Yep Dash is treating me just fine. I fly 4-8 legs a day and get an OK pay, and lots of days off. Better jobs out there sure....just not the current CX deal.

Yep I follow it, it is fun to follow these threads, I was almost over in HK at CX with the original DESO package, I would have been happy to eat sandwiches and make beds. I'll just have to get in the next time the DEFO's start getting hired.

What about you, are you going to go to CX? Did they accept you? I know that I'M good enough, now are you?

Wise words from 404 Titan :ok:

i personally know of 5 others. who knows how many more...25 maybe. so what if they find out, im the one that is positive about their program and your trying to shred it to bits.

titan 404 you have a bad attitude full stop. don't try and threaten someone on this forum with the job that you are downplaying so poorly.

pull your head in

:cool:

i would hate to be in the cockpit with built4flying83 :yuk:

good input aviation boy...:ugh:
i can just imagine you and 404 titan in the cruise trying to out do each other on who has it worse and what has the world come to...something like "you think you got it bad mate, I had to blah blah blah" that would be a delightful atmosphere to work in...not.

Anybody know where the bike sheds are in CX city? Somebody needs to send this boy there for some 'education' :ouch:

built4flying83
Let me give you some more advice. Being positive about this iCad program won’t get you the job here. Infact for 99% of the applicants it won’t even get them an interview. One of the biggest criteria we look for in prospective new pilots is whether you will fit in, i.e. will most pilots here be able to sit with you for 14+ hours at a time without wanting to rip your head off? So far you will fit in as well as pork sausage and bacon breakfast in sunny downtown Riyadh during Ramadan. Maybe this is why you f**ked up with your JQ interview last year. You're obviously a very slow learner.
My colleagues and employer would beg to differ with your assumption.
Where have I downplayed this job? I have been very critical of the iCad program only because of the T&C’s being offered, not because of the job being offered. If you’re so fragile that you take what was advice as a threat then you are incredibly thin skinned.
One could advise you to do the same.

Sanctimonious is still a very befitting description of you.:yuk:

titan 404
 

titan, you are about as stable as a drunk on shaky ground (thought id rip out the old cheesy sayings since you started it). One minute you saying the standards are quite low and next minute your saying its hard to get in.

You like giving advice don't you, its almost a reflex action isn't it with your 2000+ posts. This figure alone suggests something is not quite right. Yes yes you have been around for years but even so. You are a highly paid cathay pilot, go out and enjoy your life dont sit on pprune all day conversing/telling guys 10+ years your junior what to do.

I guess a description of a 32yr old joining cathay and 12 years later a proud ppruner with more than 2000 posts is very befitting of you.

built4flying83
You mind quoting where I have said that? Mind you, you couldn’t even get into Jetstar so I suppose they are scraping the bottom of the barrel with the likes of you.:yuk:
If your reading and comprehension skills were better you would have seen most of the advice I have given in the past was helping wannabes like you get in here before the iCad scheme.
Welcome to long haul flying where having to stay up all night down route and sleeping all day is the only way to keep cumulative fatigue under check, ie staying on one time zone. This is your future lifestyle if you make it in.
Is that the best you can do? Please have another shot, I'm enjoying it.:ok:

good stuff...me too, was getting worried you weren't.. and start going going off your rocker again as per 50% of your posts...
hmm another shot..don't tempt me. It's not like you are going to say yeah you got me nailed.
how bout the typical guy that came from another industry with a chip on his shoulder as he thinks he can bring a fresh / more educated take on situations compared to the plebs who arent accountants?:yuk:

built4flying83
Wow you’ve just figured out I have an Accounting degree. Good for you. At least I don’t make an ass of myself trying to big nose my qualifications like you have done just recently.
You base this statement on what sunshine? If you don't like the financial advice I have given regarding the iCad scheme, tough. I say it how I see it. It’s obvious you only want to see it from a point of blissful ignorance.:yuk:

To all the CX wannabes

I can understand the desire to join a legacy carrier like CX and at first glance the contract they offer with the forgivable loan etc may even look good, especially if you are a youngster new to the aviation game. However the simply fact is if you have a long term girlfriend/wife or kids then the money they are offering will pay for at best a well below average life in HK. Even the most basic of necessities to support a western lifestyle would be a struggle and luxuries or savings of any kind will be an impossible dream.

