All this at the airline you refuse to name.


Ok, so while we are in the business of being fictitious, i'm an A-scaler and i don't like what pratts like you have done to the industry.

Hihi,

CB has been very clear and lucid in his explanations....you on the other hand continue to offer us nothing but your petulance. He is also a proven commodity who has made the grade, at a time when doing so actually required certain character traits.

I fear that you represent the bottom of the barrel some airlines seem content in scraping to find recruits at the least cost.

But I should fear not, Cathay still has certain character standards and a first rate training department, outside the reach of the bean counters, that will weed out the likes of you.

So please return to your video games.....you've outstayed your welcome here. This is the Professional Pilots Rumor Network....

This whole thread is about a bunch of bitter B scalers who want someone to blame about the reduction in T&C and dump that on the poor sods who currently only have the option of C scale. No doubt if the forum was around back early 90's when B scale was first muted, and let's not forget B scale plus, those who turned it down would be whining at those who took it.

This is CX, it is every man for himself and guys will do/take whatever they feel is best for them. Freighter command, same job for less money. How in the fu*k can having smaller numbers on your pay packet be a good thing. Simple according to the AOA, it suits guys who don't want to be paid very much but who want a command. Can't argue with that.

It has been seen again and again. The only way to up C scale is if those already in CX say no new joiners on any package but the current B scale one. Not in a zillion billion years will anyone presently employed by the company collectively take that stand. The A scalers tried.

The hypocrisy is unbelievable, CB how can you go on and on about a job that you happily turned down, let it the fu*k go. Life is too short.

You've yet to offer anything of substance to this discussion, Raven. Be sure to let me know when you do.

Differences between A to B and B to C
 

Those joining on B scales were joining on a package that still provided a very decent living in HKG. A scalers knew this. The same cannot be said for C scale. Everyone knows this...except those joining, but they will very soon...

A scale was an above market rate pay package. The same cannot be said for the current B scale package which is at best market rate. C scale is well below market rate when considering the cost of living in HKG. Just ask the current CEP/LEP group.

B scale still attracted a very capable pool of applicants. C scale has attracted a vast pool of zero experience applicants with a smattering of under qualified pilots with some flight experience. Most would not have qualified under the old DESO program and certainly not as DEFOs.

So I think we all need to admit that A to B is not anything like the current move from B to C. Those who think it is the same are only fooling themselves to their own detriment.

HiHi

More petulance.....?

CB is 100% right about you. What kind of upside down universe do you live in?

The substance of my arguements lad (or is it Lassie?) are based on my experience after nearly 40 years of flying and 22,000 hours. Your peevish viewpoint, on the other hand, is based on the "aeronautical" licernce you bragged about holding. You're an amateur.......

Substantive enough for you?

Cxorcist, it's not about the dollars being paid or the benefits granted, it's about the principle. By your logic, it is ok to sell out your peers for the right price? That is a poor excuse if i ever heard one.

Raven, for all your experience you still fail to contribute anything of worth. Your licenses, ratings and hours mean little here. This is an internet forum, not a cockpit. Step up, provide a worthy argument, and genuinely rebut what you don't agree with, or f*ck off.

Hihi......

How do I even begin to respond to such a classless remark? Is using profanity your method of "stepping up and providing a worthy argument"..? You really are a tasteless little fellow.

But let me see if I understand you...you told us in an earlier post that you held an "aeronautical rating". As if that somehow qualified you to engage in a debate on this Airline Pilot's forum, aptly called the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. But then you posted that my "licenses, ratings and hours mean little here".

Hmmmmm.....my licenses, ratings, and hours mean nothing on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network...but your amateur aeronautical rating does.

Wow....

In related news...

Jetstar has recently had to raise its DEFO salary offer from an initial lowball offer (even though Australia and New Zealand have plenty of pilots meeting their hiring minimums). Lack of interest perhaps?

There has also been a recent Australian Government inquiry looking into Jetstar's plans to employ heavily indebted and indentured 200hr cadet pilots on salaries substantially lower than current FO rates. A resulting recommendation from the enquiry voted against this practice, which is now being further investigated for possible legislation changes. This is happening because voices within the Australian aviation industry, with the help of a conscientious senator, spoke loudly enough to be heard.

It takes time, but pilots (current and aspiring alike) don't have to roll over and accept whatever deal the bean counters throw at them.

