Total War
Joined: Jun 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,238
Likes: 218
From: Eden Valley
Rie
Nobody's blaming you for signing COS 18. Though I'd suggest that many expats rebuilt careers after 9/11 and GFC after being grounded a long period of time. So the same will happen again post-COVID is my guess.
Nobody's blaming you for signing COS 18. Though I'd suggest that many expats rebuilt careers after 9/11 and GFC after being grounded a long period of time. So the same will happen again post-COVID is my guess.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
From: All over
Near Miss
exactly my point! There is no difference between those that signed across, and those that ‘ accepted a substandard contract’. I am not taking joy in anyone’s misfortune. I think anyone currently involved in the airline industry ( not just cx) are experiencing some sort of misfortune, and there is no end in sight.
exactly my point! There is no difference between those that signed across, and those that ‘ accepted a substandard contract’. I am not taking joy in anyone’s misfortune. I think anyone currently involved in the airline industry ( not just cx) are experiencing some sort of misfortune, and there is no end in sight.
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 183
Likes: 41
From: UK
"We are all now POW's."
Wrong - POW's had rights - you're all in a Concentration Camp for the foreseeable future - no way out, no rights, no say and no-one outside is at all interested in you
But you do have a job flying aeroplanes - which is probably better than delivering pizza to keep your family
Wrong - POW's had rights - you're all in a Concentration Camp for the foreseeable future - no way out, no rights, no say and no-one outside is at all interested in you
But you do have a job flying aeroplanes - which is probably better than delivering pizza to keep your family
I actually do have sympathy for all the A/B/C scalers who are effectively being forced to sign this new permanent contract - it's certainly a significant blow to your life plans and you will need to make a downward adjustment in your lifestyle. But you are free to leave, no-one is trying to kill you, and your labour is still fairly well rewarded - this is not a concentration camp.
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 504
Likes: 1
From: one country, one system
The only option for these junior pilots was to come to Cathay undermining our contracts? There were NO other jobs out there in 2018-2019? Cathay lapped them up, and you can't blame Cathay - if pilots with virtually no experience were willing to undercut current cx pilots, then great, welcome aboard!
In the current circumstances, there are NO jobs out there to go to. So those of us forced onto COS18 have to choose between unemployment and never flying again once they become uncurrent (12 months), or sign over to COS18.
There is a wee bit of difference there me thinks.
In the current circumstances, there are NO jobs out there to go to. So those of us forced onto COS18 have to choose between unemployment and never flying again once they become uncurrent (12 months), or sign over to COS18.
There is a wee bit of difference there me thinks.
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: hong kong
controlledrest
In this "total war", who is the enemy? Management, right? Management is hired by the board. The board is appointed by shareholders. Are shareholders the enemy too?
But please look at what shareholders did in the last few months. They knew there would be no dividend for quite a while. Yet they put in new capital of over HK$10 billion. There is no guarantee they will get it back. Part of that money has been used to pay employees. If shareholders didn't put in new capital, I don't think the government would save the company by itself.
Employers and employees can fight for a bigger share of any business. But it's not a war. If any side does things like it's a war, both sides lose.
In this "total war", who is the enemy? Management, right? Management is hired by the board. The board is appointed by shareholders. Are shareholders the enemy too?
But please look at what shareholders did in the last few months. They knew there would be no dividend for quite a while. Yet they put in new capital of over HK$10 billion. There is no guarantee they will get it back. Part of that money has been used to pay employees. If shareholders didn't put in new capital, I don't think the government would save the company by itself.
Employers and employees can fight for a bigger share of any business. But it's not a war. If any side does things like it's a war, both sides lose.
Last edited by redfish777; 7th November 2020 at 00:55.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
From: nfa
An interesting interpretation of the last 20 years of industrial relations between the Company and its employee groups. The war didn't just start.
Make no mistake, investors are protecting their investment, nothing else.
Make no mistake, investors are protecting their investment, nothing else.
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 150
Likes: 20
From: HK
The only option for these junior pilots was to come to Cathay undermining our contracts? There were NO other jobs out there in 2018-2019? Cathay lapped them up, and you can't blame Cathay - if pilots with virtually no experience were willing to undercut current cx pilots, then great, welcome aboard!
Congrats, you just dethroned cxorcist as the biggest POES on this forum!
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: HK
Correct! The hypocrisy of some B scalers on here pointing the finger at others who signed lesser contracts than themselves is laughable. The same B scalers who have now signed cos 18 in a heartbeat rather than leaving with conviction and their dignity intact.
Talk about living in a bubble for the past 20 years.
P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!
Talk about living in a bubble for the past 20 years.
P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!
Last edited by YellowFever777; 9th November 2020 at 09:51.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,060
Likes: 62
From: HKG
The only ones to blame for the rot beginning are those A scalers who sat doing nothing whilst CX introduced lower conditions and the trainers who trained their cheaper replacements.