Built4flying83

I agree with those that have posted that us in the company should be the ones to fight for better conditions for all and I would never expect somebody else to fight my battles. In short I have no axe to grind with new joiners, but instead feel they are getting an extremely poor deal with this new icadet scheme. That said I have to assume either you are very rich or just have not done your homework on living expenses in HK. If you do manage to pass the interview and join cx then I fear you will discover very quickly why so many people are extremely critical of the current offer. Sadly for you by then you will be chained to the company for 6 years after which you will still have very limited experience that could land you a job elsewhere. Most companies do not recognise the CX P2S rating. If you wish to leave early the cost to you would be eye watering. The point is if you join, then you would be stuck here for a long time living an extremely frugal existence. Companies around the world are starting to hire so I would strongly recommend you look elsewhere before accepting the CX offer. Tread very carefully and do not complain that you have not been warned!

titan404 you are starting to bore me now.... you like the sound of your own voice / opinions hence the 2000+ posts. it's been fun sparring with you. :}

IFB thanks for the heads up, will take it on board as you put it abit more tactful than others...

IFB also, say it is the case where its pretty bad lifestyle and i served my 6 years. Good chance ill be a FO by then right? on 93,000 HK /month (this includes the HKPA). Surely that is enough to live abit more to your standards?
now that we are being productive here, whats the allowances one can expect with overnights, meals etc.. over a year, obviously it will be diff with aircrafdt types and so forth..quote each type if anyone can

Actually I think with current trends you would more likely be a JFO. At present it is over 4 years to JFO and with new Flight Time limits on the way, plus fleet expansion I can only realistically see that time increasing. I may be wrong on this, but that is my best guess. What I would say is any info you are given stating less than 4 years to JFO is hugely optimistic at best.

However, even if you make FO you still have to take into account how your life will change over that period. Most people want to get married and have a family and save for the future. This means you would need a bigger place and to pay for school fees plus extra food energy etc. All of which is going to eat into that 93K at an alarming rate, not to mention inflation. By the way do not bank on pay rises helping with inflation. The last pay rise took 10 years!!!!! Additionally HK seems to be bucking the global trend with house/rent prices soaring. You could take a gamble that that will level out/reverse, but are you really willing to gamble your future families lifestyle on that?

Allowances vary from city to city, but if you are thinking about using them to supplement your income then the alarm bells should already be ringing. Even if I lived on noodles during my patterns and did not go out at all the additional cash saved would be enough to give me perhaps 2 decent nights out a month in HK ie 3-4000HKD.

In my opinion if you are early to mid 20’s, single, no aviation experience and prepared to live with mates for a few years then CX is a possible starter airline. Once the loan is paid off and you have some relevant experience 7-9 yrs at a guess then you could look at another legacy carrier in cheaper locations and still be young enough to start from the bottom. However if you
are 28+ by the time you break free of the loan with the necessary experience starting at the bottom with nothing behind you finically is going to
be tough especially on a family. Do you really want to be 35+ before you can even think about a pension, descent family holiday, house with more than2 bedrooms etc!

built4flying83

You have just hit the nail on the head with your last post, mentioning allowances in the same context as your monthly wage, just goes to show how desperate things can really be. Unless you are willing to eat spam with a plastic fork in your room then you might be left with a couple of hundred at the end of a 3 day pattern.

I was once on around $90000 per month and with a wife and child to support, I was digging into my savings just to survive.

Yes, as a single person sharing a flat you will do fine, but you will not be able to afford the lifestyle of your peers here in HK on expat conditions, we have many expat pilots that have joined on local packages due to them having ID cards prior to joining.
After the novelty of the job wears off, and it will, you will spend you entire existence trying to convince everyone else that you should be rewarded as an expat, and as much as we would like to be sympathetic to your cause, at the end of the day, you signed the dotted line.

Dont be critical of the people who post here, we are frustrated at seeing our profession going in this direction as much as anyone, unfortunately for now at least, you are the one who will be under the financial burden and setting the scene for the next round of cutbacks in conditions.

Good luck with your interview.

JY

it is good to hear from some other people.

yeah i get what you are saying, but what i find is... i do spend 70% of the allowances while im overnighting somewhere, but when the pay packet comes in i usually end up with more than if i didnt do any trips as I was eating/drinking allowance money those 3 nights, not digging into base salary and eating food from home. You don't find this the case?