The real losers here will be the traveling public and ultimately the CX shareholders. I have nothing but contempt and pity for the new hires and the new trainers. If you are a prospective newhire, have you really comprehended the dire situation you will find yourselves in once you have moved to HK. Be under no illusion that you will be living the life of indentured servitude. You will find yourself living a hand to mouth existence with a growing sense of bitterness and despair. You will realise that you accepted a foolish and crippling contract and that you are no better than slave labour. As for the the new trainers. What do you think you are doing? Do you really believe that you are accomplishing anything other than helping undermine your own career salary and benefits? You are truly the 'greater fools'. I will have nothing but contempt for you. At least we will all know your names. Hide your heads in shame please. Don't complain if CX reduces your pay and benefits in the next few years as they manage to start staffing with the D scalers you helped train. How on earth can you be so blind as to not see that you are being played for the 'village idiots' that you are. I hope you choke on your new 'titles'. A line check from you will be a joke. I hope you feel the contempt emanating from everyone of us. How desperate are you to join the training department at this crucial juncture? Pathetic, truly pathetic!

Raven, by aero's rating i was referring to an aerobatic rating, in response to your suggestion that i had probably never been upside down.

ATY,

Very well said!

Hihi,

Since when is it not about the money? Are you telling me that you are joining out of principle? Not sure what world you are living in, but in the real world one usually gets what is paid for. In the case of you and your peers, CX is not paying very much and WE are not getting much in return.

Do you think existing CX pilots want to worry every time we use the lav on a long haul? Do you think we will be better off not being able to take controlled rest in the seat on the back of the clock? Do you think we relish having to tell you "not to touch anything until I get back"? Do you think you will be respected as aviators worthy of flying wide-body aircraft across oceans?

The truth is that cadets have much higher command failure rates and take many more sectors accomplishing their JFO upgrades. This is due to inexperience before they joined CX. Growing up in a Cathay Petri Dish is not the best way to become a competent aviator. There are literally hundreds of hours of nothingness for every real learning opportunity.

Some will perform well due to hard work, determination, and talent. But many will fail because there was no previous experience to weed out the weak swimmers. Cathay is not the right place for this to occur because there are commercial pressures which will force some through. Then, as ATY said, CX passengers and shareholders will be the real losers. I would add CX employees to that list since we are all stakeholders in the airline.

You've somehow(!?) missed my point, cxorcist.

DB, i care little for your respect. I wasn't the first to start with profanities either.

DB-

Online behavior is often not very indicative of how we'd all act in person. It is all too easy to make pratts of ourselves behind the veil of anonymity. However, you are correct that there is no place for remarks such as i made earlier, and for that i do apologize. Raven, what i should have said is that i do have the upmost respect for your accomplishments, and in the cockpit i'd not question your contribution. However, on PPrune you can't substitute your seniority in place of an argument.

This whole argument is a bit off track, and i'll stop now as instead of making a point, i'm only making enemies.

In closing, i don't think the i-cadets are to blame for lowering the T&C's. That has already happened once before, and it'll probably happen again further down the track (look at how bad regional pilots in the States have it). As for the lowering of standards, i guess we'll find out what effects that'll have in the long run.

Hihi,

I did not miss your point. You are trying to conclude that those who took B scale somehow sold out A scale. I'm not sure you could find an A scaler who agrees. If anything, A scalers let down B scalers and themselves by allowing the introduction of a separate payscale in '94. It has been all downhill from then.

Nobody is accusing you of selling us out. You are selling yourselves and this profession out. You are bringing an insufficient skillset and selling it very cheaply because that is all it is worth. The profession and the flying public deserve better, and there is a whole generation of prospective direct entry qualified pilots out there who miss an opportunity because of CX's shortsightedness.

Hihi, you and your peers are not the problem. You are a symptom of the problem which is being self inflicted by CX. Don't take it personally. You are simply unqualified, and four plus years as an SO will do little to change that.

CXorcist

Some very good posts gentlemen....

Cxorcist, you are absolutely right when you said "If anything, A scalers let down B scalers and themselves by allowing the introduction of a separate payscale in '94. It has been all downhill from then."

I'm living proof of that. As an A scaler I now understand that we should have done something more back in 93. How successful we would have been is pure conjecture. We were facing a management that put a gun to our heads and was spoiling for a fight...we finally stood up to them in 99...shortly after which they fired 49 of our friends and colleagues.

My hope today is that market forces; and legislative IATA/ICAO/CAD initiatives to not allow low time, heavily indebted and indentured 200hr cadet pilots on salaries substantially lower than current FO rates (as Gligg stated) force them to rethink their hiring policy . Safety is their number one concern after all......

Be clear gentlemen. It's not the fault of the 0 time pilot trying to make a career in the world that your terms and conditions are deteriorating. It's your fault for allowing these terms to be implemented by your bosses. You have the power, they don't. Your expecting them to turn down basically a guaranteed ab initio program so you can stay fat and happy? Give me a break. Talk about misguided. It's your job to stand up, not them. They are the young ones looking forward... You are the spineless idiots looking backward. Stop expecting your kids to fight your battles for you.

EXACTLY.

No one now is willing to knock off one of the board to prove the point.
Thats how unions used to work. They used force till they got political will.
Right now all the unions can threaten is to say stop or they'll say stop again.

