Fakers, fakers everywhere!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Uluru
Age: 78
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fakers, fakers everywhere!
The recent revelations of fakers in India, Turkey and the Far East has led to bar room allegations, misinformation, lies and downright disinformation.
A few acquaintances had asked me about their suspicions of certain individuals who I had the misfortune of association by nationality and being colleagues with. I cannot lie outright and I do not wish to damage the livelihood of such individuals. All I can say is that the dispute of 1989 down under did indeed lead to certain persons venturing to some obscure corners of the world and obtaining command positions by dubious means. Of course they were hardpressed by the pressing demands of bread and butter issues; but there was no excuse to use dubious methods to obtain command postions. The aviation world then did have ample opportunities for them to move up the food chain HONORABLY but some chose the dirty way out. These individuals know who they are and eventually some chickens will come home to roost.
The lessons for young wannabes now is that there are ample, ample opportunities to do thing the bona fide way and do so proudly, honorably with a sense of achievement which no one can take away from you. The fakers will forever have a cloud over their head and conscience.
A few acquaintances had asked me about their suspicions of certain individuals who I had the misfortune of association by nationality and being colleagues with. I cannot lie outright and I do not wish to damage the livelihood of such individuals. All I can say is that the dispute of 1989 down under did indeed lead to certain persons venturing to some obscure corners of the world and obtaining command positions by dubious means. Of course they were hardpressed by the pressing demands of bread and butter issues; but there was no excuse to use dubious methods to obtain command postions. The aviation world then did have ample opportunities for them to move up the food chain HONORABLY but some chose the dirty way out. These individuals know who they are and eventually some chickens will come home to roost.
The lessons for young wannabes now is that there are ample, ample opportunities to do thing the bona fide way and do so proudly, honorably with a sense of achievement which no one can take away from you. The fakers will forever have a cloud over their head and conscience.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Isle of Wight
Age: 54
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Potteroo........you are wise but too generous to a fault.
Fakers, fakers....the scourge which never seem to go away. Just the other day, someone asked; what if a faker is involved in a prang with fatalities. The insurance companies are going to dig and dig deep into the background of the commander and his crew. What if the faker is found out and the insurance company refuses to pay? What if you are unfortunate enough to be part of that crew complement and your family cannot get the insurance after your sad demise?
Fakers, fakers....the scourge which never seem to go away. Just the other day, someone asked; what if a faker is involved in a prang with fatalities. The insurance companies are going to dig and dig deep into the background of the commander and his crew. What if the faker is found out and the insurance company refuses to pay? What if you are unfortunate enough to be part of that crew complement and your family cannot get the insurance after your sad demise?
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UAE
Age: 60
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahhh.....after the 1989 ozzie pilot debacle some made their transit through South East Asia before moving to " greater " things! On the short sojourn in our land, our DCA was quite thorough in the assessment of their qualifications and a number were only qualified as copilots. Quite a number left for some " obscure " corners of the world and lo and behold, in a short period of a few years many of these boy wonders became captains on wide bodies in Korea, Kuwait, etc. Wow, talk of a magical ride on Alladin's magic carpet. Good on you fellas. But I surely don't want my family to travel on your flights; so please can anybody advise if the insurance issue pointed out earlier will be a problem?
Join Date: May 2004
Location: world
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many, faced with a company hours requirement, have sharp pencilled their logbooks? I know of one who was discovered, and demoted back to F/O when he was found out, lucky not to have been sacked, and another who aroused many suspicions but got away with it, both in a smallish carrier. I’m sure it is prevalent throughout the world.
Person Of Interest
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Age: 68
Posts: 842
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
xrba said it all...but then, who is going to turn in the captain for his/her inabilities??? it's the system what allows this...not the pilot getting away with it...
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Yakima
Age: 59
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fakers, the bane of the aviation brotherhood! Several of our Canucks were denied their rightful place on the B744 in KAL because of despicable fakers from Sud Aprika!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: ...
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A certain Central American country seemed tro be the source of some "wonderous" command hours for a few "truly blessed" Antipodeans around the time the Berlin Wall tumbled. One or two of them went on to "wonderously" accellerated careers on the strength of those magical command hours.