Lets work on 4 trips a month. 1600HK per trip better off x 4 = 6400HK /month additional ?? lets be conservative and say it is half that so 3200HK /month, thats going to help a little bit?

I understand, i am just a bit skeptical of their intentions. It must be frustrating when im trying to outlne the positives when the salary has been cut in half for new hires? You are probably thinking managment are watching this thread and are saying they don't need to raise conditions.

Don't get me wrong, i would rather be on 35,000 + HKPA 64,000 = 99,000 HK$, from the day dot. (old scheme)

Another thing to consider is the lower tax in HK compared to other parts of the world when you start earning relative high amounts.
What does a captain earn these days?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

You seriously are willing to justify CX cutting the package for pilots coming to HKG by more than 50% with this drivel???

$3000 ??? Who gives a #$% about $ 3000 when your overall renumeration will be $ 50 000 a month less than mine was at the same rank????

If you want to take the job - then take it. But please stop trying to justify it.

Hi captains,

Firstly I really want to thank you guys to warn us and give us advice! But what would you guys recommend? Waiting for the DEFO openings? Will they ever come and will Cathay give the original allowances which the iCadets don't get? It is a nice place to live, if you can effort it. I think a pilot can life on the iCadet packages, but not really comfortable! It is more surviving and dealing with an adventure than chill out and doing things with your friends or family.

I've already read tha if you are under your twenties, no spouse, no flight experience, then life can be 'good'. But isn't it better to get the licences, building up some hours, maybe even get command at a lo-co and then move up to Cathay? So let's say you are then in your early 30's? Is that a better deal? Or just entering as a 20yrs old, with no flight experience into the iCadet scheme and get ASAP onto that seniority list!

Thanks in advance, and PM would be okay too!

Hey CAPT Weird - it is better to learn to spell first.

Built4flying83,

If you really have 4000 total you should strongly consider looking elsewhere. You are overqualified for an SO position at CX. Lots of FO jobs around at the moment which would be worth looking at first. I have just under 2000 TP and consider myself overqualified for the job, especially looking at the salary.

If you are going to ditch Australia for a job, it might as well be a decent paying one. Remember, finding work back here isn't easy if you ever decide to come back :(

you are spot on yokebearer. just running ideas past you guys. I guess something to lesson the blow is the forgiveable loan. Which accounts for about 18months of old HKPA. yes? understand you gotta pay tax on it and you wont recieve it till 12months after join date.

aviationboy thanks for the heads up. food for thought.

Allowances as income??
 

As alluded to above, your consideration of allowances as part of your income planning is nothing short of complete folly. This is the mentality that has permeated throughout the cabin crew world, and it's no secret what sort of rubbish money they are on.

Outport allowances are not contractual, they are the same for us & the girls, and are re-assessed regularly by "the company" based on prices at the crew hotel coffee shop / restaurant. So, if the price of noodles goes down, so does the allowance. If the price of steak goes up, the allowance doesn't necessarily go up. Like anything else by or from "the company", it is totally arbitrary. The allowance only goes upwards if the cabin crew start to make noises about the expensive prices of asian food - the company doesn't give a hoot about our opinions in that regard. For example, the company now give cabin crew on the DXB/JED shuttle an extra night of allowances (we don't get it), because the sickness rate for the girls was out of control.

Additionally, your estimate of the amount of cash being based on 3 - 4 trips might sound right for an SO at the moment, but it is not guaranteed. Next time there's a reduction in flying, you will do less overnights. I'm not just talking about GFC, SARS etc, but there are fleet changes happening soon at CX - If you are on a new fleet such as the 747-8 or the 350, for the first half year or so of the introduction, you will not be on a full roster (ie less overnights) as the fleet is bedded in. Conversely, as a fleet disappears, someone has to stay until the end, which means less overnights.

FOs & Captains who fly regional type fleets get more overnights, but less cash per trip. Plus, the cash you get in local currencies is not worth much in a conversion to HK$ (JNB, TPE, BKK are just a few fine examples). When you are on leave, those allowances aren't there, but maybe that might be an advantage of having only 3 weeks of leave per year when the rest of us get 6.

Besides, this discussion is of nil consequence, the purpose of the outport allowance is for your/our/my expenditure for food etc whilst we are at the out port AT THE COMPANY'S BEHEST. If you don't spend it all sometimes, then so be it, but there are a few cities where the allowance can disappear within hours of arrival (NY is an expensive example).

