Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Total War

Old 5th Nov 2020, 10:58
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Rie

Nobody's blaming you for signing COS 18. Though I'd suggest that many expats rebuilt careers after 9/11 and GFC after being grounded a long period of time. So the same will happen again post-COVID is my guess.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 13:40
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Near Miss

exactly my point! There is no difference between those that signed across, and those that ‘ accepted a substandard contract’. I am not taking joy in anyone’s misfortune. I think anyone currently involved in the airline industry ( not just cx) are experiencing some sort of misfortune, and there is no end in sight.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 16:36
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"We are all now POW's."

Wrong - POW's had rights - you're all in a Concentration Camp for the foreseeable future - no way out, no rights, no say and no-one outside is at all interested in you

But you do have a job flying aeroplanes - which is probably better than delivering pizza to keep your family
Hahaha are you really comparing a frustrating/costly reduction in terms of an employment contract unfavourably with the rights of POWs? Get a grip.

I actually do have sympathy for all the A/B/C scalers who are effectively being forced to sign this new permanent contract - it's certainly a significant blow to your life plans and you will need to make a downward adjustment in your lifestyle. But you are free to leave, no-one is trying to kill you, and your labour is still fairly well rewarded - this is not a concentration camp.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 20:54
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Clog View Post
The only option for these junior pilots was to come to Cathay undermining our contracts? There were NO other jobs out there in 2018-2019? Cathay lapped them up, and you can't blame Cathay - if pilots with virtually no experience were willing to undercut current cx pilots, then great, welcome aboard!

In the current circumstances, there are NO jobs out there to go to. So those of us forced onto COS18 have to choose between unemployment and never flying again once they become uncurrent (12 months), or sign over to COS18.

There is a wee bit of difference there me thinks.
So, you joined on A scale?
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Old 6th Nov 2020, 01:15
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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controlledrest

In this "total war", who is the enemy? Management, right? Management is hired by the board. The board is appointed by shareholders. Are shareholders the enemy too?

But please look at what shareholders did in the last few months. They knew there would be no dividend for quite a while. Yet they put in new capital of over HK$10 billion. There is no guarantee they will get it back. Part of that money has been used to pay employees. If shareholders didn't put in new capital, I don't think the government would save the company by itself.

Employers and employees can fight for a bigger share of any business. But it's not a war. If any side does things like it's a war, both sides lose.

Last edited by redfish777; 7th Nov 2020 at 01:55.
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Old 7th Nov 2020, 17:17
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An interesting interpretation of the last 20 years of industrial relations between the Company and its employee groups. The war didn't just start.

Make no mistake, investors are protecting their investment, nothing else.
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 07:26
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Originally Posted by Flying Clog View Post
The only option for these junior pilots was to come to Cathay undermining our contracts? There were NO other jobs out there in 2018-2019? Cathay lapped them up, and you can't blame Cathay - if pilots with virtually no experience were willing to undercut current cx pilots, then great, welcome aboard!
Agree. How can any pathetic pilot outside CX have the audacity to want to further their career and "undermine" YOUR contract? We all know they had thousands of other opportunities. You would have NEVER done the same if you were in their position, right?

Congrats, you just dethroned cxorcist as the biggest POES on this forum!
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 09:09
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The rot started with ‘B’ Scale... when pilots looking for jobs undermined the ‘A’ Scale contract...
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 09:17
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Correct! The hypocrisy of some B scalers on here pointing the finger at others who signed lesser contracts than themselves is laughable. The same B scalers who have now signed cos 18 in a heartbeat rather than leaving with conviction and their dignity intact.

Talk about living in a bubble for the past 20 years.

P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!

Last edited by YellowFever777; 9th Nov 2020 at 10:51.
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 09:21
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The only ones to blame for the rot beginning are those A scalers who sat doing nothing whilst CX introduced lower conditions and the trainers who trained their cheaper replacements.

Blaming this on someone looking for a job, obviously taking the best option available to them, is the most ludicrous argument I have heard.
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Old 9th Nov 2020, 10:26
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...and those remaining ex-A scalers have just signed on again for even less. I wonder what the outcome would have been in the last 25yrs if they had ever shown any resistance?

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Old 10th Nov 2020, 05:59
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But they did! Vandalising the Star ferry with a "HKAOA Contract = Career" sticker , when nobody was looking.
Real unity inspiration there. At least they tried.

Last edited by Koan; 10th Nov 2020 at 10:35.
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 10:21
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Farman Biplane

The airline would have gone bust sooner
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 10:36
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Koan

I think they got that the wrong way round. It should have said - no contract and no career.
A far more accurate reflection of the situation
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 12:43
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And the blame game continues.
I would love to see what the current ?-scalers will do when the market picks up again and the next generation of ?+1-scalers come knocking at cxís door to take your job for 50-75% of the current pos18.
Donít think it canít happen. People are currently flying for free in Vietnam.
But Iím sure this time itíll be different and the pilot population will take a stand and tell management they will not accept this degradation of their cos....

100.000+ unemployed pilots on the market, but Iím sure weíll be fine....
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 13:27
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Meanwhile your bosses took a 1 year 15% paycut and yet nobody blinks an eye.
Keep fighting each other boys.
STW, how is that cancellation of cc and tb working out for you? Back to working G days?
Or are you already at your 35 hours this month?
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 15:08
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by redfish777 View Post
controlledrest

Are shareholders the enemy too?
Shareholders are pensionfunds or individuals, who have a little extra, trying to polster themselves for their retirement.... which means..... we are figthing ourselves
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 16:35
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Piet! I missed you

We actualy did CC etc exactly as YOU wanted.I did all that too, never worked a single G day, waited for hours and hours in the crew lounge because I wasn't allowed to acknowledge roster changes, even wore that ridiculous stupid silly clownish red lanyard. I did all that although I voted against rejecting a payrise and then against rejecting a 10 year ARAPA deal.

What more do you need to acknowledge that is was in vain?? I did not break out of the picket line, don't blame me. Accept it, in HK unions are useless. Nobody ever cared really what we want, it is down to pure market forces, always was, always will be.
Speaking of market forces: You either signed over or you are based ( which you denied) or you are no longer with us. Enlighten me please.

My money is on you signed over, as did cxorcist.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 10th Nov 2020 at 16:45.
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 16:42
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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How much money did you bet? I bet itís not even worth a beer, you cheapskate, but I would give you my bankaccountnumber nonetheless.
The reason why unions in HKG are useless is because the members have always been.
ĒIím allright JackĒ has always been the motto.
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Old 10th Nov 2020, 17:03
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Piet, just think for a minute. All airlines worldwide layoff people, 99% of all airlines pay less now than 20 years ago after inflation, all fly more, less rest, sleep in mediocre hotels, less allowances, less pension, later retirement etc. LCC airlines pay peanuts everywhere. At the same time recruitment extended to countries with lower wages, and globally young people still wanted to do this job. I bet anything I have, even as we speak, in the midst of a pandemic, thousands of 18 year old boys dream about becoming a pilot.Unions in HK are powerless, legislation is against us.

And still you blame me? Come on, this doesn't make sense.It's absurd.

Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge the power of market forces?

Our industry is in decline, nothing in the world will stop that.

So, what are you up to now? Retired? Come on, spit it out.

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 10th Nov 2020 at 17:34.
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