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Displaced Local Crew

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Displaced Local Crew

Old 13th Nov 2020, 01:27
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 420
On the face of it, you're right, it isn't difficult to understand.

That would severely complicate base closures because, if what you're saying is correct, the large majority of basees will not be able to return to HK. Some have PR, but most do not, especially the 20-year FOs.
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Old 13th Nov 2020, 01:37
  #82 (permalink)  
SW1
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 442
So after these guys visas aren't renewed. what next? its a win for the companies as they no longer have to employ you(they can't legally) and pay you.

How much flying are we all really doing, me I haven't been in a real aircraft since January. plenty of guys in the 777 at cathay are the same. HKE flying Taichung.

whilst this covid crisis continues, with all the measures destroying tourism etc. do you see a reason for airlines creating vacancies for the local displaced crew?

They can just say sorry we are not going to create a job for someone, put them through groundschool, sims, lfus etc for them to be sat on their arse for the next few months. Airlines are bleeding cash, they're never going to do the decent thing just to clear the backlog of unemployed pilots. immigration HAS the right to reject visa renewals etc. They DONT have the right to ask airlines to create jobs that don't exist. I sincerely hope all the displaced pilots find work soon, but not at the expense of those who have managed to keep their job.

Will they get that warm fuzzy feeling when there's another 500 pilots out on the street and they still haven't taken their place due lack of justification for employment?
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Old 13th Nov 2020, 01:53
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 370
Sounds like a great mechanism for a Caring Company to reduce their pilot costs in this extended time of reduced flying.
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Old 13th Nov 2020, 05:00
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Aust
Posts: 218
This thread reminds me of the scurrying rats that would be attacking the abandoned garbage in the lanes and alleyways of TST late at night, but even those rats had standards.
I couldn't imagine flying with these guys sitting there, not saying boo to a goose, but plotting ways to undermine their colleagues continuously. I would imagine if CX thought they could run their airline with just these guys they would, after all they're cheap as chips.

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Old 13th Nov 2020, 15:29
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,711
This thread is a true indication where the profession has sunk to ! Total disgrace . Reference to Rats is perfect .
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 00:26
  #86 (permalink)  
Rie
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 181
The form looks a bit cheap but you never know if it is real or not.

https://forms.office.com/Pages/Respo...oxWko5Vk9RRy4u

How many displaced locals are 737 rated? Will the argument be that a Local ATPL holder can be trained to another type so no need for a expats? Otherwise Greater Bay will fill up quickly with those who recently lost positions worldwide.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 02:43
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: FUMOD
Posts: 62
Real.. Prefer Boeing experience.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 04:17
  #88 (permalink)  
SW1
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 442
Theres plenty of guys at HKA with significant 737-800 time with HK ATPL and the type on their licence, came from MAS. Captains and FOs. If these guys are removed to make way for the displaced I'm sure they'll definitely apply. I also know someone from dragon who joined as NTR who also had significant 737 time in Europe.

Last edited by SW1; 14th Nov 2020 at 05:06.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 04:27
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 53
Posts: 191
Every piloy who lost his job in Hong Kong will be able to get it back. The work visa will not be an issue.People will fly again, pilot numbers will be the same as before the crisis.

The more relevant question will be on what terms/rank that job will be.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 04:35
  #90 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 442
I dont doubt that but its people like Eddy and his supporters actively lobbying(apparently) to have more people lose their jobs is what disgusts me. Specifically targeting other Hong kong based private companies, who had no help from the government, have no government observers on their board, and were not party to what was going to happen to dragon is just wrong. Then we have trolls claiming its already happening which just puts the shits into people already worried about their job security.

Last edited by SW1; 14th Nov 2020 at 05:07.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 06:51
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: HK
Age: 50
Posts: 116
There is nothing personnal and it's not pilots against pilots.
With one sided contracts removing seniority and managers having no respect for employees the only thing protecting a career these day is the law .
Not for us to debate fairness of the law or what differentiate a migrant worker with a Work Visa (which I was the first 7 years in Hong Kong) to a Permanent Resident.

Let's say Swire decides that HKE will do longhaul
transfers 20 350s to Express and sacks 200 pilots at CX.while in the same time HKE recruits to operate these 350s
As a CX redundant PR pilots, what would you do? The only angle you can use to challenge the redundancy is your priority for employment to Visa Workers.

2nd exemple, comes June 2021, Borders still closed anther 20% of pilots to be let go at CX on a contract that doesn't recognise seniority.
Don't you think that PR made redundant will challenge their redundancy if CX keeps Visa workers and why would it not be fair as they joined earlier the airline.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 07:24
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 15
In our profession, those who underperform or have disciplinary issues will always be the first to be made redundant when hard times come.

Puzzling . Are some people saying that PR and locals should be retained at all costs regardless of competency and performance ? On the basis of employment law no less?

it’s a flawed argument. And obviously there’s a dishonest agenda behind it.



