, we received the replay „due to traffic“. We then further querried from ground the estimated delay and received no definite answer.
To make it short our next request was „succesfull“ and we were instructed to push and start up. We also received our taxi instruction for the active runway. Approaching the holding position the tower controller informed us to expect 15 minutes delay due to airspace restictions. Here we go.
I ask myself why didn’t neither delivery nor ground informed us accordingly? This would have saved a lot of dicussion on the frequency as well a considerable amount of the more and more expensive liquid used to „flood“ our engines. By the way, we were perfectly on time according to our ATC flightplan.
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Dragon 69,
As one who has moved on to colder pastures this is interesting.Belittle you on final?What's the problem after a long flight?Number in TFC,final app spacing?Not being number one?Please be specific.
I don't think you should have a go at my ex collegues,without being exact.
I certainly could raise issues with a certain airline with green tails,that used to schedule 5 pushbacks off E1,2,3,4 and S23 AT THE SAME TIME.A certain pilot for that airline called me a Jerk over the R/T for issuing a 10 min delay for push.Reason you will collide with the a/c behind.W
er
There are lots of timed separations through Bekol and other points which are based on the a/c in front.It isn't like the UK where there is a slot -5/+10 min.It's exactly 10/15 min behind the one in front for the same level.
I always thought that we should just get a/c airborne ,and let the levels sort themselves out en-route.Then a certain airline with green tails would bitch about being pegged at FL270.Can't win.If the guys break the rules then they get suspended.You should take this up with CAD senior management, about the Fred Flintstone separations,than have a go at the coal face workers.
As one who has moved on to colder pastures this is interesting.Belittle you on final?What's the problem after a long flight?Number in TFC,final app spacing?Not being number one?Please be specific.
I don't think you should have a go at my ex collegues,without being exact.
I certainly could raise issues with a certain airline with green tails,that used to schedule 5 pushbacks off E1,2,3,4 and S23 AT THE SAME TIME.A certain pilot for that airline called me a Jerk over the R/T for issuing a 10 min delay for push.Reason you will collide with the a/c behind.W
erThere are lots of timed separations through Bekol and other points which are based on the a/c in front.It isn't like the UK where there is a slot -5/+10 min.It's exactly 10/15 min behind the one in front for the same level.
I always thought that we should just get a/c airborne ,and let the levels sort themselves out en-route.Then a certain airline with green tails would bitch about being pegged at FL270.Can't win.If the guys break the rules then they get suspended.You should take this up with CAD senior management, about the Fred Flintstone separations,than have a go at the coal face workers.
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I have another question.
..... after switching to ground control we requested start and push and were advised to stand by. .......
After a couple of minutes we called ground control again, stating that we were still standing by for start and push and we received the same response from the ground controller as before. .....
After another couple of minutes we called ground again and asked again for start and push and received the same response as previously.
.......
To make it short our next request was „succesfull“ and we were instructed to push and start up.
.....By the way, we were perfectly on time according to our ATC flightplan.
..... after switching to ground control we requested start and push and were advised to stand by. .......
After a couple of minutes we called ground control again, stating that we were still standing by for start and push and we received the same response from the ground controller as before. .....
After another couple of minutes we called ground again and asked again for start and push and received the same response as previously.
.......
To make it short our next request was „succesfull“ and we were instructed to push and start up.
.....By the way, we were perfectly on time according to our ATC flightplan.
You asked for start and push 3 times in a 6 minutes and were told to "stand by". Obviously there WAS a reason - not just shear bloody-mindedness.
It sounds like the controller finally got fed up with your constant bleating and after the 4th request thought "stuff you - taxi if you like and go and hold somewhere else".
As Throw a dyce says, many of the restrictions we have are imposed by the Mainland, not us, and change at short notice.
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Hkg Atc
DragQueen 69
We all have our problems. You are at the end of a 12 hour flight – the controller may be at the end of his second successive 10 hour night shift; you have your rostering problems and niggling internal company conflicts – ATC has to contend with a shortage of staff and many bureaucratic government salary and leave restrictions; you have a few more aircraft and have to fly a few more sectors per month – ATC has no extra manpower and has to handle twice the amount of traffic compared to when the airport opened. So what you consider to be a ‘valid inquiry’ may be just one too many unnecessary questions for a controller at the end of a long hard shift, hence you might sometimes get a curt, less than friendly response.
