OK, what would YOU do?
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OK, what would YOU do?
If, say for the sake of argument,you were a major airline carrier, which, for whatever reason, decided to sack around 50 union members. The sacked guys ranged from ex fleet managers with golden records to guys you wouldn't drink a beer with if you were in a desert. Some of the guys sacked had mortgages in HKG, in a housing market that according to all sources has dropped by 60% at least, and are therefore through no fault of their own in deep deep financial do do. Having finally managed to install a professional DFO, who, once again for the sake of argument, wants to fix this BIG F**K *P, what would YOU do? The more senior and better off sackees want to show solidarity with the younger guys who have HSBC after them, the younger guys cant go bankrupt because, if we all read our contracts, wherever we are, thats a big no no for employment ever again.....the HKAOA would love to fix it but is assiduously painting itself into its usual corner because of all the above........
I know 411a and Buttf*ck 57 will say well tough on them, Kaptin M will say well f*ck the company.....but what IS an equitable and above all FAIR answer?
Answers on a postcard please.....
I know 411a and Buttf*ck 57 will say well tough on them, Kaptin M will say well f*ck the company.....but what IS an equitable and above all FAIR answer?
Answers on a postcard please.....
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1. Offer to interview the 49ers. Those who will work in the best interests of the company get re-employed (on probation). If they ever compete for worst-employee-of-the-year again, instant dismissal
2. Rostering becomes part of COS (not Vol1). The pilots will have to 'pay' for this with retirement at 60
3. All legal action dropped by all parties
4. Current 'leadership' of the AOA has sex-and-travel to a far away place
5. CX managment take a more active role in friendly man-management. AOA works for the company, not against it. Although, with less than 50% membership it doesn't really matter what the friggin AOA does
6. The 49ers who are still anti-cx also have sex-and-travel
7. All commands at A scale pay level (therefore no more scales in effect)
8. No other change to salaries
9. Big improvement in profit share for ALL employees. This allows us all to share in additional $ when the company does well, but lets management protect bottom line in more difficult years
10. Let management run the airline, pilots operate the aeroplanes
2. Rostering becomes part of COS (not Vol1). The pilots will have to 'pay' for this with retirement at 60
3. All legal action dropped by all parties
4. Current 'leadership' of the AOA has sex-and-travel to a far away place
5. CX managment take a more active role in friendly man-management. AOA works for the company, not against it. Although, with less than 50% membership it doesn't really matter what the friggin AOA does
6. The 49ers who are still anti-cx also have sex-and-travel
7. All commands at A scale pay level (therefore no more scales in effect)
8. No other change to salaries
9. Big improvement in profit share for ALL employees. This allows us all to share in additional $ when the company does well, but lets management protect bottom line in more difficult years
10. Let management run the airline, pilots operate the aeroplanes
In this purely hypothetical airline (HA), I would tend to agree with PilotAbroad's basic thrust.
There , however, needs to be a number of circuit breakers. A couple might be:
Waiver of the all-or-none philosophy.
The interview process based upon referral by three, four, five... employees of the HA in good standing.
Interview panel made up of cleanskins. Two internal and one external. Majority view rules. By making the resolution of the panel non-binding on the company it will, in fact, be binding. I say this because it will allow the company to show good faith, which it is 'hypothetically' keen to do.
Media totally excluded by all parties.
The process must bring closure for all, once and for all. An MOU to that effect signed by all parties would help.
Probation system based on result of interview. P-plates on the freighter for twelve months perhaps.
I fear the leap of faith required may be too great but I would like to be proved wrong.
All hypotheically speaking of course...
There , however, needs to be a number of circuit breakers. A couple might be:
Waiver of the all-or-none philosophy.
The interview process based upon referral by three, four, five... employees of the HA in good standing.
Interview panel made up of cleanskins. Two internal and one external. Majority view rules. By making the resolution of the panel non-binding on the company it will, in fact, be binding. I say this because it will allow the company to show good faith, which it is 'hypothetically' keen to do.