If you want to be like the girls, who go all around the world, never go out, and only eat cup noodles in their room because they are trying to save their allowances, then go for it.

They're NOT 'hours'. It's just a P2X rating :ugh: (and having to share a room in Chungking Mansions).

Built4flying83

To be honest I get the feeling that if offered a job by CX you are going to take it regardless of what anybody on this forum says. I get the impression that all your posts are fishing for confirmation that you are doing the right thing no matter what others who work for CX tell you. The money from the forgivable loan seems to be a draw for you, which is no doubt what CX want. However, bear in mind its not enough to get close to a deposit on a property not that you would have enough for a mortgage anyway! Additionally yes it is the equivalent of about 18 months housing, but what are you planning to live on for the remaining 4.5 years before you could leave? Notice I assume your time in the company would be no more than the length of the loan!!!! Thats because the vast majority of icadests I have spoken to plan on leaving ASAP. Yes the tax is low, but that is because you have to pay for EVERYTHING up front. You may not have kids yet, but just take a look at the cost of education to understand my point!

IMHO

Under 25, single, no kids and no aviation experience, then the CX deal is OK for a few years provided that after 6 years you understand that you will have little if any savings and only limited flying hours that you could take to another airline due to CX SO’s logging P2X. Additionally although living in an exciting city you will not be able to enjoy what it has to offer as you will not have the funds to do so. Just take a look at how much a gym or reasonable club membership costs annually. That said severe pollution is free for all.

If on the other hand you are not single, do have kids or are older than 25 then unless you or your spouse is rich the lifestyle provided by the icad scheme is going to be austere at best!

Thats my opinion take it or leave it.

I do not think this deal is good, I think it is far below what you should get for moving to another very different country. I do however think that people should know the facts and to say that you would get no where near a deposit is just not true. Yeah if you have kids and need a big place then not a chance but for a single guy a two bedroom ok size place in Tung Chung is about the 3-4 million price range. You can get a 90% mortgage on 3 million and stamp duty is not outrageous for that amount so for about 350-400,000 you could get somewhere. Repayments could be about 15K a month. Use the rest for tax and repayments. After 6 years will be below the 70% outstanding so could switch mortgage and rent the place out when you move back home to fly for someone else.

You will however never be able to afford a descent sized place or support a family whilst living to a standard similar to home. It is a small place for your whole time in CX.

IFB
 

thanks for the info IFB. You probably were right with me initially just fishing around for confirmation. I definately know it came across that way. But now multiple experienced people have shed the same light on certain issues i would have to be silly to ignore it.

Built4flying83

Good to know you are listening. Whatever decision you make and wherever you end up I hope it works out, be that HK or not.

SloppyJoe

Yes I agree about a small place foe one guy, but I am trying to look to the future. The guys that join will have to be with the company for 6 yrs and lots will change in their lives during that time. Many will want to get married and start a family. Like you agree this package then becomes almost impossible. If they do use the loan as a deposit, then add in mort, tax, food, bills etc there is little if any left over for savings, pension of just plain fun!

OneBarWonder
 

yeah not too good

Definitely. You can have a very good lifestyle in HK on that. In fact if you are single you can have a very comfortable life-style on half that.

As an SO I am on a fair bit more than that and would not be in HKG if it were any less, it is just not worth living here if you are not saving/paying of a mortgage.

errrrr, not really. You can live but why move here if you are not putting cash in the bank!

would be good if the forgiveable loan was doubled :)

Would be better if CX got back to normal expat package so we could hire some suitable pilots for all these new aircraft. No offense low-time wannabes.

CXorcist

Might be time for CX to tweak the deal if they want to attract even a basic level of experience. It looks like a lot of low cost FO slots coming up in Singapore. Relatively quick upgrades, then off to the premium carriers still willing to pay for that experience. Bob's your uncle, Swire's your penny pinching aunt ;-)

Just out of interest, which carriers do you mean?

I was going to say Qantas but not really an option these days! What I am getting at is that for someone with a bit of flying experience under their belt, the advanced cadet program on C scale just isn't worth it.
When considering the overall package of lifestyle/salary/accomodation, It looks to me that cutting your teeth at an LCC, followed by DEFO at Emirates, Korean, ANA (although not sure if the latter are doing much hiring) and the like, would leave you better off than the relatively slow progression and low housing allowance at CX.