Alatnariver
The No. 1 rule of ATC is ‘The Controller is Always Right’ and the No 2 rule of ATC is ‘You Cannot Please Every Pilot All of the Time’. I can only surmise that you are a newcomer to this part of the Orient, as push-back delays have been a continuous problem here since opening day. A combination of apron design, stand allocation, airspace restrictions and double the traffic means that they are not going to go away. As a guide, before you are ready to push, if the ground frequency is busy, there is a good chance that you will have a delay because of other traffic, if the ground frequency is not very busy, the ground controller may be fully occupied shuffling a fleet of aircraft on tow around the apron, and you will still have a delay !
Both protagonists appear to be suffering from the common aviator’s ailment known as ‘lack of the big picture’. Hong Kong ATC strives to provide the best possible service with the least overall delay to all of out customers , but with the constantly increasing traffic (964 movements in the recent post-typhoon day) the R/T congestion does not permit us to indulge in the cheery banter of old with detailed explanations of the whys and wherefores.
As my ex-colleague Highland Fling says, provide the times and details of the events and I will endevour to provide you with rational reasons/excuses/alibis for the ATC actions.
In the mean time may I suggest you contact your fleet manager and ask him to arrange a visit to ATC for you, or better still, tell him to organise a pilot/controller social gathering so that we can have a civilised discussion of our respective problems without you having to resort to biting off your appendages.
We all have our problems. You are at the end of a 12 hour flight – the controller may be at the end of his second successive 10 hour night shift; you have your rostering problems and niggling internal company conflicts – ATC has to contend with a shortage of staff and many bureaucratic government salary and leave restrictions; you have a few more aircraft and have to fly a few more sectors per month – ATC has no extra manpower and has to handle twice the amount of traffic compared to when the airport opened. So what you consider to be a ‘valid inquiry’ may be just one too many unnecessary questions for a controller at the end of a long hard shift, hence you might sometimes get a curt, less than friendly response.
Alatnariver
The No. 1 rule of ATC is ‘The Controller is Always Right’ and the No 2 rule of ATC is ‘You Cannot Please Every Pilot All of the Time’. I can only surmise that you are a newcomer to this part of the Orient, as push-back delays have been a continuous problem here since opening day. A combination of apron design, stand allocation, airspace restrictions and double the traffic means that they are not going to go away. As a guide, before you are ready to push, if the ground frequency is busy, there is a good chance that you will have a delay because of other traffic, if the ground frequency is not very busy, the ground controller may be fully occupied shuffling a fleet of aircraft on tow around the apron, and you will still have a delay !
Both protagonists appear to be suffering from the common aviator’s ailment known as ‘lack of the big picture’. Hong Kong ATC strives to provide the best possible service with the least overall delay to all of out customers , but with the constantly increasing traffic (964 movements in the recent post-typhoon day) the R/T congestion does not permit us to indulge in the cheery banter of old with detailed explanations of the whys and wherefores.
As my ex-colleague Highland Fling says, provide the times and details of the events and I will endevour to provide you with rational reasons/excuses/alibis for the ATC actions.
In the mean time may I suggest you contact your fleet manager and ask him to arrange a visit to ATC for you, or better still, tell him to organise a pilot/controller social gathering so that we can have a civilised discussion of our respective problems without you having to resort to biting off your appendages.
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Alatnariver,
In Europe airlines actually ask for an early push and are quite happy to burn fuel at the hold.Pushed back on time.
Even our little airport has a remote hold where they go,and shut down waiting for slots.With slots it's easy.Just aim for earliest airborne time.HK is way different.It's a 1960's way of doing it when DC3's and VC8 ruled the roost.
The problems that CDC had to work out with Mainland restrictions were horrendous.Mainland would block levels,so you ended trying to work out the (procedural/metric level/nothing to do with me) problem on the ground at CLK.Why? Just get them airborne out of HK through Bekol climbing to medium level, and let Mainland sort their own problems.
I explained the Bekol problem,to a colleague in the UK,and he fell off his chair laughing.
HK ATC seems to be tasked with sorting out every other FIR's problems,usually on the ground.You can't run an ATC system with it's hand and feet tied up,and expect Heathrow movement rates.
In Europe airlines actually ask for an early push and are quite happy to burn fuel at the hold.Pushed back on time.
