Direct Entry Hiring
 

Seems like they've relabeled "Direct Entry" to "Advanced Entry" and just took away the Expat benefits. If the AOA doesn't put a stop to this, its a matter of time before no one is on Expat terms.

Waterskier

And what would you suggest they do?

Really!? "Advanced Entry – a 30-week programme for applicants who possess an ICAO CPL and have in excess of 250 hours flight time in specified categories."

Considering it requires you to attend a flight school for over 7 months doesn't qualify as Direct Entry. Either way, it's the DEFO recruitment we should be worried about / looking out for...

404 Titan
Are you serious?
What can the AOA do?

I don't know...ummmm....maybe what the flight attendants Union does when they take umbrage.

In fact the course is much shorter and they require 1500 hours and ATPL or passes in ATPL exams. DESO used to be 1000 hours. I know no one got in with that but to me DESO is now a quick cadet course without expat benefits.

raven11

Yeh I’m deadly serious. We, the members are the AOA not the committee etc. If you think for one second there will be any unity in the CX pilot ranks to stop what the company is doing with regards the iCadet scheme especially under the labour laws that exist here in Hong Kong, you are seriously living in cloud coo coo land. That is what I meant when I say “what can the AOA do about it”? Are you going to go on strike and risk not only your job and your right to live in Hong Kong but also all your assets when the company sues you and your family for everything you own because of the losses they've incurred as a result of your illegal industrial action. We live in Hong Kong you know where big business runs the show.

As for the flight attendants, for the majority of them, they have nothing to lose. They’re here for a good time, not a long time. Also don’t overstate their victories. For the most part the company gets what they want in the end.

What everyone should be taking away from this is the lack of sustainability of this program alone.

Advanced Entry name change, elimination of housing allowance, DFO comments regarding recruitment of HK locals...

Read between the lines, folks...

Wow!
 

404 titan,

That has got to be one of the most ignorant posts I have read in a long time!

I am waiting to see if the GC and our management are jolted into action by the impending/possible arrival of PLK - aka, the man with the famous political last name.

Often communicated election platform issues - his stance on DECs, AHK, USAB Freighter conditions/pay etc. - should make him a shoe-in for election to the GC.

With PLK as the lynchpin of a multi-pronged offence, we could confront management in the way JFK dealt with USSR in the Cuban Missile Crisis - strength.

Our tactics could include a blockade of CX City, placing our front-line pilots on alert to strike from their global bases, and we could activate our top secret sleeper unit (code named "G day workers") to glean invaluable humint (human intelligence) on our adversary's counter-tactics.

The inevitable standoff could then set up a hotline of communication between our sides? Then we could discuss openly, and immediately, the issues that two HK aviation superpowers need to address.

S11max is smoking crack!!!

As pilots, we need to deal with reality. If you want fantasy, head over to Disneyland and watch Asian girls dress up as Sleeping Beauty.

Fight the battles we can win... I'm with 404 on this thread.

CXorcist

Contract Compliance, and a training ban on new joiners who undercut current conditions would be a good start.

Training ban: a request made by wimps who don't have the b*lls to strike!

:yuk:

I said a 'good START', Holer. I guess you couldn't wait to type another 'rah rah' statement on an anonymous forum; easy, isn't it?

And the issue of striking under Hong Kong labour law has been done to death.

cxorcist,

Seriously man, you are one of the reasons I read (and occasionally write on) pprune. When I get bored, or depressed at being a CX pilot, I can always read posts from people who need to get a f#cking grip, and it gives me a laugh.

Obviously, I was taking the p#ss....

You're a clown!

:) s11max

Another conversation:
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...a-c-scale.html

I am with Capt Dart entirely.

True, fight battles you can win but at the very least offer a public statement and stance on the issue. At the same time at what stage do the battles keep getting more difficult to win? The line in the sand only seems to retreat.

Supply and demand. Again, very true. One opinion mentioned is the training ban. That'll cut off the supply leaving demand screaming. One would think measures would be in succession of severity. For example: 1) refusal of CX pilots to be involved with the C-Scale recruitment process at any stage; 2) a training ban placed on C-Scale pilots; 3) strike action.

It starts with the very basic publicised and up front stance and statement from the AOA.

Dart, I guess a training ban doesn't apply to those who take commands (as upgrades from F/O) like it didn't during the 49ers... it only applies to the poor pilots who are looking to earn more money for less work but shouldn't because some wussie union makes a RISK-FREE proclamation that they shouldn't join the airline.

Of course this forum is anonymous. Why even bring up the point? If I want to rah rah onymously I'll go to the AOA forum. You?

Training bans are for wussies.

Anyone thinking of joining who adheres to a training ban does it because he or she realizes that he or she would be joining an airline with a wussie union and wants no part of it.

No risk, no reward. STRIKE=RISK. TRAINING BAN=NO RISK

:yuk:

PLK will be put in his place and told to conform like the rest of the "outspoken" ones who make in onto the GC. Where have they all gone???
He wants to stick up for freighter crews.... If that means he wants to rant and rave about flying pax aircraft, getting early commands, and getting pax pay then he's not getting my vote.