Media totally excluded by all parties.
The process must bring closure for all, once and for all. An MOU to that effect signed by all parties would help.
Probation system based on result of interview. P-plates on the freighter for twelve months perhaps.
I fear the leap of faith required may be too great but I would like to be proved wrong.
All hypotheically speaking of course...
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VR-...
All of your points were proposed by yours truly to the then DDFO about 14 months ago. In case you're wondering, I did not stand for AOA president and I am a member in good standing!
Perhaps the (collective) light has finally come on?
All of your points were proposed by yours truly to the then DDFO about 14 months ago. In case you're wondering, I did not stand for AOA president and I am a member in good standing!
Perhaps the (collective) light has finally come on?
CU
Let's hope so. 14 months is hopefully long enough for some renewed clarity of thought.
Some of the best minds in town have tried to come up with a solution and probably have...but like a lot of things it is often about timing.
I believe, however, that the hypothetical position alluded to in this thread is more difficult to advocate to the 49'ers than to the DFO and his superiors.
Who is going to sit down with them one on one and convince them that this kind of approach is the best chance they have of working for the hypothetical airline again and indirectly saving the AOA from self immolation?
Volunteers to the front of the bus.
Cheers
Let's hope so. 14 months is hopefully long enough for some renewed clarity of thought.
Some of the best minds in town have tried to come up with a solution and probably have...but like a lot of things it is often about timing.
I believe, however, that the hypothetical position alluded to in this thread is more difficult to advocate to the 49'ers than to the DFO and his superiors.
Who is going to sit down with them one on one and convince them that this kind of approach is the best chance they have of working for the hypothetical airline again and indirectly saving the AOA from self immolation?
Volunteers to the front of the bus.
Cheers
All sounds perfectly resnoble, but I have one question:-
What exactley is the motivation for the company to do anything? As the courses are being filled with people the AOA have made ineligable for membership, wouldn`t the smart (please note I didn`t say "right" or "moral", just "smart") thing for the company be to sit on it`s hands and continue to recruit an automatically non-union workforce?
What exactley is the motivation for the company to do anything? As the courses are being filled with people the AOA have made ineligable for membership, wouldn`t the smart (please note I didn`t say "right" or "moral", just "smart") thing for the company be to sit on it`s hands and continue to recruit an automatically non-union workforce?
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Wiz, jtr
The optimists believe that behind the curtain there lies a 'right' and 'moral' company. Recent events aside, the weight of history and precedent supports this.
If there are those that wish to open the curtain, that is motivation enough to try for one last time to reach a resolution.
One way or the other it will probably be the last act of what has been a pretty poorly choreographed pantomime.
The optimists believe that behind the curtain there lies a 'right' and 'moral' company. Recent events aside, the weight of history and precedent supports this.
If there are those that wish to open the curtain, that is motivation enough to try for one last time to reach a resolution.
One way or the other it will probably be the last act of what has been a pretty poorly choreographed pantomime.
Last edited by Traffic; 12th Feb 2003 at 09:01.
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jtr
Your point is well taken. I guess for some (perhaps many) a decade at CX is a whole career and the only timeline of immediate relevance.
To go further into history may draw scorn, so I leave those who are interested to do that for themselves.
Excuse me if I repeat myself, but by the early 90's cost structure had started to steadily eat away at competitiveness. Something had to be done and was. It is debatable as to whether it was done as well as it could have been, but the reality is that there is no easy way to degrade COS without creating ill will. This against a backdrop of an AOA that steadily became more of an adversary than ally.
My basic point is that the company has historically been a moral organisation and remains so to this day even though less personalised.
In order for this issue to be resolved once and for all, there must be a willingness to trust that this is the fundamental premise on which the management would wish to resolve the issue.
Closure will not be achieved by sheeting blame but by reaching a practical result that is fair to as many as possible.
Probably the final boarding call before the bags get offloaded.
Your point is well taken. I guess for some (perhaps many) a decade at CX is a whole career and the only timeline of immediate relevance.