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Old 14th Nov 2020, 07:40
  #93 (permalink)  
SW1
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 442
Originally Posted by bacou View Post
There is nothing personnal and it's not pilots against pilots.
With one sided contracts removing seniority and managers having no respect for employees the only thing protecting a career these day is the law .
Not for us to debate fairness of the law or what differentiate a migrant worker with a Work Visa (which I was the first 7 years in Hong Kong) to a Permanent Resident.

Let's say Swire decides that HKE will do longhaul
transfers 20 350s to Express and sacks 200 pilots at CX.while in the same time HKE recruits to operate these 350s
If there was external recruitment resulting in hiring someone outside the country and applying for an initial work visa when you had type rated 350 pilots already in house I would agree. what are you going to do in your hypothetical scenario if those HKE pilots are also PR. Will you claim you've been here longer? your passports better than theres?

I dont agree with using these tactics( even though it might be within the confines of the law) to use your privilege to take someone's else's job from another airline.

I'm sorry but your grievance lies with the swire group. nobody else screwed you over other than them with the government looking on.

For visa renewals nowhere does it state you have to make a sworn affidavit that there is no local talent to perform the job. For an initial yes there is but not for subsequent renewal. They just want to know your salary and time in the company and your position. Please feel free to check. Nobody's making false statements to anyone.

I feel you're trying change the law to suit your current predicament.


Last edited by SW1; 14th Nov 2020 at 07:55.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 07:56
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 53
Posts: 191
Sounds right. All you need for renewal of an existing visa is a confirmation of employment from your company.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 07:58
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: HK
Age: 50
Posts: 116
What would the dishonest agenda.be?

pilots loose their jobs for underperforming on sim checks, line training or line checks, redundancy for financial reasons is a different story.
If you claim that the airline can pick who they want then you might get lucky or not, you'll see on the next round.
However I am pretty sure that no more locals will be going this time, publicity is not good.

I don't think there is any tactics being used and I reckon that LEGCO has way more important matters at hands these days than 400 PR redundant pilots and couple thousand of local CC who lost their jobs.
Just a fact, HKE and CX were still hiring 6 months ago when it was already obvious that something was wrong.
I have nothing against pilots who joined, they didn't steal my job but swire moved my job to a subsidiary company using these pilots and that's the way it is.
To me this is really unfair but it's the way it is and whatever we're writing here won't change a thing.

Last edited by bacou; 14th Nov 2020 at 08:20.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 09:17
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 54
Nice one SW1, for digging out that form and establishing the facts.

A lot of the posts in this thread have been designed to scare people, purely out of spite and bitterness for the predicament they unfortunately find themselves in.

I also have spoken to a relevant HR department and they told me no issues regarding renewal of a work permit, however initial work permit requests are not expected to be applied for, at least for a couple of years.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 10:58
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
Posts: 180
The same hr department that announced no more redundancies on Monday,however, half of fop disappeared on Thursday? A word of wise to the new kid on the block, don’t trust a word they say.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 11:00
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 15
[QUOTE=bacou;10926179]What would the dishonest agenda.be?

pilots loose their jobs for underperforming on sim checks, line training or line checks, redundancy for financial reasons is a different story.
If you claim that the airline can pick who they want then you might get lucky or not, you'll see on the next round.
However I am pretty sure that no more locals will be going this time, publicity is not good.

I don't think there is any tactics being used and I reckon that LEGCO has way more important matters at hands these days than 400 PR redundant pilots and couple thousand of local CC who lost their jobs.
Just a fact, HKE and CX were still hiring 6 months ago when it was already obvious that something was wrong.



I have nothing against pilots who joined, they didn't steal my job but swire moved my job to a subsidiary company using these pilots and that's the way it is..[/QUOTE


Watching people like you going on and on with this sense of entitlement is amusing,

Dishonest because itís a narrative based on your interpretation / assumption of how the policy on work permits will be implemented.
A narrative that remains unproven.

You can go on believing it if you want. Iím pretty sure if and when the next round of redundancies occur, it will be across the board. Expats and locals.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 11:02
  #99 (permalink)  
SW1
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Victoria
Posts: 442
Just a fact, HKE and CX were still hiring 6 months ago when it was already obvious that something was wrong.
I have nothing against pilots who joined, /QUOTE]

which once again take up with your employer,the swire group ,that was under government oversight from June this year. As if it was a last minute rescue and they hadnt been talking about this in secret from March onwards. I hate to say it but Hong Kong has changed significantly in the past year.

Last edited by SW1; 15th Nov 2020 at 01:40.
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Old 14th Nov 2020, 11:08
  #100 (permalink)  
Rie
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Wan Chai
Posts: 181
SW1, HK is a shell of the place that I came to in the 00's. Promises were left behind with the morals a long time ago.

The HKE hiring that happened last year was inconceivable. You had people from EK and other full service carries jumping ship before the inevitable firings to go into a LCC yet HKE didn't have a single plane in the sky.

The grand plan will reveal itself next year I guess.
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