Blaming this on someone looking for a job, obviously taking the best option available to them, is the most ludicrous argument I have heard.
Blaming this on someone looking for a job, obviously taking the best option available to them, is the most ludicrous argument I have heard.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 214
Likes: 8
From: 43N
But they did! Vandalising the Star ferry with a "HKAOA Contract = Career" sticker , when nobody was looking.
Real unity inspiration there. At least they tried.
Real unity inspiration there. At least they tried.
Last edited by Koan; 10th November 2020 at 09:35.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
From: Vermont
And the blame game continues.
I would love to see what the current ?-scalers will do when the market picks up again and the next generation of ?+1-scalers come knocking at cx’s door to take your job for 50-75% of the current pos18.
Don’t think it can’t happen. People are currently flying for free in Vietnam.
But I’m sure this time it’ll be different and the pilot population will take a stand and tell management they will not accept this degradation of their cos....
100.000+ unemployed pilots on the market, but I’m sure we’ll be fine....
I would love to see what the current ?-scalers will do when the market picks up again and the next generation of ?+1-scalers come knocking at cx’s door to take your job for 50-75% of the current pos18.
Don’t think it can’t happen. People are currently flying for free in Vietnam.
But I’m sure this time it’ll be different and the pilot population will take a stand and tell management they will not accept this degradation of their cos....
100.000+ unemployed pilots on the market, but I’m sure we’ll be fine....
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
From: Vermont
Meanwhile your bosses took a 1 year 15% paycut and yet nobody blinks an eye.
Keep fighting each other boys.
STW, how is that cancellation of cc and tb working out for you? Back to working G days?
Or are you already at your 35 hours this month?
Keep fighting each other boys.
STW, how is that cancellation of cc and tb working out for you? Back to working G days?
Or are you already at your 35 hours this month?
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
From: Way north
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 504
Likes: 1
From: one country, one system
Piet! I missed you 
We actualy did CC etc exactly as YOU wanted.I did all that too, never worked a single G day, waited for hours and hours in the crew lounge because I wasn't allowed to acknowledge roster changes, even wore that ridiculous stupid silly clownish red lanyard. I did all that although I voted against rejecting a payrise and then against rejecting a 10 year ARAPA deal.
What more do you need to acknowledge that is was in vain?? I did not break out of the picket line, don't blame me. Accept it, in HK unions are useless. Nobody ever cared really what we want, it is down to pure market forces, always was, always will be.
Speaking of market forces: You either signed over or you are based ( which you denied) or you are no longer with us. Enlighten me please.
My money is on you signed over, as did cxorcist.
We actualy did CC etc exactly as YOU wanted.I did all that too, never worked a single G day, waited for hours and hours in the crew lounge because I wasn't allowed to acknowledge roster changes, even wore that ridiculous stupid silly clownish red lanyard. I did all that although I voted against rejecting a payrise and then against rejecting a 10 year ARAPA deal.
What more do you need to acknowledge that is was in vain?? I did not break out of the picket line, don't blame me. Accept it, in HK unions are useless. Nobody ever cared really what we want, it is down to pure market forces, always was, always will be.
Speaking of market forces: You either signed over or you are based ( which you denied) or you are no longer with us. Enlighten me please.
My money is on you signed over, as did cxorcist.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 10th November 2020 at 15:45.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
From: Vermont
How much money did you bet? I bet it’s not even worth a beer, you cheapskate, but I would give you my bankaccountnumber nonetheless.
The reason why unions in HKG are useless is because the members have always been.
”I’m allright Jack” has always been the motto.
The reason why unions in HKG are useless is because the members have always been.
”I’m allright Jack” has always been the motto.
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 504
Likes: 1
From: one country, one system
Piet, just think for a minute. All airlines worldwide layoff people, 99% of all airlines pay less now than 20 years ago after inflation, all fly more, less rest, sleep in mediocre hotels, less allowances, less pension, later retirement etc. LCC airlines pay peanuts everywhere. At the same time recruitment extended to countries with lower wages, and globally young people still wanted to do this job. I bet anything I have, even as we speak, in the midst of a pandemic, thousands of 18 year old boys dream about becoming a pilot.Unions in HK are powerless, legislation is against us.
And still you blame me? Come on, this doesn't make sense.It's absurd.
Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge the power of market forces?
Our industry is in decline, nothing in the world will stop that.
So, what are you up to now? Retired? Come on, spit it out.
And still you blame me? Come on, this doesn't make sense.It's absurd.
Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge the power of market forces?
Our industry is in decline, nothing in the world will stop that.
So, what are you up to now? Retired? Come on, spit it out.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 10th November 2020 at 16:34.