:ugh:

Widecut,

Before the Cadet program was opened up to international applicants, it was only available to Hong Kong residents with HKID cards. The majority of the Cadets that I know all lived in a family home with the rest of their family. Many couldn't afford to live on their own until they were on a decent FO scale.

Not a good comparison...

First Post
 

New joiner to PPRUNE I see Widecut. Funny isn't it how some people post such eloquent pro-company posts as their opening contribution.

Flaps 10 almost has it right, except:

In fact, there are more than a few local FOs who are still living with family.

The reason for employing expats is to take advantage of their experience. Asking someone to move their family internationally is no small thing, and the expat package makes that transition smoother.

More appropriately, the question should be: How many expat jobs in Hong Kong offer some form of living assistance (in forms such as housing, medical, schooling etc)?

Thinking of the expats I know, such as bankers, accountants, lawyers and the like, I would say most, if not all.

There is a solution, Widecut.

Contract Compliance and a training ban. Possibly a press campaign. There are also good people on this internet forum, amongst all the tripe being written, telling those considering this appalling package 'how it is' (or how it would be for them) regarding life in Hong Kong and with the airline.

Then, maybe, the airline will consider going back to what 'core values' it used to have and pay good money for quality crew. Win/win.

This is serious business. This is about undercutting crew who have worked damned hard to get where they are, and short term management savings to enhance bonuses, to the detriment of the company. It is also about the safety of the travelling public; there are serious questions being asked in some First World countries regarding the conditions of employment, experience levels and competence of up-and-coming airline pilots.

Sanctimonious posts about how we should 'all get along' and 'stop sniping' etc mean nothing.

Widecut.......you simply can't be a Cathay pilot and make the statements you did. Impossible! You're obviously a non-pilot attempting a stalking horse maneuver.....

As such, you would know that the Simulator department has recently conducted a hiring spree.....at first, they tried to recruit experienced pilots without offering housing allowance......but instead, only offered local terms. No new applicants would accept the job. None!

The Simulator Training Manager insisted to the recruiting department that they would not be able to recruit any new instructors until a housing allowance was back on the table. Result: Zero applicants accepted the job. It wasn't until the management got real and offered housing allowance that they were able to hire new instructors.

Your comparison to pilots not receiving housing allowance in their home countries is not comparing apples to apples. It must be apparent to you THAT WE LIVE IN CHINA!! If Cathay wants to recruit first world pilots to leave their home countries and MOVE THEIR FAMILIES TO CHINA, then they have to subsidize the move and pay housing allowance.

Your statement that we expect to be treated like a King or Queen is offensive.

Widecut=betpump5=IR=low level CX manager

British Airways In A Major Recruitment Drive

The retrenched RAF chappies who management tell us are coming to save the day will be interested :ok:.

What is the general feeling about the transition trained guys? The most recent interviews that have been conducted in Vancouver have all been guys with 3-4000 hours with PIC and turbo-prop and some jet experience even. There has been a lot of talk about all the new hires being no-talent clowns but there are hopefully a few experienced guys on their way over.

Also I am curious about what an experienced pilot is supposed to do if they were to get a call from CX offering an interview and eventually maybe a job. Turn it down on principle? Even if that happened and then the COS changed and people were hired with better contracts and the world was happy once again, should I feel good about my service to the industry while I'm still slogging around the coast in my turbo-prop? And that's a serious question. I realize the importance of standards in the industry but what pilot is going to sacrifice himself for the better of the rest? Indeed, there will always be a Joe Blow breathing down your neck waiting for you to stumble so he can trample over you to the "Major Airline" promise land.

Looking out for number 1 seems to be what we have always done, yes?

Look after number 1
 

In that case mtc, take a good look at the CX package with the local terms on offer. Don't convert the salary to you home currency (CAD based on your "location"), but investigate what the spending power of that salary is in HK. Make sure you look at it on a total career earnings basis, with realistic upgrade times, and realistic lifestyle changes, such as education (BIG $$) for children in the future, and lifestyle options for your spouse, even if you have neither a spouse or children yet.

At the moment, a new joiner today will likely face 4 years as SO, followed by probably 10 to 11 years minimum as an FO before even thinking about command. These numbers will likely not improve, but actually get worse.

As harsh as it sounds, I suspect that anyone with 3-4000 hrs who joins on local terms will receive very little sympathy from the rest of us if they ever lament their financial struggles.

And don't even think that a base is an option. It's not the easy path that the management might be trying to sell to you. There are no basings for SOs (see above 4 years min), then you get to upgrade & join the queue for an FO base. Without knowing your specific basing preference I can't comment specifically, but the truth is that many FO bases are full with a waiting list, and some guys on them have foregone command to remain on their base as an FO whilst awaiting a command base vacancy (in seniority order), which, to be honest, is a case of waiting for someone to die or retire.