To go further into history may draw scorn, so I leave those who are interested to do that for themselves.
Excuse me if I repeat myself, but by the early 90's cost structure had started to steadily eat away at competitiveness. Something had to be done and was. It is debatable as to whether it was done as well as it could have been, but the reality is that there is no easy way to degrade COS without creating ill will. This against a backdrop of an AOA that steadily became more of an adversary than ally.
My basic point is that the company has historically been a moral organisation and remains so to this day even though less personalised.
In order for this issue to be resolved once and for all, there must be a willingness to trust that this is the fundamental premise on which the management would wish to resolve the issue.
Closure will not be achieved by sheeting blame but by reaching a practical result that is fair to as many as possible.
Probably the final boarding call before the bags get offloaded.
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Traffic, this is not the CPA of old, where everyone would sit in the crew room during a typhoon waiting to go flying.
The is the CX of new, a company where motivation comes in the form of intimidation. Where one will not get a thank you letter for going into discretion to fly past TPE, but will a 'warning' letter for being sick more often than the FOPS predetermined level. Where your next promotion is not determined by your overall performance, but by who you may have p1ssed off in management. A company where senior member of management ring up junior crew, and berate them for chosing to stick to their contractual rostering obligations, with idle threats of failed promotion interviews. A company where you are regarded as the troublemakers by most other employees as a result of the brainwashing of certain board members. etc, etc...
I can drone on for plenty longer with examples of immoral behavior, but I struggle to think of many morals ones.
The is the CX of new, a company where motivation comes in the form of intimidation. Where one will not get a thank you letter for going into discretion to fly past TPE, but will a 'warning' letter for being sick more often than the FOPS predetermined level. Where your next promotion is not determined by your overall performance, but by who you may have p1ssed off in management. A company where senior member of management ring up junior crew, and berate them for chosing to stick to their contractual rostering obligations, with idle threats of failed promotion interviews. A company where you are regarded as the troublemakers by most other employees as a result of the brainwashing of certain board members. etc, etc...
I can drone on for plenty longer with examples of immoral behavior, but I struggle to think of many morals ones.
Last edited by jtr; 17th Feb 2003 at 08:40.
Traffic
jtr is right, this is sadly not the CPA of old.
I would add however that, just like any organisation full of large egos, there has been intimidation here for as long as I can remember. The difference now is that there are no circuit breakers, no informal mechanisms to iron out misunderstandings.
It has become institutionalised as an acceptable form of motivation even though that is an oxymoron if ever I have heard one.
Why? Well when most of those suited to managing their fellow pilots exit the building, it gradually becomes overrun by those who think this is an acceptable form of management and justify it by saying this is what the directors want.
Morality requires moral authority not authoritarians sounding moralistic.
jtr is right, this is sadly not the CPA of old.
I would add however that, just like any organisation full of large egos, there has been intimidation here for as long as I can remember. The difference now is that there are no circuit breakers, no informal mechanisms to iron out misunderstandings.
It has become institutionalised as an acceptable form of motivation even though that is an oxymoron if ever I have heard one.
Why? Well when most of those suited to managing their fellow pilots exit the building, it gradually becomes overrun by those who think this is an acceptable form of management and justify it by saying this is what the directors want.
Morality requires moral authority not authoritarians sounding moralistic.
If Only I Had Medals To Give!
Career Command
What a splendid idea.
Perhaps we can get Jack Straw to make the moral case to the Security Council to have the "No-Fly Zone" lifted around Kitty City. Even Jacques Chirac might go for that one!
Blue Eagle
You flatter me. The reality is that there are hundreds endowed with a similar sentiments. I only wish more would make themselves heard.
What a splendid idea.
Perhaps we can get Jack Straw to make the moral case to the Security Council to have the "No-Fly Zone" lifted around Kitty City. Even Jacques Chirac might go for that one!
Blue Eagle
You flatter me. The reality is that there are hundreds endowed with a similar sentiments. I only wish more would make themselves heard.
