AOA and C-Scale
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AOA and C-Scale
A question, because I struck a nerve on one of the Wannabe Forums for asking what the AOA is doing about the C Scale package:
What is the AOA's position, and what's more intended ACTIONS about the C Scale terms and conditions offered to new & future pilots at CX?
Straight up, I do not work for CX. I turned down the offer to become an iCadet, go back to ADL to learn about lift and drag, and be an SO under those terms. I read all the AOA / DFO / GMA updates and yet I do not understand nor "get" the AOA's positions and proposed actions, if any.
While I STRONGLY believe in the AOA it is disparaging to see the direction CX has successfully and so easily taken without strong action from the AOA.
I am SURE I do not know what goes on behind the scenes, so hence my question.
What is the AOA's position, and what's more intended ACTIONS about the C Scale terms and conditions offered to new & future pilots at CX?
Straight up, I do not work for CX. I turned down the offer to become an iCadet, go back to ADL to learn about lift and drag, and be an SO under those terms. I read all the AOA / DFO / GMA updates and yet I do not understand nor "get" the AOA's positions and proposed actions, if any.
While I STRONGLY believe in the AOA it is disparaging to see the direction CX has successfully and so easily taken without strong action from the AOA.
I am SURE I do not know what goes on behind the scenes, so hence my question.
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I'm yet to see a publicised response least of all plan of action by the AOA to counter this severe degradation of (new) pilot terms and conditions.
On another thread there is one guy full of self praise for his efforts at the AOA during his time off. Yet in the same breath he tells me / us he sees no need to "bitch or moan" about the present environment because he is very happy on his terms and conditions doing 84 hrs a month.
So, he is indifferent and self serving in the extreme to improve the conditions for ALL CX pilots. After all, he is OK, so why bother with the defence of anyone else??
When these are the types of members working at the AOA the it's no wonder AHK, etc are so easily accepted.
On another thread there is one guy full of self praise for his efforts at the AOA during his time off. Yet in the same breath he tells me / us he sees no need to "bitch or moan" about the present environment because he is very happy on his terms and conditions doing 84 hrs a month.
So, he is indifferent and self serving in the extreme to improve the conditions for ALL CX pilots. After all, he is OK, so why bother with the defence of anyone else??
When these are the types of members working at the AOA the it's no wonder AHK, etc are so easily accepted.
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If you are not happy with the package offered turn it down! Only when enough applicants reject the package will it be improved. Don't accept it, come here and berate us about how we allowed it to happen - if you want change only you can make it happen!
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I believe he did turn it down. Nothing will be changed if it is left up to the guys flying for peanuts in clapped out king airs looking at this deal as a way to move their career forward. It is probably a better deal than they are getting now but it is not good enough as a career for most. The ONLY way things can change is from within, to suggest otherwise is very naive.
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Christn: why should it be the job of non CX employees to do the job of protecting the CX pilots' terms and conditions? Why should we do the job of the AOA?
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History has proven that if enough people turn down the current package, it will be improved. Incrementally at best, but we all know that the company will try and get bums in seats for the lowest cost.
I have heard some rumblings that the company is slowly seeing the error in their ways, but do not expect them to jump at fixing the current problem. This will only happen when JS starts jumping up and down about why we cannot crew our aircraft.
So in reality, if people don't come the company will be forced to increase the package if they want to keep the airline running/expanding/competing.
MACH.88
I have heard some rumblings that the company is slowly seeing the error in their ways, but do not expect them to jump at fixing the current problem. This will only happen when JS starts jumping up and down about why we cannot crew our aircraft.
So in reality, if people don't come the company will be forced to increase the package if they want to keep the airline running/expanding/competing.
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How to fight for a better package for new joiners?
Easy.
Don't allow the company to disrupt the roster of 5 pilots because they didn't want to call the reserve. Don't allow the company to call pilots on G days before all reserves are called out.
Wait... they don't have pilots on reserve anymore? Just roster more pilots for reserve duty.
Not enough pilots for that? Hire more
Not enough candidates? Improve the package
That's how we should get rid of C-scale.
Easy.
Don't allow the company to disrupt the roster of 5 pilots because they didn't want to call the reserve. Don't allow the company to call pilots on G days before all reserves are called out.
Wait... they don't have pilots on reserve anymore? Just roster more pilots for reserve duty.
Not enough pilots for that? Hire more
Not enough candidates? Improve the package
That's how we should get rid of C-scale.
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Mach & Fly:
This is precisely my point. It is the individual pilot's task to make a stand. Granted, the AOA has made a public statement regarding their thoughts on officers being called out on G Days but also state they cannot force individuals to act alone. True. But at least here they offer a statment it seems.