... and of course everyone posting here meets their own legal requirement to keep their logbook up to date after each flight ... 
A half-decent logbook audit by the hiring company would fix this.
A half-decent logbook audit by the hiring company would fix this.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: FL370
Age: 61
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Rightful place...????"
Space Needle.. (Somewhat Freudian..?) Where, in your evidently over developed sense of entitlement, do you arrive at the conclusion that ANY job at a foreign carrier (KAL), "rightfully", should go to "Canucks"?
Perhaps you should refer to a thread contained in "Fragrant Harbour" regarding said Canucks working illegally in the US and taking jobs which, in that case, are "RIGHTFULLY" jobs for yanks. Makes one think..
Got a bit of a chip on the old shoulder eh,?
Perhaps you should refer to a thread contained in "Fragrant Harbour" regarding said Canucks working illegally in the US and taking jobs which, in that case, are "RIGHTFULLY" jobs for yanks. Makes one think..
Got a bit of a chip on the old shoulder eh,?
Last edited by jojojett; 12th Apr 2011 at 16:17. Reason: sp
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: behind you
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ramifications can be dire or laughable depending on your airline/seniority/record, etc. Senior Captain from back home got no more than a slap on the wrist when it cropped up that he'd doctored his log 20+ years ago in his pre-airline days. He's a good bloke, had a great record and was due to retire in the next few years so they let it slide but the fact of the matter is that his career progression wouldn't have happened at the pace it did had he been honest.
For the rest of us...keep your nose clean and don't be cheeky, it all catches up.
For the rest of us...keep your nose clean and don't be cheeky, it all catches up.
I know of one who was discovered, and demoted back to F/O
If the company didn't have the balls for that, he/she should have been sacked without notice or pay for gross misconduct.
I bet they didn't even inform their NAA. Scared of opening a can of worms, maybe?
No wonder fakers proliferate.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: world
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
onb et al, a correction.
On second thoughts, I can’t remember the full details as the incident was decades ago, but probably the miscreant falsified the company forms only, making legal action unlikely to be appropriate. The advantage gained would be the same, however.
In the RAF my logbooks were checked and signed monthly, and inspected by the CAA for initial licence issue. Thereafter in civil aviation, they never received more than a cursory glance by any company, so the opportunities for fraud are abundant.
On second thoughts, I can’t remember the full details as the incident was decades ago, but probably the miscreant falsified the company forms only, making legal action unlikely to be appropriate. The advantage gained would be the same, however.
In the RAF my logbooks were checked and signed monthly, and inspected by the CAA for initial licence issue. Thereafter in civil aviation, they never received more than a cursory glance by any company, so the opportunities for fraud are abundant.
But even RAF hours are easy to 'pad'. One pilot in my last airline was in the race for a command and got it ahead of some of his peers who were also ex-RAF. thye smelled a rat and pinted out that as a FJ pilot in the RAF, it was fairly unlikey he had been flying 600 hours a year. Further scrutiny and some minimal checking showed the fraud and he was sacked.
And even worse, Air 2bob (I think) had a an ex RAF pilot who got his command and had his logbbok insopected by a manager who couldn't remeber the guy, even though he claimed to be on the same Sqn at the same time. It turns out he was really an air trafficker and his whole RAF flying career was an invention! He was prosecuted for fraud and sacked, but is now back flying.
And close scrutiny of logbooks isn't the answer either. In Italy, every flight has to be counterstamped by an official, but flase hours are endemic there. My company won't lokk at anyone with an Italian licence (amongst other countries) due to the level of hours fraud there.
These fraudsterss are dishonest to their colleagues, a liability to thier passengers and employers and technically criminals. I've heard of people bragging about P51 (Parker 51!) hours, the people passing on the story who didn't do anything about it were equally as guilty. The only policy acceptable is reporting these dangers to themselves and theer passengers to the authorities.
And if you think this is a bit extreme, those of you who have read Ernest Gann's autoboigraphy ''Fate is the Hunter'' will recall his remorse in not doing something about a pilot who was obviously a fraud who subsequently went on to kill himself and all his passengers.