Even our little airport has a remote hold where they go,and shut down waiting for slots.With slots it's easy.Just aim for earliest airborne time.HK is way different.It's a 1960's way of doing it when DC3's and VC8 ruled the roost.The problems that CDC had to work out with Mainland restrictions were horrendous.Mainland would block levels,so you ended trying to work out the (procedural/metric level/nothing to do with me) problem on the ground at CLK.Why? Just get them airborne out of HK through Bekol climbing to medium level, and let Mainland sort their own problems.
I explained the Bekol problem,to a colleague in the UK,and he fell off his chair laughing.
HK ATC seems to be tasked with sorting out every other FIR's problems,usually on the ground.You can't run an ATC system with it's hand and feet tied up,and expect Heathrow movement rates.
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Throw a Dyce,
I wouldn't be that childish and selfish to complain simply because I wasn't number 1 on the approach or the fact that I had to wait an extra 10 minutes before pushback, nor am I making this a pilot vs controller issue. But I have noticed recently a rise in unwarranted sarcastic remarks. One example is asking the app. controller to see if at 6 miles to touchdown he still wanted us on his freq. After all, and it is hard to believe, yes I know, but controllers are humans too and can forget simple tasks like handing you over to tower. Instead of replying with a yes or no, I was sarcastically told off for making, IMO a valid inquiry, and 2 seconds later he switches us to tower freq. Exactly what was the reason for such a remark, and what did it achieve? Was he announcing to everyone on his freq. how big or small his willy is? I am not exactly sure! There are w rs on both side of the fence.
I wouldn't be that childish and selfish to complain simply because I wasn't number 1 on the approach or the fact that I had to wait an extra 10 minutes before pushback, nor am I making this a pilot vs controller issue. But I have noticed recently a rise in unwarranted sarcastic remarks. One example is asking the app. controller to see if at 6 miles to touchdown he still wanted us on his freq. After all, and it is hard to believe, yes I know, but controllers are humans too and can forget simple tasks like handing you over to tower. Instead of replying with a yes or no, I was sarcastically told off for making, IMO a valid inquiry, and 2 seconds later he switches us to tower freq. Exactly what was the reason for such a remark, and what did it achieve? Was he announcing to everyone on his freq. how big or small his willy is? I am not exactly sure! There are w
rs on both side of the fence.
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Ball Jugler,
The No. 1 rule for pilots is question everything and don't blindly follow atc instructions.
Every employment has its fair share of problems, but I am certainly courteous and profesional towards everyone around me, from ground staff to cabin crew. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, you are free to leave HKG ATC anytime you wish. Just because you are at the end of a long shift doesn't give you the right to be curt to the traffic that you control
BTW when I make an inquiry it is for my benefit not yours, who are you to decide whether my inquiry is valid or not! It's about time that you stepped off your high horse!
My 'lack of the big picture' has kept me alive and incident free for 20+ years, I certainly don't need to prove myself to some p%^&k like you who thinks he is gods gift to ATC!
The No. 1 rule for pilots is question everything and don't blindly follow atc instructions.
Every employment has its fair share of problems, but I am certainly courteous and profesional towards everyone around me, from ground staff to cabin crew. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, you are free to leave HKG ATC anytime you wish. Just because you are at the end of a long shift doesn't give you the right to be curt to the traffic that you control
BTW when I make an inquiry it is for my benefit not yours, who are you to decide whether my inquiry is valid or not! It's about time that you stepped off your high horse!
My 'lack of the big picture' has kept me alive and incident free for 20+ years, I certainly don't need to prove myself to some p%^&k like you who thinks he is gods gift to ATC!
Last edited by Dragon69; 4th Sep 2006 at 10:10.
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Wind up artist
Dragon 69 doing a bit of fishing are we.
If not, perhaps the people you are decrying are not the only ones with a "problem". Have you ever visited a control tower / radar room? It is not as easy a job as you may think, they are trying to look after all the aircraft on there frequency not just a personal service for you. Perhaps you got a sarcastic reply because you perhaps came across that way yourself. XXX fully established on the ILS for xxL or R may have been a more diplomatic hint / reminder!
No I have not been an ATCO but visited the tower and radar room here as well as west drayton in my previous airline and we had a go at controlling in the simulator for departures out of Heathrow. Glad I fly aircraft and do not have to control them.