And true, aspiring new pilots to CX should not accept this C Scale. Sometimes organisations need to (try to) protect individuals from themselves. In so doing the pilot culture, standards & remuneration can be shown some form of defence. And you'll note a certain style of candidate willing & desperate to take the job no matter what. A quick review of the wannabe forum is evidence of that. Kids posting illiterate "txt" dialogue dribble, the same idiotic questions that you would think should've been understood prior to applying (eg: "How soon can I get a basing as an iCadet?"). And there's the reasoning & defense of the package such, eg, "If you think I'm going to stand by & wait for the offer to improve just to support other pilots whom mean nothing to me then you have another thing coming," or "Why should I do have to do my time in GA? It's too hard when I walk straight into CX without the need of any experience", etc, etc, etc....
And so again, the AOA appears to be deafening in their silence but for comments stating the bleeding obvious in the updates. No formal statement of opposition. Least of all no formal statement of intended action to protect or defend against this deliberate & methodical coup on pilots terms & conditions.
After reading Warhams book it seems the AOA hasn't learnt a thing. Continually caught with their eye off the ball & when a slight of hand from a planned maneuver occurs the AOA is found behind the goalposts watching as management line up for the conversion for bonus points.
This is precisely my point. It is the individual pilot's task to make a stand. Granted, the AOA has made a public statement regarding their thoughts on officers being called out on G Days but also state they cannot force individuals to act alone. True. But at least here they offer a statment it seems.
And true, aspiring new pilots to CX should not accept this C Scale. Sometimes organisations need to (try to) protect individuals from themselves. In so doing the pilot culture, standards & remuneration can be shown some form of defence. And you'll note a certain style of candidate willing & desperate to take the job no matter what. A quick review of the wannabe forum is evidence of that. Kids posting illiterate "txt" dialogue dribble, the same idiotic questions that you would think should've been understood prior to applying (eg: "How soon can I get a basing as an iCadet?"). And there's the reasoning & defense of the package such, eg, "If you think I'm going to stand by & wait for the offer to improve just to support other pilots whom mean nothing to me then you have another thing coming," or "Why should I do have to do my time in GA? It's too hard when I walk straight into CX without the need of any experience", etc, etc, etc....
And so again, the AOA appears to be deafening in their silence but for comments stating the bleeding obvious in the updates. No formal statement of opposition. Least of all no formal statement of intended action to protect or defend against this deliberate & methodical coup on pilots terms & conditions.
After reading Warhams book it seems the AOA hasn't learnt a thing. Continually caught with their eye off the ball & when a slight of hand from a planned maneuver occurs the AOA is found behind the goalposts watching as management line up for the conversion for bonus points.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 25th Jul 2011 at 03:57.
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Chinabeached,
I am not sure what the AOA can do. If the company wants to offer a room at the Headland and sack lunch to new joiners, they can. Despite the vast similarities between our contracts at CX, we are all on individual contracts. There is no collective bargaining agreement in which we have a say over the contract new joiners are brought in on.
Do you think CX pilots are all going to stay home from work because some idiot kid is willing to show up for little to no housing??? Of course not. No pilot group would. Keep in mind, cadet pilots receiving no housing have been around longer than B scale. So why criticize the AOA so loudly? You do not know what you are talking about. The AOA fights battles it can win. Yes, this is largely determined by the pilot group, but one has to be realistic.
In another sense, the company has unlimited flexibility to crew to market rates when hiring new pilots. On the flip side, once on a contract at CX, it can only be improved according to Hong Kong law. Yes, there are tradeoffs like CoS08 vs 99 and the ever present sign or be fired.
The company realizes it is running out of rope with which to reduce crew costs. The inevitability of supply and demand forces is catching up to airlines which are trying to grow. Eventually, I see the return of DEFOs on a base and full housing once icadets start leaving. Hence the bond.
CXorcist
I am not sure what the AOA can do. If the company wants to offer a room at the Headland and sack lunch to new joiners, they can. Despite the vast similarities between our contracts at CX, we are all on individual contracts. There is no collective bargaining agreement in which we have a say over the contract new joiners are brought in on.
Do you think CX pilots are all going to stay home from work because some idiot kid is willing to show up for little to no housing??? Of course not. No pilot group would. Keep in mind, cadet pilots receiving no housing have been around longer than B scale. So why criticize the AOA so loudly? You do not know what you are talking about. The AOA fights battles it can win. Yes, this is largely determined by the pilot group, but one has to be realistic.
In another sense, the company has unlimited flexibility to crew to market rates when hiring new pilots. On the flip side, once on a contract at CX, it can only be improved according to Hong Kong law. Yes, there are tradeoffs like CoS08 vs 99 and the ever present sign or be fired.