You can force a 5000hr+ heavy jet guy to sit in flight school for 7 months if you want. It doesn't make it right. Having said that, we know no-one with that experience would apply.

Geh065,


Its not only 5000+ jet guys that wont apply.
Guys blasting around in Q400's etc wont apply either.

Starting my aviation career I have always aspired to fly for Cathay, but the reality is that it is now no longer financially attractive (or viable).
No housing allowance and reduced pay means that I would be struggling for the next 6 years........mate, I already did that in GA....Im not going back to that.
I turned Cathay down for an interview last year and promised to call them back in a year......but on those T&C's I just wont do it.

The question is.....is there enough SO's accepting this 'C-scale'?
With the a/c orders for Cathay one would imagine that if not many people are accepting this deal then eventually they are going to have to improve the T&C's.
I hold out hope that they do bring back the housing allowance as if they do, I'll be there in a second.


Eternity.

Eternity, like you I turned them down.

Apparently the takers for the short course(s), ie those with experience are not so many but they are inundated for positions for the full course, ie ZERO to <250 hrs.

And yes, guys with Q400 time (one guy boasts of 3400 hrs TT) are apparently taking it up. Absolutely crazy when there are jobs in the ME and Sth East Asia, as well as China screaming for guys where minimums can be as low as 500 hrs TT and up to 1000-1500 hrs TT for RHS gig on an A320 or 73NG - and on a damn sight better pay packet.

They say there are no jobs out there. Like hell there isn't. They just deem GA too hard or prefer to exist with the blinkers on.

Take a look at the wannabe forums for the style of candidate CX now attracts.

All this in a recent period of record profits and on course to do it again.

Sad. When CX used to be (amongst) the pinacle and admired by so many in the airline world. Great legacy TT. Well done RH. Laughing all the way to the bank without a conscience to care about.

I'm wondering if they could change their mind, should a news article pop up in i.e. SCMP or FT, about how Cathay doesn't care about experience in the flight deck anymore?

Chinabeached

Zero chance of any of those jobs in the ME or China getting you eventually from right to left seat even if Q400 time somehow gets you RHS in a widebody. Anywhere in the ME that is taking you from RHS to LHS is employing you with similar 330/777 time already. The terms "Contract job" and "command upgrade" won't ever go into the same sentence. Go look at what is happening at the ME carriers with regards to guys with B737 or RJ time trying to get in.

You in something with propellers, you don't wanna be no more, you wanna bee in something with two isles, there are f*ck all choices out there...............

stillalbatross..... I did it & am doing it. Cmd progression for expats does happen.

I can speak of many others in the same situation: colleagues at the same airline as me & a few other carriers I know. I met a guy from Italy who obtained an A320 Cmd with 1800 hrs TT after joining with just over 700 hrs TT (Chinese regional carrier).

But you are right in some aspects in that A LOT of research & planning needs to be considered as some positions are wolves in sheep's clothing. Which is not unlike any other job in almost any airline today.

FO on E190 or A320 is 85grand AUS$ base. The Cathay Cadet is 74grand base. Plus you get 110grand aussie forgiveable loan with cathay which, i dont know about you guys but would take me about 5+ yrs to save.

built4flying83

I assume you are 28 years old from you handle. AUD$110K = about AUD$3K per year for the rest of your career at CX. Pretty pathetic really when you realise the guy sitting next to you gets more than double that for his housing per month. Something you don’t.

thats if you stay in hong kong for your career...
but the guys vefore those guys were probably on close to double aswell, all i care about is that i will be earning the same or very possibly more than the smaller jet guys in 5-10yrs on bigger airbus or boeing

built4flying83

I reckon you are either a liar, ie in one thread you have 3000 hours TT and a few posts further on (see below) you say you have close to 4000 hours TT, or you are a troll posting posts from the third floor.
Where do you get 74 grand base from? Even if you include HKPA + HDP you are about AUD$5000 off. All you may care about now is earning more than smaller jet guys but do you care that by accepting this offer you will be helping to push down the T&C of existing CX pilots? Of course you think an FO earns 93 base as well and you will be an SO for only 2-3 years.

SO year one = HK$35170 pm
+
HKPA = HK$10000 pm
+
HDP = HK$3314 pm based on working 84 hours month – 3 weeks annual leave. HDP isn’t paid when on annual leave or sick leave.
=
HK$48484 pm
=
HK$581808 py
=
AUD$69260 py

You"ll also get an extra HK$187000 tax bill on top of your normal tax from the IRD.

You know what the hardest thing about being a liar is? Keeping the story consistant.

How much would housing cost him, let's say a medium sized 2-3 bedroom flat in Central?

Cumguzzler

If he was actually a wannabe with SSJS, a lot. I suspect though he is a troll.

Small to Medium sized units (Central)

Without punching in the numbers on the site there, i'd guess about 30-50k per month!