As an added incentive, speak to an SO who was looking for a FO base in the future, who has now lost that opportunity because the company hired direct entry FOs on some bases, and although the base slots were offered "in house" first, SOs weren't able to bid on them.

Add in the fact that CX has made such a hash of basings with onshoring, legal & tax issues, that they have frozen bases for the time being, so no one can get one at the moment, until they sort the mess out.


So, if you really are objective about what CX are offering, your rejection of the current new joiner contract will not be a "service to the industry" as you put it, but a case of looking after number 1.

broadband is absolutely right....

Cathay used to offer top of the line contracts to its pilots, and as such had no trouble recruiting the very best pilots from around the world. Every single pliot recruited was hired either directly from another main line carrier, or they were the very best pilots from the military. Every pilot on the planet was trying to get in.

A cost cutting culture took hold in the nineties, that continues to run on inertia today.....with a central strategy to offer new pilots less and less benefits with the aim being to save more and more money. Obviously, this had a direct bearing on the quality of new hires. Reaching its nadir today where high quality, experienced pilots don't even bother to apply. Instead, they seem content to hire candidates with zero experience, offer to train them, as long as the new hires agree to local terms (read no housing allowance).

As broadband stated, there is zero chance of getting a base....the basing system is in a mess, and as such, they've been completely frozen....and you can't live in Hong Kong with what is being offered today. You simply can't.

Those of us living in Hong Kong do so on our old contracts. It would not be possible to live here and raise a family on what is being offered in the new contracts. Impossible.

Cathay is a great Airline to fly for, but the flying will wear thin very quickly if you can't support your family, or save for a decent retirement....I suggest you wait until a better (read...more realistic) package is offered.

Bscales started it all
 

Raven, A scale didn't let down B scale. The AOA sent out letters to all prospective B scalers pointing out the high cost of living in HK and that the package was not good enough etc. It was meant as a read between the lines...don't come here right now. But they did. They offered to do our jobs for less. What is it people that offer to do someone elses job for less are called? Of course once CX reliezed people would come they went lower, and lower and lower. I am guessing you dont like having others undercut your position, convienent memory. Yes we could have walked off the job back then, but then again so could have you when they brought in ASL or the last direct entry group or any number of new contracts. Perhaps all B scalers could have refused commands until the deal was corrected or no S/O upgrade until they dropped the direct entry idea last time. Don't point the finger just at A scale there are lots of fingers pointing backwards at you.

Quick question, are there not blokes who refused to sign for the great pay reduction of the A scale? My understanding they are about 25 in number, so you are right that A scale didn't let down B scale. A scale let down A scale............wake up.

Cxflyer......?

You missundersood me mate......I am an A scaler! I'm not pointing a finger at anyone???

My intention was to give a brief history of why things are the way they are.....and to let new joiners know the reality regarding the cost of living in Hong Kong.

raven you would be retiring soon wouldnt you?

take the rest of your ex military buddies with you :)

cost of living in hong kong is no secret classified document, i've done the research

Geesh......

Builtforflying (gag..) you're just the candidate they're looking for.....in the mean time, why don't you return to the wannabe forum where you normally hang out.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not retiring for about 10 years......apparently I'm still needed to ensure the passengers get to their destination safely.....

That kind of says everything one needs know about candidates like you.

Oh i thought it was only new hires that could stay on to 65 and current forced retirement age was 55 as they know the baby boomers keep hanging around to the last thread, fuddy duddy or not, sorta like the war heroes you had to put up with.....:ugh:

Builtforflying.....

What......???

You said earlier you had done the research....well obviously, you haven't.

Even as incoherent as your last post was, try using the spell check feature next time...

Gawd help us!!

I originally thought Built4PrisonRape was a management plant, but i'm completely positive that he is just a Troll. Stop wasting our time please.

don't think too much Whatthe?, you might hurt yourself. i.e wrong on both counts.

hows the dash 8 treating you? still think its like a 747, only slower and lower :ugh:how bout 300ppl less too..
you follow a cathay thread when you turned down the deal? of course you are only going to see it one sided from this point in, even if they jack up the conditions you'll still try to justify your decision of turning it down.

built4flying83

You are a sanctimonious little pr*ck aren’t you? You ridicule someone because they knocked back a job with CX yet you couldn’t even pass an interview with Jetstar last August. Maybe Jetstar got confused with your hours because you obviously are? Was it 4000 hours or only 3000 hours? Maybe they got dazzled with your Bachelor Science Aviation degree?:yuk:

Let me give you a little advice. Applicants for the “Transitional” course are very thin on the ground at CX. Contrary to popular belief interviewers do peruse a number of social forums including this one. It won’t take them very long to work out who you are. After all there aren’t many applicants with 3-4000 hours total, work for a regional airline in Australia, have a Bachelor Science Aviation degree and are in their late 20’s.