The company realizes it is running out of rope with which to reduce crew costs. The inevitability of supply and demand forces is catching up to airlines which are trying to grow. Eventually, I see the return of DEFOs on a base and full housing once icadets start leaving. Hence the bond.
CXorcist
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True. I can't deny what you say about my proper understanding of things but I try to understand it as best I can from the sidelines of AOA, DFO and GMA updates, etc. And yes, the sidelines are very far from actually playing in the game.
Still, I think the AOA should have a public stand. They did (in conjunction with IFALPA) regarding the recruitment ban due the 49ers dispute and true, pilots did still join. But at least the AOA had a statement and position on the issue.
DEFO? Yeah, have heard the same rumblings. But a bitter pill to swallow for a widebody FO to watch a zero hour (possibly 18 year old) iCadet who interviewed up to 3+ years after I did rise to be my Capt. Plus, CX are well and truly behind the 8-ball on this as well. EK, EY, QR and other agencies (placements in Europe, Sth East Asia and China) are recruiting suitably qualified Capts & FO's as quick as possible to satisfy their expansion needs.
The comment by Warham where he states to what extent should the AOA be responsible for the terms & conditions of future pilots struck a chord with me, for obvious reasons.
I appreciate your take on things. It sums it up better than I've heard yet.
Still, I think the AOA should have a public stand. They did (in conjunction with IFALPA) regarding the recruitment ban due the 49ers dispute and true, pilots did still join. But at least the AOA had a statement and position on the issue.
DEFO? Yeah, have heard the same rumblings. But a bitter pill to swallow for a widebody FO to watch a zero hour (possibly 18 year old) iCadet who interviewed up to 3+ years after I did rise to be my Capt. Plus, CX are well and truly behind the 8-ball on this as well. EK, EY, QR and other agencies (placements in Europe, Sth East Asia and China) are recruiting suitably qualified Capts & FO's as quick as possible to satisfy their expansion needs.
The comment by Warham where he states to what extent should the AOA be responsible for the terms & conditions of future pilots struck a chord with me, for obvious reasons.
I appreciate your take on things. It sums it up better than I've heard yet.
The problem is becoming one of 'a line in the sand'. A Scale let ASL and B Scale happen. Now it looks like B Scale will let C Scale happen. Where will it all end? I concur that a public statement should be made by the Association but the only practical way to fight this cancer is a training ban on those undercutting current crew conditions.
But from a recent management update congratulating new Training Captains, 'with more in the pipeline', what hope do we have...
But from a recent management update congratulating new Training Captains, 'with more in the pipeline', what hope do we have...
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G Days
It's simple people. Don't work G days.
I'm sick of hearing that same old lame excuse - the AOA has said it's ok, as soon as they tell me not to, then I will.
What a cop out.
Come on people, how about thinking for yourselves. By helping them on G days, not only are you helping them out of a crewing crisis, you are denying your colleagues (and fellow AOA members) overtime. If they are calling you on a G day, you can be sure that you are the CHEAPEST option, and NOT the only option.
If you're so intent on using your "AOA loyalty" as an excuse, then go back a few months, and re-read the update with the analysis (an example of numbers being crunched) where they demonstrate how much cheaper it is to call a G day worker, rather than the guy on reserve. Read between the lines.......
At least if you're going to do it, place more value on your time, and demand more. Demand that they change your undesirable flight next week to Gs, or ask for extra cash compensation, or whatever else you can think of. When they say no, tell them to call back when they can, if everybody starts saying no, or demanding extra returns, they'll have no choice but to call you back.
Bottom line - If people stop working G days, then things will grind to a halt very quickly.
I'm sick of hearing that same old lame excuse - the AOA has said it's ok, as soon as they tell me not to, then I will.
What a cop out.
Come on people, how about thinking for yourselves. By helping them on G days, not only are you helping them out of a crewing crisis, you are denying your colleagues (and fellow AOA members) overtime. If they are calling you on a G day, you can be sure that you are the CHEAPEST option, and NOT the only option.
If you're so intent on using your "AOA loyalty" as an excuse, then go back a few months, and re-read the update with the analysis (an example of numbers being crunched) where they demonstrate how much cheaper it is to call a G day worker, rather than the guy on reserve. Read between the lines.......
At least if you're going to do it, place more value on your time, and demand more. Demand that they change your undesirable flight next week to Gs, or ask for extra cash compensation, or whatever else you can think of. When they say no, tell them to call back when they can, if everybody starts saying no, or demanding extra returns, they'll have no choice but to call you back.
Bottom line - If people stop working G days, then things will grind to a halt very quickly.