Apparently, rents are rocketing in HK. A mate (nothing to do with airlines; self employed and doing well) has just left HK forever. His landlord jacked the rent up by 20%, which was the final straw, so he left. I have heard similar tales from other sources.

Good breakdown 404!!!

Unfortunately, math does not mean anything to the irrational guys taking the offer. They would rather compare it to regional jobs in their home countries and ignore the obvious facts about career earnings and the very high expenses of Hong Kong living. That brand new tripler just looks too good (NR was right about SJS).

I've had the pleasure of running into a few of these guys lately. They look and act like a bunch of second lieutenants fresh out of flight school, except of course they have had far less quality training than a military pilot. I fear the days when these guys are captains, and God forbid the days when they run the AOA. Talk about growing up in a Cathay petri-dish... They will make our current DESO 30 year old wonder captains look like space shuttle commanders. So much for high standards at CX... No amount of pedanticism and cockpit rigidity will compensate for this inexperience.

CXorcist

PS - Sorry S11Max for missing your sarcasm. Guess I was unable to see the humor in your post, but thanks for your valuable pprune contributions.

"They look and act like a bunch of second lieutenants fresh out of flight school, except of course they have had far less quality training than a military pilot."

Nicely summed up Cxexocist.

It's not their fault, it's obvious they don't know any better.....Cathay on the other hand, should.

Another major aspect of life in Hong Kong so many of these young "cadets" do not appreciate is that their new life will be in Hong Kong, China! As in Hong Kong, China!!! It's not Australia, Canada, or the UK......it's in China!

After a short while they will desperately miss home. Two or three trips back to their home country each year, to visit family and loved ones, will cost a minimum of $10,000 Aus. It is an understatement to say that Standby Travel is not free, quite the contrary, it is expensive! With most flights full these days, traveling at full cost will not be uncommon.

Take off the rose-coloured glasses kids, open your ears, and listen to what people are trying to tell you.

Titan 404 Did you want my full name and address aswell?
yeah i care, do you care for the first 4 yrs my average salary is 35g AUS / annum, in the last 3 years its gone up to a whopping 42g AUS / annum....well do ya? this aint sitting in a shiny jet either, this is in the slums.

i am 5 grand off? ill have to check the numbers again, dont think your calcs included the 5-7grand bonus you get a year.

so whats that lets say its 20,000 aus tax, so instead of 110,000 it will be 90,000. still pretty good.

You know what the hardest thing about being a selfish 42 yr old who looks at younger pilots with contempt................ not being one!

Hey out of curiosity, what did you say to the A and quite possibly B scalers, when you signed for lesser conditions?

If this self-centred fool is for real and is indicative of the attitude and mentality of future new joiners - we're doomed!:ugh:

Hope you like making bunks pal................:ok:

scavengepump nice response..... tool. Debate it!... dont just chuck your hands up in the air and make a stupid comment. Still no one answers my last question on the previous post?

built4lying83: I think your posts are best suited here: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...verywhere.html or at the very least read it.....

And for the record, in your first 4 years you earned DOUBLE than most GA pilots ever do or did. If not 100% more if counting the hanger rats or those who worked for free for their first year. I was lucky to earn a few extra dollars as also worked part time in a bar. Then after your first 4 years you earned even more again. May pay went BACKWARDS when I landed a, then, dream job as an FO on a turboprop, because that was what it took to progress my career. You just have a severe case of entitlement as do so many other iCadet sell-outs.

So, with your 3000 ? 4000 ?? .....Oh screw it. Let's cut to the chase: just landed the Space Shuttle and therefore redundant with 85,000 hrs: after all, let's continue the bull$hitting?? How proud you must be to be interviewing for the same job where kids as young as 18 with ZERO hours or experience are deemed just as good and worthy as you are for an iCadet SO position.

There could be a reason why with all your fictitious hours you have not progressed as you deem you should. So of course, jump in to a CX iCadet SO position where the min standard is, well: zero experience.

So you want to debate the FACTS? You've picked a fight on thread where airline pilots (CX and other) offer advice, opinons and facts based on first hand "experience" with CX, at CX and in HK and you label those who either call you out for bull$hitting your hours (classy, professional....?) or challenge your point of view as "tools".

If you want a few threads where your ignorant and naive and less than honest status is applauded and supported then do so on the Wannabe forums. There you'll find all kinds of similar characters who will support your cause for many hundreds of pages. If you genuinely seek facts and opinons from those with that "experience" thing then receive the answers with the slightest bit of integrity let alone humility that your redundant Space Shuttle Cmdr title and 85,000 hrs of stature deserve.

Well done CB for taking the time to attempt to educate our young friend above - you are a better man than me............

'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink' springs to mind.

Join up all you lot - fill ya' boots. The first one of you i catch whinging and moaning about how 'tough' you are doing it in HK..........welllllllll:\

and still no one answers my last question on the previous post?
when i look at my 3 logbooks and then look at your comments that im making it up, i realise you have got that wrong so good chance you have got most other things wrong too. FACT

I'll ask again for the slow minded...What did you say to the A scalers when you joined?