If not, perhaps the people you are decrying are not the only ones with a "problem". Have you ever visited a control tower / radar room? It is not as easy a job as you may think, they are trying to look after all the aircraft on there frequency not just a personal service for you. Perhaps you got a sarcastic reply because you perhaps came across that way yourself. XXX fully established on the ILS for xxL or R may have been a more diplomatic hint / reminder!
No I have not been an ATCO but visited the tower and radar room here as well as west drayton in my previous airline and we had a go at controlling in the simulator for departures out of Heathrow. Glad I fly aircraft and do not have to control them.
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Geriatric Jet Jugler,
I'll skip the fleet manager part of an organized social gathering and go straight for an informal meet at the "Slashers Arms", "Wrist Cutters" whatever they call it these days, how's that sound?
I've been to the tower a couple of times but not recently, a good experience and well recommended.
So anyone got a date they'd like to put forward? what's best for you Geriatric Jet Jugler and your buddies.
I do have one question what's with the chick and her "Welcome back" I know CX thinks flying planes is like a mission to mars but I never thought ATC did.
I'll skip the fleet manager part of an organized social gathering and go straight for an informal meet at the "Slashers Arms", "Wrist Cutters" whatever they call it these days, how's that sound?
I've been to the tower a couple of times but not recently, a good experience and well recommended.
So anyone got a date they'd like to put forward? what's best for you Geriatric Jet Jugler and your buddies.
I do have one question what's with the chick and her "Welcome back" I know CX thinks flying planes is like a mission to mars but I never thought ATC did.
Last edited by SMOC; 4th Sep 2006 at 15:54.
How's this
On HK radar heading HK to Kaoshiung. Cleared to FL 370.
We ask "Request amended FL330"
HK Radar - "Standby"
He then comes back snappily "climb amended FL 330, and I would appreciate it if next time you get your company to flight plan you at the level you would actually like."
We didn't even bother responding to that stupid comment.
NB - the controller was not a gweillo.
Usually more than happy with HK ATC (particularly when the gweillos are on)
On HK radar heading HK to Kaoshiung. Cleared to FL 370.
We ask "Request amended FL330"
HK Radar - "Standby"
He then comes back snappily "climb amended FL 330, and I would appreciate it if next time you get your company to flight plan you at the level you would actually like."
We didn't even bother responding to that stupid comment.
NB - the controller was not a gweillo.
Usually more than happy with HK ATC (particularly when the gweillos are on)
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electricjetjock,
Please read my posts, I never said controlling was easy
. Every job has its challenges, they have theirs and we have ours. The established call is made 12 nm out, the call I made at 5nm was more of a friendly reminder. How can you possibly be more diplomatic than asking him if he wishes us to remain on his frequency . Asking a question is not asking for a personalized service, having said that I am not flying my jet to please ATC, we all have our jobs to do, and if this particular controller is too sensitive to a harmless query, than I am afraid he is in the wrong line of work. I am sorry but you can't justify his actions no matter what the excuse. As I have said we are all professionals, and no one likes to be on the receiving end of a sarcastic remark, especially when it is not warranted. And YES I have previously visited a radar room.
Please read my posts, I never said controlling was easy
. Every job has its challenges, they have theirs and we have ours. The established call is made 12 nm out, the call I made at 5nm was more of a friendly reminder. How can you possibly be more diplomatic than asking him if he wishes us to remain on his frequency . Asking a question is not asking for a personalized service, having said that I am not flying my jet to please ATC, we all have our jobs to do, and if this particular controller is too sensitive to a harmless query, than I am afraid he is in the wrong line of work. I am sorry but you can't justify his actions no matter what the excuse. As I have said we are all professionals, and no one likes to be on the receiving end of a sarcastic remark, especially when it is not warranted. And YES I have previously visited a radar room.
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I think the majority of pilots opoerating in and more important out of HKG are aware of the "mainland" problem.
My point is, as long as there is no other means of flow control, slot allocation or metering, however you would like to call it, why not tell us that we have to wait due to, in this case, outbound traffic or a release from "the mainland" or what so ever.
To get me right, flying to a lot of odd places around the globe, HKG atc is doing an excelent job, especially when keeping in mind the tiny airspace and the before mentioned "mainland problem". I am not fishing for compliments here, just to get this right.