And even worse, Air 2bob (I think) had a an ex RAF pilot who got his command and had his logbbok insopected by a manager who couldn't remeber the guy, even though he claimed to be on the same Sqn at the same time. It turns out he was really an air trafficker and his whole RAF flying career was an invention! He was prosecuted for fraud and sacked, but is now back flying.
And close scrutiny of logbooks isn't the answer either. In Italy, every flight has to be counterstamped by an official, but flase hours are endemic there. My company won't lokk at anyone with an Italian licence (amongst other countries) due to the level of hours fraud there.
These fraudsterss are dishonest to their colleagues, a liability to thier passengers and employers and technically criminals. I've heard of people bragging about P51 (Parker 51!) hours, the people passing on the story who didn't do anything about it were equally as guilty. The only policy acceptable is reporting these dangers to themselves and theer passengers to the authorities.
And if you think this is a bit extreme, those of you who have read Ernest Gann's autoboigraphy ''Fate is the Hunter'' will recall his remorse in not doing something about a pilot who was obviously a fraud who subsequently went on to kill himself and all his passengers.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the Middle East page.
( http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/33...roll-cafe.html )
"Yea Sire, whenever possible, a wise Master Cameleer will entrusteth his autocamels only to the hands of cameleers whose skills he knoweth well. What better way to learneth the true worth of any aspiring cameleer than first to observeth him as an effoh calling warnings of oncoming potholes and falling rocks? For it is written that many cameleers who willst seeketh to joineth Thy caravan will cometh not from the caravan routes, but from the tribe of Parker bin Pehn."
"This tribe of Parker bin Pehn. We knowest it not."
"Ah, Sire, the Parker bin Pehn beith a secretive sect and one which plyeth its trade behind tightly closed tent flaps with but a single quill. Many an unwary Master of Cameleers hast fallen foul of this widely scattered tribe. They willst enter Thy house glibly, bearing stirring testimonials from masters who in fact knewest them not. These richly bound scrolls willst speak of wondrous deeds on caravans they have travelled - but, alas! they willst have travelled these routes but only in their dreams."
"Then surely We must avoideth such vile creatures."
"Verily, 'tis so, Sire."
"This tribe of Parker bin Pehn. We knowest it not."
"Ah, Sire, the Parker bin Pehn beith a secretive sect and one which plyeth its trade behind tightly closed tent flaps with but a single quill. Many an unwary Master of Cameleers hast fallen foul of this widely scattered tribe. They willst enter Thy house glibly, bearing stirring testimonials from masters who in fact knewest them not. These richly bound scrolls willst speak of wondrous deeds on caravans they have travelled - but, alas! they willst have travelled these routes but only in their dreams."
"Then surely We must avoideth such vile creatures."
"Verily, 'tis so, Sire."
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Close to space
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These guys make me so angry. I had well over 3000 hours when I got my first ATPL, why? Because I needed my 100 night hours, I would delay departure on empty legs to clock up .5 or .7 night to reach my goal. Hey at least I know every hour in my logbook is genuine.
but probably the miscreant falsified the company forms only, making legal action unlikely to be appropriate.
By "legal action" I mean, and I think you do too, reporting the crime to the proper authorities (Police and/or NAA) for investigation and prosecution, suspension of the pilot pending the hearing and summary dismissal if found guilty.
It makes no difference if he falsified a "company form". It's the falsification that is the crime, when done to secure a post as a pilot operating Public Transport aircraft. It is not just a civil matter between the pilot and the company.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: world
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many things may well be the duty of any responsible airline management, but in the real world how many of them would wish to wash their company’s dirty linen in public, as well as voluntarily giving themselves more hassle/expense etc to little advantage? The easier, quieter option is often taken over many issues I would surmise.
So many differing frauds are being mentioned in this thread, most of which I had not come across before in my innocence, that it’s true, fakers ARE everywhere.
What a regrettable situation, which obviously has existed for years, but what is the solution and will anything concrete be done about it? I’m not holding my breath.
So many differing frauds are being mentioned in this thread, most of which I had not come across before in my innocence, that it’s true, fakers ARE everywhere.
What a regrettable situation, which obviously has existed for years, but what is the solution and will anything concrete be done about it? I’m not holding my breath.