This forum is a good place for ALL participating in aviation to share their opinions and last but not least to ask questions, rise concerns or even make a suggestion. Comunication is verything as we all certainly know.
My point is, as long as there is no other means of flow control, slot allocation or metering, however you would like to call it, why not tell us that we have to wait due to, in this case, outbound traffic or a release from "the mainland" or what so ever.
To get me right, flying to a lot of odd places around the globe, HKG atc is doing an excelent job, especially when keeping in mind the tiny airspace and the before mentioned "mainland problem". I am not fishing for compliments here, just to get this right.
This forum is a good place for ALL participating in aviation to share their opinions and last but not least to ask questions, rise concerns or even make a suggestion. Comunication is verything as we all certainly know.
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How's this
On HK radar heading HK to Kaoshiung. Cleared to FL 370.
We ask "Request amended FL330"
HK Radar - "Standby"
He then comes back snappily "climb amended FL 330, and I would appreciate it if next time you get your company to flight plan you at the level you would actually like."
We didn't even bother responding to that stupid comment.
NB - the controller was not a gweillo.
Usually more than happy with HK ATC (particularly when the gweillos are on)
On HK radar heading HK to Kaoshiung. Cleared to FL 370.
We ask "Request amended FL330"
HK Radar - "Standby"
He then comes back snappily "climb amended FL 330, and I would appreciate it if next time you get your company to flight plan you at the level you would actually like."
We didn't even bother responding to that stupid comment.
NB - the controller was not a gweillo.
Usually more than happy with HK ATC (particularly when the gweillos are on)
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Not an excuse for sarcasm on r/t, but morale in HK ATC is at the rock bottom right now.
Everyone, not just expats is unhappy with the situation the government has put us in.
Salary is back to before handover (most of us less than Cathay housing allowance
), some have to do radar but not get paid for it . Allowances cut and continuous overtime (unpaid) is ongoing. Thousands of hours all together and seems they will have no chance to pay it back. Our leave roster put on the board today. In December only one, yes ONE, approach controller got leave, only ONE enroute controller got leave and 3 lucky people in the tower got leaves. Standby for mutiny!
Still traffic grows every month and AA wants more slots. Goverment has no forward thinking a few years back - froze recrutment, pay, training, force 10 expats to leave each year. Now they expect miracles.
Sorry to you guys if it means a lot more holding or delay at the gate but we are just as sick of it as you.
"Welcome Back"
Everyone, not just expats is unhappy with the situation the government has put us in.
Salary is back to before handover (most of us less than Cathay housing allowance
), some have to do radar but not get paid for it . Allowances cut and continuous overtime (unpaid) is ongoing. Thousands of hours all together and seems they will have no chance to pay it back. Our leave roster put on the board today. In December only one, yes ONE, approach controller got leave, only ONE enroute controller got leave and 3 lucky people in the tower got leaves. Standby for mutiny!Still traffic grows every month and AA wants more slots. Goverment has no forward thinking a few years back - froze recrutment, pay, training, force 10 expats to leave each year. Now they expect miracles.
Sorry to you guys if it means a lot more holding or delay at the gate but we are just as sick of it as you.
"Welcome Back"
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Aerial Prima Donnas
SuzieWong: You are all doing a fantastic job, don't take it personal when a few tired, fatigued, aerial prima donnas get snappy over the radio.
Some people behind the wheel will always feel as if they are the only airplane in the sky. ...It's not just a problem confined to HKG.
Some people behind the wheel will always feel as if they are the only airplane in the sky. ...It's not just a problem confined to HKG.
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No Glueball, you are wrong. We are not "all" doing a fantastic job, some definitely make things hard, not just for you drivers, but for some of us who have to work with these people. It is the same with your lot, there are great people to fly with, and there are (a small number of) a***holes who make life unpleasant, there always has been and always will be. The advantage that you have, is that if you are with a colleague who thinks that his (or her) middle name is Orville Wright, the chances are, is that you will say goodbye at the end of your flight, and you may not see them again. Not us, we have a far more intensively "group" type situation where by you can be assured that "Mr Difficult" today will be back at the workplace as "Mr Difficult" tomorrow, and still being the same unhelpful self. This applies equally to expats and locals. It would be good to have more social interaction between the two groups (pilot/ATC), but you know big cities, at the end of the day, one just wants to get home.